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The fallen Wizard of N˙menor | The Tolkien Archives

Eruonen
Valinor


Nov 12 2021, 10:31pm

Post #1 of 15 (1455 views)
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The fallen Wizard of N˙menor | The Tolkien Archives Can't Post

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7ihyQEHs7g

I did not realize that at one point The Witchking may have been considered a fallen Istari......hmm. However, could an Istari have been ensnared by a ring for men?


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Nov 12 2021, 10:32pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 13 2021, 2:46am

Post #2 of 15 (1427 views)
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Hmm [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, Gandalf refused to take the One Ring (except to handle it briefly in Bag End). Perhaps one of the Great Rings would also pose a temptation to an Incarnate Maiar?

#FidelityToTolkien
#ChallengeExpectations


Eruonen
Valinor


Nov 13 2021, 2:57am

Post #3 of 15 (1425 views)
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I will have to research if the rings were made specifically for each race [In reply to] Can't Post

or if they would all work if taken up by anyone.....the dwarven rings might make men more greedy, the rings for men might have made the elves more domineering etc.

"The nineteen lesser Rings were linked somehow to the power of the One, and were dependent on it. Their wearers could be controlled by the wearer of the One, and if the One was destroyed, their own powers would fade with the power of the Rings under the One."

Odd too that the dwarven rings did not turn them into ring wraiths but merely greedy to the point of ruin

Interesting question as to the effect of one of the lesser rings on an Istari.

In the end, it appears Tolkien moved away from that concept of the Witch King and made him mortal man.


https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Rings_of_Power


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Nov 13 2021, 2:57am)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 13 2021, 4:14pm

Post #4 of 15 (1405 views)
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I think that you will find... [In reply to] Can't Post

...that the Great Rings were not made with any single race in mind, unless you consider that Sauron's original intention was to use the Rings to corrupt and control the Elves. The exception being the Three Rings of the Elves that Celebrimbor crafted on his own. The Nine and the Seven essentially all have the same characteristics, although they vary in power from one to another. The Nine would affect dwarves the same way as the Seven. And the Seven would have the same effects upon Men as the Nine.

#FidelityToTolkien
#ChallengeExpectations


Eruonen
Valinor


Nov 13 2021, 8:26pm

Post #5 of 15 (1393 views)
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I wonder why men were turned into ring wraiths but not the dwarves [In reply to] Can't Post

All you can probably surmise is that their constitution is different.


VoronwŰ_the_Faithful
Valinor

Nov 14 2021, 2:01am

Post #6 of 15 (1373 views)
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From "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
The Dwarves indeed proved tough and hard to tame; they ill endure the domination of others, and the thoughts of their hearts are hard to fathom, nor can they be turned to shadows. They used their rings only for the getting of wealth; but wrath and an over-mastering greed of gold were kindled in their hearts, of which evil enough after came to the profit of Sauron. It is said that the foundation of each of the Seven Hoards of the Dwarf-kings of old was a golden ring; but all those hoards long ago were plundered and the Dragons devoured them, and of the Seven Rings some were consumed in fire and some Sauron recovered.


'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Eruonen
Valinor


Nov 14 2021, 2:18am

Post #7 of 15 (1368 views)
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Nice find, so the good professor considered the issue [In reply to] Can't Post

and the dwarves were resistant to wraithdom.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 14 2021, 2:53am

Post #8 of 15 (1365 views)
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VoronwŰ has it covered! [In reply to] Can't Post

I think his quote from Tolkien explains it pretty well.

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#ChallengeExpectations


Felagund
Lorien


Nov 14 2021, 11:25am

Post #9 of 15 (1349 views)
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'Of AulŰ and Yavanna' [In reply to] Can't Post

To add to what VoronwŰ the Faithful has provided, the above chapter, which deals with the creation of the Dwarves in The Silmarillion also illustrates the hardiness of the Dwarves, and why this was the case (emphasis mine):


Quote
And AulŰ made the Dwarves even as they still are, because the forms of the Children who were to come were unclear in his mind, and because the power of Melkor was yet over the Earth; and he wished therefore that they should be strong and unyielding.



Quote
Since they [the Dwarves] were to come in the days of the power of Melkor, AulŰ made the Dwarves strong to endure. Therefore they are stone-hard, stubborn, fast in friendship and in enmity, and they suffer toil and hunger and hurt of body more hardily than all other speaking peoples...


Much of the above is about the physical resilience of the Dwarves but in combination with the previously quoted passage from 'Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age', we get a picture of a people specifically kitted out to endure the many travails a Dark Lord could possibly unleash upon the world.

