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This is going to be trash
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2ndBreffest
Lorien


Oct 15, 9:49am

Post #1 of 47 (1351 views)
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This is going to be trash Can't Post

All signs point to it. From the get-go, nearly every article mentions GoT...then whaddaya know?...they bring on people who worked on GoT. Tom Shippey, the only one with any knowledge of Tolkien beyond the PJ movies is out. Uh oh. Then, instead of looking for someone who might know something about something, they say "what we really need now is...an Intimacy Coordinator! Then we can really spice this thing up!" Not looking good people.
Amazon doesn't care...they know this is going to make a ton of money no matter what they do as long as they plaster "Lord of the Rings" all over it. If you're mainly a fan of the PJ movies and/or GoT, this will be for you. If you're someone who is hoping for something Tolkien himself might have actually approved of, you had best not get your hopes up.


Chen G.
Rohan

Oct 15, 10:03am

Post #2 of 47 (1293 views)
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So certain are you... [In reply to] Can't Post

We have very little information about this series to rush into any conclusions, but for my money, Amazon gets a lot of credit from the outset for NOT pulling a Rogue One with Young Aragorn and instead choosing to go with Of the Rings of Power. Its very ambitious, very different (its not even another "Quest" type story) and its set so far from the stories of the films that its unlikely to fall into the usual franchise trappings.

An intimacy coordinator is needed nowadays on just about anything. If Jackson was making The Lord of the Rings nowadays he would need one, being that his films contain kissing. Its fall-out from the #MeToo movement.

To be extra blunt, I don't see how Tolkien's hypothetical approval should mean anything. I've seen his comments on the Zimmerman treatment and while some of them are on-point, many others come across as pedantic and, as by Tolkien's own admission, "ignorant" of the filmmaking process.

What an adaptation needs to do is respect the main narrative and themes of the author, not his personal sensibilities. Having Game of Thrones-esque violence or even a love scene won't diminish the tragedy of Celebrimbor or the themes that it embodies.


(This post was edited by Chen G. on Oct 15, 10:03am)


2ndBreffest
Lorien


Oct 15, 10:26am

Post #3 of 47 (1283 views)
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From what has been revealed thus far... [In reply to] Can't Post

yeah, my expectations are quite low. As far as the Intimacy Coordinator thing, yes I'm sure that is just something that is required these days even if you're shooting a commercial for cat food, however one of the casting calls specifically states they are "seeking background extras and featured extras “who are comfortable with partial or full nudity”. So yeah that's a bit more than "kissing". The question is, will this be tasteful nudity, or full on gratutious sex scenes like in GoT. I can't say with absolute certainty, but I will go out on a limb and say I highly doubt Tolkien would have been a fan of GoT.
And as I said, not everyone will care if this will be something Tolkien would approve of. I do, but a good many won't and it looks like Amazon may lean a bit more to that side based on what has come out as of now.


Silmaril
Rohan

Oct 15, 12:29pm

Post #4 of 47 (1253 views)
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GOT...LOTR [In reply to] Can't Post

The GOT books have much violence and sex scenes, so the series brought this on screen. So that's ok, but for me it was much too brutal, some scenes were really disgusting (fight viper against mountain...puke). If LOTR will be like this, I will not watch this.
I really love the LOTR trilogy, it had a lot of the magic of the books in my opinion. I want to see more like this! Not sex&violence like GOT, and not trash like THE HOBBIT.



Chen G.
Rohan

Oct 15, 4:37pm

Post #5 of 47 (1214 views)
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You would probably like to know [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
however one of the casting calls specifically states they are "seeking background extras and featured extras “who are comfortable with partial or full nudity”. So yeah that's a bit more than "kissing". The question is, will this be tasteful nudity, or full on gratutious sex scenes like in GoT.


That there is NO proof that the casting call in question is for this show. In fact, all the signs seem to point to it being for one of two cocurrent Netflix productions which are restarting in Auckland, namely, a remake of Cowboy Bebop.

The casting calls for The Lord of the Rings say they are for that show. The casting call in question does not.


Archestratie
Rivendell


Oct 15, 4:53pm

Post #6 of 47 (1207 views)
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Uh... [In reply to] Can't Post

Very little if anything has been revealed about the show so far. You're jumping to wild conclusions.

