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Annael
Immortal
Sep 23 2020, 11:45pm
Post #1 of 21
(9516 views)
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How are you feeling about the upcoming "Dune" movie?
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I'm beyond excited. The trailer looks like Denis Villeneuve "gets it" . . . something I could not say about David Lynch. The Syfy version had a better script, but apart from James McAvoy as young Leto, nothing about it has stuck in my memory.
I've seen Jodorovsky's storyboards for the version he never got to make, and while this might be sacrilege to some, I'm pretty sure I would have hated it.
Feels a bit like my long wait for a good LOTR movie: Bakshi was strange, but I wish he'd completed it, because the Rankin-Bass version was a travesty; the third time was the (not altogether perfect but we'll take it) charm.
The trailer, if you haven't seen it yet:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9xhJrPXop4
(This post was edited by Annael on Sep 23 2020, 11:46pm)
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Sep 28 2020, 5:58pm
Post #4 of 21
(9108 views)
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How many chapters does Dune devote to explaining warp drives? :)
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I've heard some people make that explanation of how Dune was the before/after inflection point in sci-fi, where previous authors obsessed over technology at the expense of story and character, and Dune showed that the "tech" could be spice and sandworms mixed with political conspiracies and internal and external human conflicts. We wouldn't have The Expanse without Dune, that's for sure.
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Annael
Immortal
Oct 1 2020, 6:45pm
Post #6 of 21
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even the cats' eyes turn blue!
I love pumpkin, I love pumpkin spices . . . just not in a latte. Tried one once, spat it out. Too sweet (I usually drink my coffee without sugar) and the combination of coffee plus pumpkin was just a big NO for me.
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Oct 1 2020, 9:03pm
Post #7 of 21
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And in other baked treats, yes.
But coffee...ecch...
If I want to drink fall spices, the best way is in warm cider! 
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ElanorTX
Tol Eressea
Oct 2 2020, 4:55am
Post #8 of 21
(8881 views)
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OT: and mail carriers do exist! //
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Oct 2 2020, 12:40pm
Post #9 of 21
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That moment with Puck was so sweet...
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Annael
Immortal
Oct 6 2020, 6:15pm
Post #11 of 21
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Probably smart, but . . .
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Omnigeek
Lorien
Oct 9 2020, 10:02pm
Post #12 of 21
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I felt Lynch captured the spirit of the book even when he made changes (e.g., weirding modules instead of the Weirding Way). The Sci-Fi channel's mini-series really left me cold even though it was more faithful to the text. The retrospective by Midnight's Edge ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d00vFdThPic ) covered a lot of ground and made a lot of good points about how the producers butchered the film to meet distributor demands on run-length.
I am somewhat flummoxed that Villeneuve felt it was important to make Liet-Kynes a woman.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Oct 10 2020, 1:00am
Post #13 of 21
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Dune (1977) LP by Dave Matthews
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On a different, but related topic, has anyone else ever listened to musician Dave Matthews' 1977 album Dune?
I'm not sure it was ever released in any format other than vinyl*. The A-side is a concept album in a soft jazz style based on Frank Herbert's novel. The B-side consists of various sci-fi related tracks.
* Correction: It does seem to have had a CD release, but both the LP and the CD are out of print, rare and expensive. It can be purchased on MP3 for $6.99 (US) at Amazon or streamed for free.
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Oct 10 2020, 1:01am)
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Annael
Immortal
Oct 11 2020, 5:07pm
Post #14 of 21
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I am somewhat flummoxed that Villeneuve felt it was important to make Liet-Kynes a woman.
Does gender matter for a scientist and visionary? Still the parent of Chani . . . of all the characters that could have been gender-swapped to bring a little more balance, that one makes the most sense to me.
I took friends who hadn't read the book to Lynch's movie and they laughed through the whole thing.
