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grammaboodawg
Elvenhome
Jul 28 2020, 11:53am
Post #26 of 39
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It's time for some more BS! July 31
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Here's a Book Spoiler that follows what happened after Bilbo escaped Gollum in Esgaroth...for a moment of Tolkien-zen. From The Shadow of the Past: The Fellowship of the Ring
...[Gollum] hated Bilbo and cursed his name. What is more, he knew where he came from... ...Bilbo very foolishly told Gollum himself; and after that it would not be difficult to discover his country, once Gollum came out. Oh yes, he came out. His longing for the Ring proved stronger than his fear of the Orcs, or even of the light. After a year or two he left the mountains. You see, though still bound by desire of it, the Ring was no longer devouring him; he began to revive a little. He felt old, terribly old, yet less timid, and he was mortally hungry.
... 'Light, light of Sun and Moon, he still feared and hated, and he always will, I think; but he was cunning. He found he could hide from daylight and moonshine, and make his way swiftly and softly by dead of night with his pale cold eyes, and catch small frightened or unwary things. He grew stronger and bolder with new food and new air. He found his way into Mirkwood... ...but before that he had wandered far, following Bilbo's trail... ..."What had it got in its pocketses... ...It wouldn't say, no precious. Little cheat. Not a fair question. It cheated first, it did. It broke the rules. We ought to have squeezed it, yes precious. And we will, precious...!"
......his padding feet had taken him at last to Esgaroth, and even to the streets of Dale, listening secretly and peering. Well, the news of the great events went far and wide in Wilderland, and many had heard Bilbo's name and knew where he came from. We had made no secret of our return journey to his home in the West. Gollum's sharp ears would soon learn what he wanted.... ...He set out and came back westward, as far as the Great River. But then he turned aside. He was not daunted by the distance... ...something else drew him away...
......The Wood-elves tracked him first... ...Through Mirkwood and back again... ...at the western edge of Mirkwood the trail turned away. It wandered off southwards... ...he had made his slow, sneaking way, step by step, mile by mile, south, down at last to the land of Mordor... ...as he lurked and pried on the borders he would be caught, and taken—for examination... ...he had already been there long, and was on his way back. On some errand of mischief... ...through him the Enemy has learned that the One has been found again.... ...And he has at last heard, I think, of hobbits and the Shire....
......we did not kill him: he is very old and very wretched. The Wood-elves have him in prison, but they treat him with such kindness as they can find in their wise hearts.'"
We have been there and back again.
“Courage is not having the strength to go on; it is going on when you don't have the strength." – Theodore Roosevelt
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grammaboodawg
Elvenhome
Jul 28 2020, 2:07pm
Post #27 of 39
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It's time for even more BS! August 1
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This is a Book Spoiler of Faramir's understanding of the alliance between Gondor and Rohan... for a moment of Tolkien-zen. From The Window on the West: The Two Towers ...[Faramir speaks of Rohan] "'Of our lore and manners they have learned what they would, and their lords speak our speech at need; yet for the most part they hold by the ways of their own fathers and to their own memories… …they speak among themselves their own North tongue. And we love them: tall men and fair women, valiant both alike, golden-haired, bright-eyed, and strong; they remind us of the youth of Men, as… …in the Elder Days. Indeed it is said by our lore-masters that they have from of old this affinity with us that they are come from those same Three Houses of Men as were the Númenoreans in their beginning; not from Hador the Goldenhaired, the Elf-friend… …yet from such of his sons and people as went not over Sea into the West, refusing the call.
...'For so we reckon Men in our lore, calling them the High… …Men of the West, which were Númenoreans, and the Middle Peoples, Men of the Twilight, such as are the Rohirrim and their kin that dwell still far in the North; and the Wild, the Men of Darkness…
...”… if the Rohirrim are grown in some ways more like to us, enhanced in arts and gentleness, we too have become more like to them, and can scarce claim any longer the title High. We are become Middle Men, of the Twilight, but with memory of other things. For as the Rohirrim do, we now love war and valour as things good in themselves, both a sport and an end… …though we still hold that a warrior should have more skills and knowledge than only the craft of weapons and slaying, we esteem a warrior… …above men of other crafts. Such is the need of our days. So even was my brother, Boromir: a man of prowess, and for that he was accounted the best man in Gondor… …very valiant indeed he was: no heir of Minas Tirith as for long years been so hardy in toil, so onward into battle, or blown a mightier note on the Great Horn.' Faramir sighed and fell silent for a while."
We have been there and back again.
“Courage is not having the strength to go on; it is going on when you don't have the strength." – Theodore Roosevelt
TIME Google Calendar
(This post was edited by grammaboodawg on Jul 28 2020, 2:08pm)
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grammaboodawg
Elvenhome
Jul 28 2020, 2:16pm
Post #28 of 39
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It's time for a bit more BS! August 2
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Here's a BS of Boromir's understanding of Fangorn and Rohan... for a moment of Tolkien-zen.
From Farewell to Lórien: The Fellowship of the Ring
... "'...Indeed we have heard of Fangorn in Minas Tirith,' said Boromir. 'But what I have heard seems to me... ...old wives' tales, such as we tell to our children. All that lies north of Rohan is now to us so far away that fancy can wander freely there. Of old Fangorn lay upon the borders of our realm; but it is now many lives of men since any of us visited it, to prove or disprove the legends that have come down from distant years.
