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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
“...he left the hill of Cerin Amroth,

SirDennisC
Half-elven


Nov 24 2020, 3:11pm

Post #1 of 15 (2089 views)
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“...he left the hill of Cerin Amroth, Can't Post

and came there never again as living man.”

I feel that I should know the answer to this question, but did Aragorn ever return in any other way to Cerin Amroth? As a follow up, did Cerin Amroth take on a different aspect over time, or did it exist in some way, outside of time perhaps, beyond being a material place in Middle-earth?


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Nov 24 2020, 6:18pm

Post #2 of 15 (2026 views)
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Speaking of life after death. [In reply to] Can't Post

Notice the way that the deaths of Denethor and the Witch-king are described.

Another parallel to ponder: "The rider was robed all in black, and black was his lofty helm; yet this was no Ringwraith but a living man."

Finally, as has been noted before in the Reading Room, the chapter "Lothlórien" is framed by Aragorn addressing someone not physically present whom he cares deeply for but cannot be with because, as he says, there are "roads" he must travel.


Treachery, treachery I fear; treachery of that miserable creature.

But so it must be. Let us remember that a traitor may betray himself and do good that he does not intend.


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SirDennisC
Half-elven


Nov 25 2020, 12:22am

Post #3 of 15 (2007 views)
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Oh, I see - [In reply to] Can't Post

you introduced this idea not very long ago; sorry I missed your post at the time. (I was delayed.)

Now I reckon by the phrases you highlighted that you noticed something left unsaid, or perhaps implied? If you'll allow, these are the relevant words from the lines you shared:

"...and came there never again as living man."
"...nor was ever again seen by mortal men."
"...and was never heard again in that age of the world."

Is this a similar exercise to squire prompting us to unpack the meaning of "all Wizards"? Or am I, and you perhaps, and others apparently, ascribing something to the words where nothing more was intended?

I was rather hoping there was some letter, or hint left elsewhere by Tolkien regarding the matter of life after death in Middle-earth. But also, I'm interested in the place, as it is described in "Lothlórien". It does seem a place that exists outside of time, which triggers vivid memories. Are you suggesting that when Aragorn says farewell to Arwen, it is because in a sense she is already buried there, though she still lived in that moment in Middle-earth? (I'm leaning that way too.)

Perhaps Tolkien is simply, though not so simply saying that this place was a doorway through memory and time, but not necessarily linear time. Was it something about the place itself, or because it was part of a memory, or where enduring love was birthed? Or was it all owing to the Lady of the Wood--did the power leave when Galadriel left for instance?

Does the journey West wrap around and lead to a new Heart of Elvendom at Cerin Amroth?

(Still pondering the parallel of the rider robed in black being a living man. Hell on Earth? *sips tea* hmmm)


(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Nov 25 2020, 12:26am)


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Nov 25 2020, 7:46am

Post #4 of 15 (1981 views)
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Thou fool. [In reply to] Can't Post

No, not you!

But it occurred to me that there's another notable example of "living man" in the book.

"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"

Does that mean a dead man could hinder him?

There was a debate about 15 years ago about whether the people of Gondor's southern fiefs were referring to Aragorn when they cried "The King of the Dead is com upon us!" and then "fled before the face of Aragorn." Margaret Sinex, in her contribution to one of Jane Chance's anthologies, said that they were. NZ Strider agreed with her here, but he said she was sloppy with her medieval sources. David Bratman liked her piece except for her claim about Aragorn being mistaken for the King of the Dead. I argued here that Sinex was right; as I recall, my analysis turned on the capitalization of the word "Lord," seeing a parallel between Aragorn as King of the Dead and Lord of the Rings, although some of that may have been an artefact from Tolkien's drafts. Dmitra Fimi wrote me to say that maybe Tolkien was being deliberately ambiguous and wanted us to be unsure.

If not for Aragorn, would Éowyn even be on the Pelennor Field to face the Witch-king? Did he, the King of the Dead, thus hinder the one that no living man could stop?


Treachery, treachery I fear; treachery of that miserable creature.

But so it must be. Let us remember that a traitor may betray himself and do good that he does not intend.


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<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Discuss Tolkien's life and works in the Reading Room!
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
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SirDennisC
Half-elven


Nov 25 2020, 4:13pm

Post #5 of 15 (1974 views)
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“It has been called that before...” [In reply to] Can't Post

Probably also by you!

“Ambiguous,” is where one lands often when considering what Tolkien may have intended. Still there is plenty to suggest in the chapters spent in Lothlórien that time and existence (essence) was not ordinary, as if a kind of Heaven (for lack of a better word) was superimposed over the material space. What I can’t put my finger on is whether it was owing to the place, the Lady, or the love and troths made there.

There is also plenty to suggest that something like magic, definitely metaphysical, determined the very being of some characters: whether life after death or death in life, who can say. It was subjective though, according to his purposes in any given part of Tolkien’s tale.

Yes, ambiguous, leaving each to draw their own conclusions, perhaps lest the tales be ruined by seeming preachy.