(This post was edited by Annael on Oct 11 2020, 5:08pm)
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Annael
Immortal
Oct 11 2020, 5:10pm
Post #15 of 21
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it sounds familiar. I didn't buy the LP though. A friend must have.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Oct 11 2020, 7:05pm
Post #16 of 21
(8278 views)
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Re: Dune (1977) LP by Dave Matthews
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it sounds familiar. I didn't buy the LP though. A friend must have.
Could well be. I found the album in a local record shop in Alfred, NY in 1979. Here's the tracklist:
A1 Part I: Arrakis (6:03)
Guitar, Soloist – Hiram Bullock
Soprano Saxophone, Soloist – Grover Washington, Jr.
Synthesizer, Soloist – Cliff Carter
Written-By – David Matthews
A2 Part II: Sandworms (5:03)
Bass [Melody], Soloist – Gary King
Guitar, Soloist – Eric Gale
Tenor Saxophone, Soloist – Grover Washington, Jr.
Written-By – David Matthews
A3 Part III: Song Of The Bene Gesserit (2:50)
Alto Saxophone [Melody], Soloist – David Sanborn
Guitar [Melody], Soloist – Hiram Bullock
Soprano Saxophone [Solo Fills] – Grover Washington, Jr.
Written-By – David Matthews
A4 Part IV: Muad'Dib (6:36)
Alto Saxophone [Melody], Soloist – David Sanborn
Guitar, Soloist – Hiram Bullock
Written-By – David Matthews
B1 Space Oddity (6:05)
Alto Saxophone [Melody], Soloist – David Sanborn
Guitar, Soloist – Hiram Bullock
Trumpet, Soloist – Randy Brecker
Vocals – Googie Coppola
Written-By – David Bowie
B2 Silent Running (3:15)
Alto Saxophone [Melody], Soloist – David Sanborn
Tenor Saxophone [Melody], Soloist – Grover Washington, Jr.
Written-By – Diane Lampert, Peter Schickele
B3 Princess Leia's Theme (From Star Wars) (2:55)
Flugelhorn, Soloist – Joe Shepley
Flute, Soloist – David Tofani
Guitar [Melody], Soloist – Hiram Bullock
Oboe, Soloist – Lew Del Gatto
Written-By – John Williams
B4 Main Theme From Star Wars (3:22)
Guitar, Soloist – Hiram Bullock
Synthesizer, Soloist – Cliff Carter
Written-By – John Williams
And here's a couple of sample tracks:
YouTube: "Sandworms"
YouTube: "Silent Running"
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Oct 11 2020, 7:13pm)
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Omnigeek
Lorien
Oct 12 2020, 5:06pm
Post #17 of 21
(8230 views)
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I am somewhat flummoxed that Villeneuve felt it was important to make Liet-Kynes a woman. Does gender matter for a scientist and visionary? Still the parent of Chani . . . of all the characters that could have been gender-swapped to bring a little more balance, that one makes the most sense to me. I took friends who hadn't read the book to Lynch's movie and they laughed through the whole thing.
The larger question in my mind is WHY make that change if it doesn't matter? The fact he did that meant to me that agenda or his desires meant more than telling the actual story and are a larger deviation IMO than the Weirding Way vs. weirding modules. Lynch told overall story and kept the characters and story in line despite changes in some details that he felt were needed for the intended audience. He didn't want "Kung Fu in space".
I'm not against the Villeneuve version just because of this detail but it has me wary rather than excited for it because he chose to make this kind of change. It's like Verhoeven changing Dizzy Flores in "Starship Troopers" from male to female. Overall, not a significant change to the story but it was a sign of what the director intended (which was absolute garbage in the case of "Starship Troopers").
Not sure why your friends who never read the book or their laughing are relevant to the discussion. I remember hearing people in line for the midnight premiere showing of FOTR talking about never having read the books and am glad they kept their mouths shut during the movie.
