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Paulo Gabriel
Lorien
Jan 8 2021, 10:31am
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Tolkien and Atheism.
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I am an atheist, and have been so since, what? The age of 12, maybe. But I confess OPENLY that I LOVE Tolkien's works, and he is (was) a very devout Catholic, as is well-know.
Is there any discrepancy in these two things? Can atheists really ''enjoy'' Tolkien's legendarium? What would he, if anything, think of his atheist readers? Would have he rejected them? While we're at it, did Tolkien ever give any thought or opinion on his Letters or elsewhere, about atheism?
What do you think?
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squire
Half-elven
Jan 8 2021, 1:20pm
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Tolkien deliberately took out "explicit" references to religion when revising Lord of the Rings for publication
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My understanding is that he wanted the book's universal humanism to stand free of the kind of allegorical interpretations that it would have gotten if the hobbits, elves, dunedain, etc. were shown worshipping either the Valar or Eru Iluvatar.
There is no connection whatever to ones personal religious beliefs, including belief in no religion, and ones affection for or dislike of The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit. The Silmarillion, however, begs some questions - such as, whatever were the Valar thinking? or, if Eru can foresee everything, including Morgoth's evil, why does He tolerate it? Paging John Milton...
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Jan 9 2021, 6:13am
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Tolkien mentions atheism in a letter, as I recall.
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He says something about how he can't comprehend how someone couldn't believe in God's existence. (Obviously plenty of people can't comprehend how someone could do so.) But I don't think he would reject atheist readers.
Treachery, treachery I fear; treachery of that miserable creature.
But so it must be. Let us remember that a traitor may betray himself and do good that he does not intend.
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Discuss Tolkien's life and works in the Reading Room!
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dernwyn
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Jan 9 2021, 3:03pm
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I did a search in Letters, and was not able find any reference to "atheism" or "atheist", but did find this, from his 20 May 1969 letter to Camilla Unwin, who had asked him "What is the purpose of life?":
"If you do not believe in a personal God the question 'What is the purpose of life?' is unaskable and unanswerable. To whom or what would you address the question?"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Jan 9 2021, 7:36pm
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Maybe what I'm recalling isn't in Letters then. Or maybe I'm just misremembering.
Treachery, treachery I fear; treachery of that miserable creature.
But so it must be. Let us remember that a traitor may betray himself and do good that he does not intend.
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Alveric
Lorien
Jan 9 2021, 11:13pm
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There is a general question about enjoyment of stories by people with religious or political commitments with which one does not agree. That would probably mean 99% of everything! But it isn't really an issue most of the time, because good writers don't sermonize. Or perhaps, they embed their view of the world so deeply in the story, at least it's doesn't feel like being preached at. This is why (as a lifelong atheist) I can enjoy Tolkien and not Lewis. I am currently reading a lot of Muriel Spark (Catholic) and Barbara Pym (Anglican).
There are of course limits. Since my career has been in Religious Studies, I'm quite comfortable with religious disagreement; for me it's more often politics that gets me. After a certain writer or actor voices certain views that are utterly offensive to me, I just can't get past it. I can't watch anything by Mel Gibson any more, because all I see is the actor with his offensive views.
Alveric
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Jan 11 2021, 4:16am
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"subjects of supreme importance"
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There is an article on "Religion" in the second volume of Christina Scull and Wayne G. Hammond's The J.R.R. Tolkien Companion & Guide (I'm looking at the original book published in 2006; it has since been expanded to three volumes). In November 1914, Tolkien wrote this to his friend Christopher Wiseman about their fellow T.C.B.S. member G.B. Smith:
I personally for instance as long as he (say) remains unconvinced or not yet developed on the religious side can go on numbering him as a friend and as a TCBSian: his potentialities are simply as yet unknown: that is all: -- but as soon as enthusiasms or beliefs do develop, I demand to konw them and reweigh him. If he became an atheist or satanist, either he or I would leave the TCBS for ever.
That's not the comment I was (perhaps incorrectly) thinking of in my earlier post, though.
Treachery, treachery I fear; treachery of that miserable creature.
But so it must be. Let us remember that a traitor may betray himself and do good that he does not intend.
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<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Discuss Tolkien's life and works in the Reading Room!