(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Nov 25 2020, 4:18pm)


InTheChair
Rohan

Nov 25 2020, 11:49pm

Post #6 of 15 (1928 views)
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No [In reply to] Can't Post

It has always been my impression that as a Man, Aragorn cannot have any kind of after-life within the World, and therefore could never have revisited Cerin Amroth, unless as a living Man. Which it is explicitly stated he did not.


squire
Half-elven


Nov 26 2020, 1:40am

Post #7 of 15 (1932 views)
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I imagine the phrasing allows for visits "in spirit" or "in memory" or "in desire" [In reply to] Can't Post

(And in Aragorn's case, he may have indulged himself by using the palantir to view the site!)

But as per my reply header, I think the phrase "never again as living man" reminds us that Middle-earth is a far more spiritual place than our real world - that is, more spiritual in the sense of the spirit life and spirit world being a "real" part of the universe, rather than imagined or projected or postulated.

Aragorn as a Dunedain and as royalty has more spiritual power, and control over it, than most Men. Remember his ability to listen to the earth for news, his entering the fever-dreams of Faramir, Eowyn, and Merry, and his identification with the 'race' of Elrond Half-elven in the realm of healing power. I read the passage as meaning he 'returned' to Cerin Amroth in those ways, just not by actual physical visit.



squire online:
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SirDennisC
Half-elven


Nov 27 2020, 3:35pm

Post #8 of 15 (1871 views)
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This seems reasonable - [In reply to] Can't Post

Interesting, the way you describe the tension between how something that in the real world may be considered a matter of opinion is, in a work of fiction, incontrovertible if the author put it there. Tolkien built the supernatural into his tale; therefore it is a fact, undeniably woven with the fabric of Middle-earth. There is freedom oddly, in being spared the debate whether the spiritual is real in Tolkien’s creation. What is left for us is to detect and describe it, which here you have done well I think.

Listening to the introduction to The Lord of the Rings again, I am reminded that Tolkien was not interested in converting or bearing down on readers overmuch through his works (any more than he was trying to turn us against millers). Instead he graciously left readers to draw their own conclusions on many points. Therefore worrit that when he described, or merely hinted at spiritual things, such as life after death, that he was also describing aspects of the real world can be set aside. (Though I wonder if the mothballs in Bilbo’s drawers where like mothballs as we today know them?)


(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Nov 27 2020, 3:40pm)


noWizardme
Half-elven


Nov 27 2020, 4:34pm

Post #9 of 15 (1860 views)
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"A timeless land..." [In reply to] Can't Post

Just before the passage about Aragorn, we get this account from Frodo's perspective:


Quote
“Though he walked and breathed, and about him living leaves and flowers were stirred by the same cool wind as fanned his face, Frodo felt that he was in a timeless land that did not fade or change or fall into forgetfulness. When he had gone and passed again into the outer world, still Frodo the wanderer from the Shire would walk there, upon the grass among elanor and niphredil in fair Lothlórien.

They entered the circle of white trees. As they did so the South Wind blew upon Cerin Amroth and sighed among the branches. Frodo stood still, hearing far off great seas upon beaches that had long ago been washed away, and sea-birds crying whose race had perished from the earth.”


What to make of that? If taken literally, Frodo is in some way still there after he's gone. Maybe it's not to be taken literally and as per squire's suggestion, Lorien is a place that can be visited in memory (or similar). But I suppose it could be interpreted as an observation that time in Lorien is very strange indeed. For example, maybe something that has once happened continues to happen like a sort of echo. Or perhaps that is how it feels to Frodo, at least.