My Low-Magic Fantasy Novel on eBook/hardback: The Huntsman and the She-Wolf

The Huntsman and the She-Wolf on audio Book.


MoreMorgoth
Rivendell

Oct 15, 6:52pm

Post #7 of 47 (1187 views)
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wait and see [In reply to] Can't Post

I am going to do something very radical - I will wait until I see the finished product before pontificating on its quality.


2ndBreffest
Lorien


Oct 15, 11:01pm

Post #8 of 47 (1136 views)
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yes [In reply to] Can't Post

hopefully you are correct about that. I mean, even PJ with all of his excessive and out of place additions, at least had the sense to draw the line at hard-core sex scenes.


Intergalactic Lawman
Rohan


Oct 15, 11:07pm

Post #9 of 47 (1135 views)
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Hmmm... [In reply to] Can't Post

It's certainly shaping up that way...

LOTR's showed you how to do it (then PJ went of the rails, and all the acclaim went with it)The Hobbit films showed you what NOT to do.GOT was great but that is not Middle Earth
This show needs to be true to itself and not try and be something it isn't. Good characters, good villains, avoid unnecessary cgi and nudity, good story, violence that is appropriate and there you have it!


2ndBreffest
Lorien


Oct 17, 11:57am

Post #10 of 47 (979 views)
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true... [In reply to] Can't Post

not much has been revealed or rumored so far, however, nothing that has come out as of now inspires much hope. And based on the sort of thing that so often passes for "quality" entertainment these days only further adds to my doubt. Sure, we'll all have to wait and see, so my original post is not so much a "conclusion" but rather a "prediction" and warning for those of like mind to prepare themselves for a possible disaster. I fear the time for proper representations of Tolkien's literature may have now passed. At least by mainstream industries.


Chen G.
Rohan

Oct 17, 12:01pm

Post #11 of 47 (982 views)
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Disagree [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
nothing that has come out as of now inspires much hope.


The choice to tell Of the Rings of Power inspires A LOT of hope for me. While I would have had no problem with the Young Aragorn storyline, it was ultimately the easy and predictable choice: a Middle Earth Rogue One, if you will.

Of the Rings of Power is such a bold new direction: its set so far in the past compared to just about any prequel in any franchise, with nary any common ground with the existing films or the story as most people know it: the closest we to a familiar location might be Mithlond. There are no Hobbits. Its not even the same kind of narrative being that its not yet another quest: its more Machiavelian, a-la Kingdom of Heaven.

All of this to me speaks to the creativity and boldness of the showrunners, and that's a very good thing.


(This post was edited by Chen G. on Oct 17, 12:03pm)


2ndBreffest
Lorien


Oct 17, 12:09pm

Post #12 of 47 (971 views)
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ok [In reply to] Can't Post

I'll give you that one...I'll take the Rings of Power storyline over the "Young Aragorn Chronicles".


squire
Half-elven


Oct 17, 1:25pm

Post #13 of 47 (958 views)
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Creativity and boldness [In reply to] Can't Post

That's one way to interpret their choice. The other is that it gives them the maximum freedom to write anything they want and still call it "Tolkien".

I know it sounds cranky but every time I see Tolkien's work referred to as just another 'franchise' in the modern-day commercial universe, it rubs me the wrong way. Unlike Stan Lee, George Martin, George Lucas, etc., he wasn't writing a franchise. He didn't want it to be a franchise, and the one time he was tempted to make it one he immediately abandoned the attempt ('The New Shadow') because it was turning out to be a "mere thriller - not worth doing."

I have to say I am not very hopeful that this project will be anything but a mere thriller, although like everyone else I have to concede that this is just projection, so far.



squire online:
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Oct 17, 1:52pm

Post #14 of 47 (950 views)
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An Aside. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
...I'll take the Rings of Power storyline over the "Young Aragorn Chronicles".


So do you think that Aragorn: The Legendary Journeys would be more suitable as a movie than as a long-form series? Or maybe as a limited series?