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How to find old Reading Room discussions.
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mwirkk
Rohan
Jan 11 2021, 10:26pm
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No, he would not have; and Yes... yes you can. :)
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I definitely don't think Tolkien would not have rejected you. Though, he might have referred you to Lewis for some good old fashioned rehabilitation. No, sorry, but I jest. ;)
Much of the materials which Tolkien studied, taught about and used as sources for his secondary world were from the cultures of heathen origins. If there's a theological viewpoint embedded in his fiction, it's a humanistic one.
Cheers, Paulo. pax
The Black Knight Always Triumphs!!
-mwirkk :)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jan 12 2021, 6:13pm
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'A fundamentally [what] work'?
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Tolkien wrote
"The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like 'religion', to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism"....
Letters 142, December 1953, to Fr. Robert Murray S.J.
So
'If there's a theological viewpoint embedded in his fiction, it's a humanistic one.'
...is rather too bold a statement for me, I fear.
I think it's more the case that there isn't an 'embedded theological viewpoint' to find. Rather, 'the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism', and I think that allows readers to interpret and relate the story each to their own beliefs and views.
If you were to ask me for practical consequences of 'the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism', then I don't think I could do better than quote squire back in a 2015 discussion:
Tolkien, in calling his masterwork "fundamentally religious and Catholic", did not mean that LotR should be read as, say, an allegory of the Christian story (Frodo = Christ, Sauron = Satan, The Ring = Sin, etc.). What he meant was that Catholic morality and values pervade the book in, for instance, the characters' devotion to self-sacrifice and public duty, honest faith in a higher world to come, and a belief that their fate is the hands of a caring entity (who is never identified as a God). squire, 2015, here http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=747481#747481
That works for me, at least. Someone might tinker with squire's list of Catholic morality and values to substitute their own or try to complete the list, but I don't think that's the interesting thing here. I think it's more helpful to comment that these aren't exclusively Catholic morals and values. Quite likely someone could just as well recognize their own (non-Catholic or non-Christian) faith in that list. And would it be the case that 'a devotion to public duty and self-sacrifice despite having no faith in a higher world to come [etc.]' would be a reasonable approximation of the humanist view of things?
So I think that Tolkien deals in moral values that have quite widespread appeal, and I think that is why a 'fundamentally religious and Catholic work' appeals so widely and without turning away non-Catholics (or non-Christians, or non-theists). Which is great, or I'd have missed out on a lot of fun. But I think we need to acknowledge how Tolkien viewed his story, so I wanted to avoid the Catholicism being brushed under the carpet, if you take my meaning, sir.
And having found that old 2015 thread, I can't resist closing by quoting this, of which I'm still fond:
'Is this a fundamentally Catholic work?', asked Pippin, staring out of it with wonder. 'I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves. 'It is a fair work, and the writing is good, for it was made by a superbly talented author. It is a work by someone who felt he was fundamentally a Catholic, if that is what you mean. Devotion to self-sacrifice and public duty, honest faith in a higher world to come, and a belief that one's fate is the hands of a caring entity - those are there. And also the beauty of the countryside, and the pleasure of fine ale and a pipe with friends. The tale has all those; for he put the thought of all that he loved into what he made...' The elf broke off in a fit of sneezing. 'I do beg your forgiveness,' he continued. 'I seem to be developing an allegory..." http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=748009#748009
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"You were exceedingly clever once, but unfortunately none of your friends noticed as they were too busy being attacked by an octopus."
-from How To Tell If You Are In A J.R.R. Tolkien Book, by Austin Gilkeson, in 'The Toast', 2016 https://the-toast.net/...-a-jrr-tolkien-book/
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Jan 12 2021, 6:14pm)
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
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Jan 12 2021, 9:34pm
Post #10 of 15
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
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Paulo Gabriel
Lorien
Jan 13 2021, 7:44am
Post #11 of 15
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I agree that ''humanistic'' is not how I would describe the 'philosophy' of LOTR or other Legendarium works, especially if said humanism is the modern, naturalistic, non-theistic-oriented one. I think the whole Secondary World has quite strong Christian, especially Catholic, 'vibes' (yeah, lame terminology here).
Thanks so much to every one of you for your input to the discussion! 