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk


Eruonen
Valinor


Nov 14 2021, 2:50pm

Post #10 of 15 (1336 views)
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I was thinking about their special creation by Aule having an impact on their resistance [In reply to] Can't Post

 


VoronwŰ_the_Faithful
Valinor

Nov 14 2021, 9:54pm

Post #11 of 15 (1319 views)
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Such an odd chapter [In reply to] Can't Post

This is the one chapter of the Quenta Silmarillion in the published Silmarillion that never had an equivalent chapter in the Quenta Silmarillion as Tolkien wrote it, though virtually all the material in it was stuff that Tolkien did write. The portion regarding the Dwarves is taken from a manuscript headed "Of AulŰ and the Dwarves" that was wrapped in a paper with the words "Amended Legend of the Origin of Dwarves." This text was related to what was then chapter 13 of the Quenta, entitled "Concerning the Dwarves" (which in turn was taken from what had been Chapter 10 in the earlier Quenta, entitled "Of Men and Dwarves." The last paragraph of the section that deals with the Dwarves is taken directly from that chapter 13. Apparently Christopher felt that the story of the origin of the Dwarves needed to be earlier in the text than his father choose to include it, though to my knowledge he (Christopher) never explained why he did that. The rest of the chapter is then taken from a completely unrelated text called "Of the Ents and the Eagles" (which was originally entitled "Anaxertamel") There is no indication that Tolkien ever had any intention of including this text in the Quenta Silmarillion, so it's inclusion is quite curious.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire

(This post was edited by VoronwŰ_the_Faithful on Nov 14 2021, 9:55pm)


InTheChair
Rohan

Nov 15 2021, 10:05pm

Post #12 of 15 (1247 views)
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He was called the Wizard-king [In reply to] Can't Post

In some early drafts of Lord of the Rings, potentially one of Gandalfs order, though it is also not certain that the concept of what the Istari became was fully developed at that time, and the order may have included incarnate Men.

There's an interesting quote in one of those early drafts, I think it goes something like, he (the wizard-king) put his ring on and became Nazgul, suggesting that perhaps Tolkien at one point considered that the leader of the Nazgul still possessed his own ring and still had the ability to go between the real world and the shadow world.

Though any such hints seem dropped in the final released version of Lord of the Rings.


(This post was edited by InTheChair on Nov 15 2021, 10:06pm)


Solicitr
Gondor


Nov 26 2021, 3:57pm

Post #13 of 15 (1083 views)
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Wizard King [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
In some early drafts of Lord of the Rings, potentially one of Gandalfs order, though it is also not certain that the concept of what the Istari became was fully developed at that time, and the order may have included incarnate Men.

There's an interesting quote in one of those early drafts, I think it goes something like, he (the wizard-king) put his ring on and became Nazgul, suggesting that perhaps Tolkien at one point considered that the leader of the Nazgul still possessed his own ring and still had the ability to go between the real world and the shadow world.

Though any such hints seem dropped in the final released version of Lord of the Rings.


As late as the early writing of Book V it seems Tolkien had not really hit upon the idea of the Istari and was unsure of what "wizards" really were, other than perhaps Men who had acquired sorcerous powers (and thus presumably very long life.) At various points Gandalf calls the "Wizard King" "the greatest of the Wizards of Men" and "once the greatest of my Order, before he fell into evil" - and it had been established long, long before that all of the Nine were mortal Men, not Elves or Ainur.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 26 2021, 4:18pm

Post #14 of 15 (1079 views)
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Mannish Istari [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
In some early drafts of Lord of the Rings, potentially one of Gandalfs order, though it is also not certain that the concept of what the Istari became was fully developed at that time, and the order may have included incarnate Men.

There's an interesting quote in one of those early drafts, I think it goes something like, he (the wizard-king) put his ring on and became Nazgul, suggesting that perhaps Tolkien at one point considered that the leader of the Nazgul still possessed his own ring and still had the ability to go between the real world and the shadow world.

Though any such hints seem dropped in the final released version of Lord of the Rings.


This could tie into Tolkien's essay "The Itari" (dated to 1954 and reproduced in Unfinished Tales) where he wrote:


Quote
Of this Order [of the Istari] the number is unknown; but of those that came to the North of Middle-earth, where there was most hope (because of the remnant of the D˙nedain and of the Eldar that abode there), the chief were five.


Tolkien wrote nothing about the followers of the Five, so that number might have included Mannish wizards who learned from the chief Istari. The Wizard King might have been first conceived as one of those mortal followers who had fallen into evil.

#FidelityToTolkien
#ChallengeExpectations

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Nov 26 2021, 4:22pm)


Felagund
Lorien


Dec 17 2021, 1:17pm

Post #15 of 15 (737 views)
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I didn't know that! [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you for the fascinating insight into this text's journey into the published domain. Another example of what a great resource and community theonering.net provides for :)

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk

 
 

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