#FidelityToTolkien
#DiversityWithFidelity

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Oct 17, 1:53pm)


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Oct 17, 1:58pm

Post #15 of 47 (943 views)
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A reasonable assumption [In reply to] Can't Post

It might be a good thriller. I might even have elements of profundity and beauty that echoes what makes Tolkien so great. But it won't be Tolkien, and it won't be something created by a seminal, generational genius.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


2ndBreffest
Lorien


Oct 17, 3:52pm

Post #16 of 47 (929 views)
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actually... [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd prefer a sitcom series..."Aragorn & Brego" . It would be a sort of Mr. Ed type of thing, and take place where the last movie left off. The viewer's would be able to hear Brego's thoughts like in "Look Who's Talking". Of course the key would be to cast the right voice actor to play Brego's internal dialogue.

Or maybe something more along the lines of "B.J. and the Bear". I don't know. I just feel there's a story there just waiting to be told.


(This post was edited by 2ndBreffest on Oct 17, 4:01pm)


Chen G.
Rohan

Oct 17, 5:17pm

Post #17 of 47 (889 views)
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Of the Rings of Power [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I know it sounds cranky but every time I see Tolkien's work referred to as just another 'franchise' in the modern-day commercial universe, it rubs me the wrong way. Unlike Stan Lee, George Martin, George Lucas, etc., he wasn't writing a franchise.


I would share that sentiment, had this franchise gone into overkill a-la MCU or Star Wars. But, as it is, it boasts a grand total of six feature films (seven, if one is being particularly anal by including Tolkien) and a TV show. As Ian McKellen says: "Its not a 'franchise', it is a series."


Quote
So do you think that Aragorn: The Legendary Journeys would be more suitable as a movie than as a long-form series? Or maybe as a limited series?


I would have been fine with such a series (or film) but few would contend that Of the Rings of Power is not more enticing.


Quote
The other is that it gives them the maximum freedom to write anything they want and still call it "Tolkien".


Semantics. To my mind, the success of this venture depends entirely on whether or not they nail the tragedy of Celebrimbor. That's really the core narrative of this storyline.

Basically, they need to get that right, and everything else can be whatever it is they wish it to be. They want to cast Nazanin Boniadi as Tar Telperien? Sure, why not. They want to have a scene of Robert Aramayo "getting it on" with Markella Kavenagh? Okay. They want to spice up the violence for the Battle of Gwathlo? You bet. JUST GET CELEBRIMBOR RIGHT.


(This post was edited by Chen G. on Oct 17, 5:23pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Oct 17, 7:25pm

Post #18 of 47 (861 views)
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Now that you mention it... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I'd prefer a sitcom series..."Aragorn & Brego" . It would be a sort of Mr. Ed type of thing, and take place where the last movie left off. The viewer's would be able to hear Brego's thoughts like in "Look Who's Talking". Of course the key would be to cast the right voice actor to play Brego's internal dialogue.

Or maybe something more along the lines of "B.J. and the Bear". I don't know. I just feel there's a story there just waiting to be told.


...I think the Shire would be more suitable for a sitcom; something along the lines of the exploits of Shirriff Andy in Buckbury R.F.D.

#FidelityToTolkien
#DiversityWithFidelity

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Oct 17, 7:27pm)


2ndBreffest
Lorien


Oct 17, 10:04pm

Post #19 of 47 (837 views)
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either way... [In reply to] Can't Post

they're going to be pulling 90% of this out of thin air anyway, if they went with something like this, at least it would be clearly "fan-fic" and not something masquerading as actual "Tolkien" material. I think I would honestly prefer a series of silly Shire shenanigans over what I'm sure will almost inevitably be a horrible mess anyway.


(This post was edited by 2ndBreffest on Oct 17, 10:07pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Oct 18, 12:24am

Post #20 of 47 (811 views)
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Huh. [In reply to] Can't Post

I know I edited that post to read "Bucklebury R.F.D.". The edit did not seem to take for some reason.

#FidelityToTolkien
#DiversityWithFidelity


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Oct 18, 1:54am

Post #21 of 47 (803 views)
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A Hobbits animated series? [In reply to] Can't Post

By sheer coincidence, I just came across this article at CBR:

Link: Lord of the Rings: We REALLY Need a Hobbits Animated Series

Quote
The Owl House's Molly Ostertag is chomping at the bit to make an animated Lord of the Rings series for Amazon. Here's why that's a great idea.