(This post was edited by Paulo Gabriel on Jan 13 2021, 7:45am)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jan 13 2021, 11:35am
Post #12 of 15
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~~~~~~
"You were exceedingly clever once, but unfortunately none of your friends noticed as they were too busy being attacked by an octopus."
-from How To Tell If You Are In A J.R.R. Tolkien Book, by Austin Gilkeson, in 'The Toast', 2016 https://the-toast.net/...-a-jrr-tolkien-book/
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jan 13 2021, 12:16pm
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Our reader's relationships with authors are complex, aren't they?
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I remember that my initial reaction to Paulo Gabriel asking what Tolkien might have made of an atheist reader was that it runs the risk of finding out that Tolkien had actually said something rude or upsetting about atheists. Then I suppose PG would have to decide whether he could let that go, or whether (as you say, Alveric) it's just not possible to get past it. Bit of a risk.
I think that the 'not being able to get past it' an entirely understandable reaction. Or at least I too have been put off authors either because the authorial personality intruding into the work is disagreeable to me, or because I know something I can't get past about author themself. But sometimes I can separate the irritating or unsavoury creator from the creation, and still enjoy the work. It's a strange and a highly personal thing, and someone else would doubtless make different choices.
Our reader's relationships with favourite authors are complex and heartfelt, aren't they? I suppose that we end up with a sort of parasocial relationship with them (in our heads at least). It's easy for me to think that I'd get on well with Tolkien if I could somehow get to know him, because I like his work. That's only partly because what I infer about his values and personality chimes with me (or can be overlooked). But who knows what I'd make if him if we''d really been able to meet.
Tolkien is not an allegorist (unlike your example of CS Lewis) and he doesn't intrude his personality and opinions into the work as much as I think Lewis does. So the author's fingerprints on the work are more subtle. But one still sees (or thinks one sees) flickers of Tolkien's personality and opinions in his work. Perhaps it couldn't be any other way.
Logically that shouldn't matter at all. I don't need to be great mates with Tolkien (or to imagine that) in order to enjoy his work. And logic suggests (unhelpfully) that if Tolkien did despise atheists (or any other group) he still can't do a single thing about atheists enjoying his work, or stop them from doing so for as long as they're able to find enjoyment in it. So this wanting to like a favourite author (or actor, or other creator) is perhaps an odd thing, but it's a very powerful one.
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"You were exceedingly clever once, but unfortunately none of your friends noticed as they were too busy being attacked by an octopus."
-from How To Tell If You Are In A J.R.R. Tolkien Book, by Austin Gilkeson, in 'The Toast', 2016 https://the-toast.net/...-a-jrr-tolkien-book/
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Alveric
Lorien
Jan 14 2021, 11:08pm
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Paulo asks (rhetorically),
Can atheists really ''enjoy'' Tolkien's legendarium?
I say rhetorically because in fact we do, as is clear.
But this is important: the best way an atheist can enjoy (enter into, identify with, live and breathe) a religious worldview is precisely by taking it as legendarium. The way a scientist can accept magic is within the "willing suspension of disbelief" which occurs when we enjoy a story. I don't believe the Gospels to be true but I can feel their power, at least to the same extent that I can feel the power of LOTR and other great works of fiction. Tolkien said that fairy stories and the Gospels both come from a common root, by which I think he means the influence of God in the world, which structures the best kinds of stories to illustrate the eucatastrophe and provide Consolation from death. And then he adds, but the Gospels are actually True. The Theology I can't accept, but I find in Tolkien's writings about this a kind of conceptual space for tapping into the great potency of religious stories without actually having to believe them to be true.
Alveric
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Paulo Gabriel
Lorien
Jan 21 2021, 11:47am
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This stuff about not being able to 'get past' something personal about the author of any piece of work/art is very interesting indeed. Case in point, one of my favorite manga series, Rurouni Kenshin. The mangaka was arrested for possession of child pornography, which is a crime in Japan. Some of his fans could not get past that, and I suppose stopped supporting his 'franchise' in any way, especially financially. I, personally, still enjoy this series. I can separate an author from his/her art. I admit that's a messy and complicated thing to do, however.
(This post was edited by Paulo Gabriel on Jan 21 2021, 11:50am)
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