Related to this, and perhaps related to squire's point, I note a few other times where places in Middle-earth are spoken of as if they retain memories of earlier happenings. For example, Legolas says he can hear the stones of Hollin remembering the elves.

~~~~~~
"You were exceedingly clever once, but unfortunately none of your friends noticed as they were too busy being attacked by an octopus."
-from How To Tell If You Are In A J.R.R. Tolkien Book, by Austin Gilkeson, in 'The Toast', 2016 https://the-toast.net/...-a-jrr-tolkien-book/


CuriousG
Half-elven


Nov 27 2020, 7:49pm

Post #10 of 15 (1847 views)
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Echoes and good hauntings [In reply to] Can't Post

There seems to be a lot of geographical remembrance in this part of the world. You noted Legolas hears the stones of Hollin remembering the Noldor; he says that after Gandalf says "There is a wholesome air about Hollin. Much evil must befall a country before it wholly forgets the Elves, if once they dwelt there.’

Then after Moria, Gimli shows Frodo the Mirrormere, which somehow keeps the memory of the Crown of Durin alight in its waters. Later they come to the river Nimrodel, where the voices of both Nimrodel and Amroth can be almost heard, a memorial to them both.

Which brings us to Cerin Amroth, which seems like some special time vortex on Earth. Also a romantic spot, home to the loving duo of Nimrodel/Amroth, and a special place to Arwen & Aragorn. I wonder if Tolkien intended to hint that Aragorn never came back as "living man" along with the hint from the feeling Frodo has, that some version of him will be left behind. It's possible Tolkien imagined Aragorn's "primary soul" departed the world according to Tolkien's rules, while some echo of his soul came to Arwen's grave, presumably finding some echo of her as well, haunting the place in a good way, enduring beyond time the way Tol Morwen did from the First Age.

Getting engaged:

Quote
And on the evening of Midsummer Aragorn, Arathorn’s son, and Arwen daughter of Elrond went to the fair hill, Cerin Amroth, in the midst of the land, and they walked unshod on the undying grass with elanor and niphredil about their feet. And there upon that hill they looked east to the Shadow and west to the Twilight, and they plighted their troth and were glad.


Frodo seeing a younger version of Aragorn:

Quote
At the hill’s foot Frodo found Aragorn, standing still and silent as a tree; but in his hand was a small golden bloom of elanor, and a light was in his eyes. He was wrapped in some fair memory: and as Frodo looked at him he knew that he beheld things as they once had been in this same place. For the grim years were removed from the face of Aragorn, and he seemed clothed in white, a young lord tall and fair; and he spoke words in the Elvish tongue to one whom Frodo could not see. Arwen vanimelda, namárië! he said, and then he drew a breath, and returning out of his thought he looked at Frodo and smiled. ‘Here is the heart of Elvendom on earth,’ he said, ‘and here my heart dwells ever, unless there be a light beyond the dark roads that we still must tread, you and I.


Arwen's grave:

Quote
‘There at last when the mallorn-leaves were falling, but spring had not yet come, she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world is changed, and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after, and elanor and niphredil bloom no more east of the Sea.



CMackintosh
Rivendell

Nov 29 2020, 2:17am

Post #11 of 15 (1772 views)
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Elflands and Orclands [In reply to] Can't Post

For all his dislike of Old Irish, Tolkien seemed to have enjoyed the Old Irish Imram - the voyage tales - and for what it's worth, I do too. He wrote an Imram himself. I'm not sure it's been published yet. And one of the stories in Old Irish is the story of Oisin son of Fionn mac Cumhail, husband of the semi-divine woman Niamh Cinn-Óir (Golden-Hair), who takes him away to Tír na nÓg, where they live together for 300 years that seem to him only 3 years, and have three children before he gets homsick and asks to return to see his father, only to find that nobody remembers them, and in the attempt to help some of these enfeebled modern-day humans with something that he could do unaided, he falls onto the ground, loses his immortality and becomes an enfeebled ancient of days himself. And argues with Saint Patrick ...

Lothlorien is an otherland in the sense of Tír na nÓg, the Land of Youth, in the story of Niamh Cinn-Óir and Oisin son of Fionn mac Cumhail. Time is only partly linear there, and does not behave in quite the same way as it does in mortal lands. (It's a common trait of myth - I've read Papua New Guinean tales that involve a journey to the land of the spirits and returning, only to find that time is now out of kilter.)

So if Aragorn has some of the talent of his Elvish ancestors, he may walk there in memory again, with Arwen Undomiel, and it will be as if he was walking there as mortal man.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Nov 29 2020, 4:44am

Post #12 of 15 (1754 views)
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That makes a lot of sense--thanks! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Dec 4 2020, 2:37am

Post #13 of 15 (1703 views)
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There is much to commend this view in the Lórien chapters- [In reply to] Can't Post

Your conclusion may also be related to what Gimli said to Legolas, as they paddled down the Great River: “Indeed I have heard that for [Elves] memory is more like to the waking world than to a dream.”


(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Dec 4 2020, 2:46am)


CMackintosh
Rivendell

Dec 16 2020, 7:37am

Post #14 of 15 (1519 views)
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Orclands and Elflands [In reply to] Can't Post

We get a hint of this in the Hobbit:

Quote
“O yes!” he said in answer to more questions from the hobbit. “You lose
track of time inside goblin-tunnels. Today’s Thursday, and it was Monday night
or Tuesday morning that we were captured.

The Orkish branch of the Firstborn would also appear to have this ability, though somewhat warped. Though it doesn't feature in Moria - presumably because the Dwarf-wrought city/fortress was immune to Orkish magic; most probably the same for the Tower of Cirith Ungol.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Dec 16 2020, 3:29pm

Post #15 of 15 (1496 views)
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Time in the Goblin-tunnels [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
We get a hint of this in the Hobbit:

Quote
“O yes!” he said in answer to more questions from the hobbit. “You lose
track of time inside goblin-tunnels. Today’s Thursday, and it was Monday night
or Tuesday morning that we were captured.

The Orkish branch of the Firstborn would also appear to have this ability, though somewhat warped. Though it doesn't feature in Moria - presumably because the Dwarf-wrought city/fortress was immune to Orkish magic; most probably the same for the Tower of Cirith Ungol.


I don't see any evidence of magic taking place here. It just seems to me that being trapped in the darkness of the goblin-tunnels tends to make one lose track of time. Perfectly natural phenomenon.

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