#FidelityToTolkien
#DiversityWithFidelity

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Oct 18, 1:56am)


squire
Half-elven


Oct 18, 2:25am

Post #22 of 47 (799 views)
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That is so weird [In reply to] Can't Post

If I understand the article, the only reason Ms. Ostertag wants to make an animated series about how Hobbit children live in the Shire is to promote the idea of same-sex relationships to a juvenile audience.
And as the article makes clear, this isn't about a script or outline or deal. It's about a random self-promoting tweet by Ostertag, "asking" Amazon to fund her dream of making such a show.
It's almost bizarre, in the midst of ongoing discussions of whether the Amazon series set in the Second Age is going to be just 'fan fiction', to see a proposal, inspired by that series, to base a nominally Tolkien show entirely on actual fan fiction.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


2ndBreffest
Lorien


Oct 18, 10:40am

Post #23 of 47 (740 views)
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on fanfic [In reply to] Can't Post

"It's almost bizarre, in the midst of ongoing discussions of whether the Amazon series set in the Second Age is going to be just 'fan fiction', to see a proposal, inspired by that series, to base a nominally Tolkien show entirely on actual fan fiction"

Here's what happened as I see it. The enormous success of the Peter Jackson movies introduced Tolkien to the mainstream world, and many people who would have most likely never even heard of a hobbit, found themselves suddenly swept up in all of the hype and excitement. But these were not new "Tolkien" fans, but rather fans of The Lord of the Rings re-imagined by Peter Jackson. The differences between the books and the movies were of no concern to those who have never read them obviously, so this idea of fidelity to Tolkien in general is not one that is shared by the vast majority of these movie fans clamoring for more. They will be more concerned with whether or not future "LotR" film projects fit in with their vision of the world as was presented to them by Peter Jackson, which is why you see a lot of, "this needs to be filmed in New Zealand", "this needs Howard Shore", "Ian Mckellan is the only Gandalf" etc. PJ's Hobbit is very different than the book on which it is based, but it is generally regarded by these same fans as an agreeable complement to his previous series, though I think most will admit they are perhaps, not quite as good. The differences in PJ's Hobbit and the book are dramatic...so much so, I can only consider much of it to be fanfic in and of itself. The movie fans generally enjoyed these alterations and probably wouldn't have had much issue with whatever else he saw fit to change or invent. Amazon has very little material from Tolkien to base this on, and I just don't see them worrying too much about appeasing the book fans which will be a very challenging endeavor, when satisfying the much larger movie fanbase will clearly be the easier and more financially lucrative route to take.

So basically, if this turns out to be nothing more than a big budget fan-fic project baring zero resemblance to anything Tolkien would have ever written, its all PJ's fault. Tongue


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Oct 18, 1:38pm

Post #24 of 47 (714 views)
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The article is very speculative. [In reply to] Can't Post

Mr. Sowa makes some assumptions about the direction that Ms. Ostertag would take her series if it came to be produced. I don't know that she would explicitly explore LGBTQ+ relationships within the context of such a show, though it doesn't seem unlikely given the themes explored in The Owl House (which I really should check out sometime soon). I do not know if Ms. Ostertag became a fan through the films or the books, but gay shipping of Middle-earth characters has been around for many years--decades even--with Sam/Frodo being a prime example.

An animated series for children, centered on Hobbit children is, frankly, not the worst idea I've ever heard and could be quite interesting. Whether Molly Ostertag is the right person to head up such a show is a completely different question, but I'd like to see what she would actually pitch.

#FidelityToTolkien
#DiversityWithFidelity


InTheChair
Lorien

Oct 18, 7:23pm

Post #25 of 47 (655 views)
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I would have been ok with the Young Aragorn chronicles [In reply to] Can't Post

As long as they kept within the framework presented in the Appendices and other writings.

It would also have been a much safer bet for Amazon. I kind of thought that's what they paid so much money for.

Going with the second age and the rings of power, which requires more invention is interesting. And daring. Maybe it will surprise. Although it may suggest a show that appeal more to GOT fans than Tolkien fans.

I have some doubts that Amazon is up to that task. Especially if this is their first fantasy epic. Adding on the trouble of Covid-19 is not gonna help them either..

Maybe they should have gone with the Young Aragorn Chronicles.


(This post was edited by InTheChair on Oct 18, 7:25pm)

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