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Annael
Immortal
Oct 12 2020, 7:02pm
Post #18 of 21
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was due to Lynch's generally over-the-top production. The swimming elephant Guild navigator, the incessant voice-over exposition (first rule of good storytelling: show don't tell), the Sardaukar in what looked like 1950s atomic lab gear (and the frequent re-use of the same shots of them running), the "weirding modules," the pustulant Harkonnen, the "heart plugs," and the thing that angered me the most, Paul making it rain at the end "because he IS the Kwisatch Haderach!" SO wrong - Paul didn't have that kind of power, and rain on Arrakis was still generations away. I was fuming because I thought Lynch went so far away from the book he made it ridiculous.
In that light, gender-swapping a character to enhance diversity seems trivial to me . . . and as a woman, I appreciate having a character I can relate to who isn't a concubine to one of the male characters.
I thought "Starship Troopers" was horrible from start to finish, but I'm not a huge Heinlein fan to start with; even as a teenager decades ago his sexism was too much for me.
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Omnigeek
Lorien
Oct 13 2020, 2:58pm
Post #19 of 21
(8165 views)
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We'll have to agree to disagree
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The Navigators were stated to have grown in size and become immobile although I felt the portrayal was over the top. Vladimir Harkonnen was indeed pustulant in the text so there wasn't anything wrong with that. In fact, the portrayal of Vladimir Harkonnen was probably the most accurate in the movie. The voice-over was a result of the cuts the producer made to meet distributor demands on run-time (Lynch had envisioned the movie as a 3 hour epic).
However, I do want to address the misplaced charge of sexism by Heinlein. His wife was his first editor and a big influence. A lot of his books were male-centric because he wrote from what he knew but when he had female characters they were always smart and independent. Even going back to his early juvenile books, Heinlein frequently portrayed women as the superior half of the species. In "The Star Beast", Johnny just lets things happen to him while his girlfriend is the one who thinks things through and basically has to tell him how to negotiate (and Lummox turns out to be female).
In "The Rolling Stones", Hazel Stone is the smartest in the clan and maneuvers all four males (her son and 3 grandsons). In "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", Wyoming Knott is no pushover (although the main protagonists are male). Obviously in "Friday" the main protagonist is female, smart and in charge. In "I Will Fear No Evil" (which is a fairly weird story), he actually has the female mind instructing the male mind on a whole host of topics. In later novels, he had women manipulating one of his most popular characters, Lazarus Long.
I find the charge of sexism against Heinlein is most frequently levied by people who haven't bothered to actually read his works, relying on others with an agenda who also haven't bothered to read the works but taken bits and pieces to prop up their arguments.
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Annael
Immortal
Oct 13 2020, 9:07pm
Post #20 of 21
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I have read most of Heinlein's books. Yes, he often has "strong" female characters (as you say, very often manipulative of men, which is hardly a strong argument against a sexist viewpoint), but there is a difference between a strong female character and a COMPLETE female character. Strong female characters, a/k/a kickass warrior girls, act like men but have boobs and are always attractive and sexy. They are wish-fulfillment characters. Heinlein's women's happy endings almost always involve getting married and having a dozen children. I had high hopes for "Friday," but when he wrote that Friday doesn't mind being raped, even enjoys it, he lost me. That's a disgusting fantasy.
There are plenty of men who can write complete female characters, women who act and think like women would, women who have an interior life with goals and ideas of their own, who don't just exist in some relationship to a man. John Varley, Steven Brust, Greg Bear, David Brin, and Guy Gavriel Kay all come to mind. When I first read Varley's Titan series, I was convinced that he must be a woman writing under a nom de plume. He too writes a rape scene . . . emphasizing how much it hurts, how much the women hate it, and that it's not about sex but power over another person. That's a man who gets women. Heinlein . . . nope.
(This post was edited by Annael on Oct 13 2020, 9:09pm)
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Annael
Immortal
Oct 14 2020, 5:15pm
Post #21 of 21
(8100 views)
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I went back to my copy of "Dune" and cannot find a single reference to the Baron having pustules all over his face. Or Rabban.
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