... 'I have myself been... ...in Rohan, but I have never crossed it northwards. When I was sent out as a messenger, I passed through the Gap... ...and crossed the Isen and the Greyflood into Northerland. A long and wearisome journey. Four hundred leagues I reckoned... ...it took me many months; for I lost my horse at Tharbad, at the fording of the Greyflood. After that journey, and the road I have trodden with this Company, I do not much doubt that I shall find a way through Rohan, and Fangorn too, if need be.'
... 'Then I need say no more,' said Celeborn. 'But do not despise the lore that has come down from distant years; for oft is may chance that old wives keep in memory word of things that once were needful for the wise to know.'"
We have been there and back again.
“Courage is not having the strength to go on; it is going on when you don't have the strength." – Theodore Roosevelt
TIME Google Calendar
(This post was edited by grammaboodawg on Jul 28 2020, 2:20pm)
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CuriousG
Gondolin
Jul 30 2020, 7:15pm
Post #29 of 39
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I guess in Thorin & Co's defense, I would have left the path too if I was starving and there was the possibility of food nearby. This wasn't the usual warning where disobeying the rules is done out of curiosity or a little rebellion.
Then I was thinking of Gandalf's letter to Frodo in Bree and the first PS> "Do NOT use it again, for any reason whatever. Do not travel by night."
Frodo willingly put on the Ring in Bombadil's house, to no ill effect. He can't really be blamed for it putting itself on his finger in the inn while he sang, nor for the temptation at Weathertop. And putting it on much later to avoid a crazy Boromir near Amon Hen was the prudent thing to do.
As for traveling at night, if Frodo *hadn't* traveled by night in the Woody End, he wouldn't have met Gildor. So, the rules about wise wizardly advice seem different in LOTR.
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Aug 2 2020, 3:08am
Post #30 of 39
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July 25 & 26, 2041 (Third Age)
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Note: Karen Wynn Fonstad has July 25th as the day Gandalf leaves the Company at Mirkwood; but following each day's progress in the book, I determine Gandalf departs on the 26th. So my date is one day different than Ms Fonstad's. This will move this part of the Quest off by one day.
I think Fonstad's mistake is that she might have failed to remember that Gandalf left the company the morning after they reached the eaves of Mirkwood. That should indeed have been the morning of July 26. I don't think that it's of any real consequence however since the remaining dates for their journey through Mirkwood are little more than rough estimates. The next firm date is September 21, when the company escapes from captivity in the Elvenking's realm.
#FidelityToTolkien
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Aug 2 2020, 3:14am)
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grammaboodawg
Elvenhome
Aug 3 2020, 11:11am
Post #31 of 39
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Here's part 1 of a 3-part Book Spoiler that looks at how Ents embark on relationships… for a moment of Tolkien-zen.
From Treebeard: The Two Towers
... "After some time the hobbits heard [Treebeard] murmuring again. He seemed to be counting on his fingers. 'Fangorn, Finglas, Fladrif, aye, aye,' he sighed. 'The trouble is that there are so few of us left,' he said turning towards the hobbits. 'Only three remain of the first Ents that walked in the woods before the Darkness: only myself, Fangorn, and Finglas and Fladrif—to give them their Elvish names; you may call them Leaflock and Skinbark if you like that better… … What a pity there are so few of us!'
... 'Why are there so few, when you have lived in this country so long?' asked Pippin. 'Have a great many died?'
... 'Oh, no!' said Treebeard. 'None have died from inside, as you might say. Some have fallen in the evil chances of the long years, of course; and more have grown tree-ish. But there were never many of us and we have not increased. There have been no Entings--no children, you would say, not for a terrible long count of years. You see, we lost the Entwives.'
... 'How very sad!' said Pippin. 'How was it that they all died?'
... 'They did not die!' said Treebeard. 'I never said died. We lost them, I said… …and we cannot find them.' He signed. 'I thought most folk knew that. There were songs about the hunt of the Ents for the Entwives sung among Elves and Men from Mirkwood to Gondor. They cannot be quite forgotten.'
... 'Well, I am afraid the songs have not come west over the Mountains to the Shire,' said Merry. 'Won't you tell us some more, or sing us one of the songs?'
... 'Yes, I will indeed,' said Treebeard, seeming pleased with the request…"
We have been there and back again.
“Courage is not having the strength to go on; it is going on when you don't have the strength." – Theodore Roosevelt
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(This post was edited by dernwyn on Aug 5 2020, 11:30am)
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grammaboodawg
Elvenhome
Aug 3 2020, 11:14am
Post #32 of 39
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And trying to deduce some of these activities is a huge puzzle!
We have been there and back again.
“Courage is not having the strength to go on; it is going on when you don't have the strength." – Theodore Roosevelt
TIME Google Calendar
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grammaboodawg
Elvenhome
Aug 4 2020, 12:18pm
Post #33 of 39
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Here's part 2 of a 3-part Book Spoiler that looks at how Ents em"bark" on relationships… for a moment of Tolkien-zen.
From Treebeard: The Two Towers
... '…It is rather a strange and sad story,' [Treebeard] went on after a pause. When the world was young, and the woods were wide and wild, the Ents and the Entwives--and there were Entmaidens then: ah! the loveliness of Fimbrethil, of Wandlimb the lightfooted, in the days of our youth!--they walked together and they housed together. But our hearts did not go on growing in the same way: the Ents gave their love to things that they met in the world… …the Entwives gave their thought to other things, for the Ents loved the great trees, and the wild woods, and the slopes of the high hills; and they drank of the mountain-streams, and ate only such fruit as the trees let fall in their path; and they learned of the Elves and spoke with the Trees… …the Entwives gave their minds to the lesser trees, and to the meads in the sunshine beyond the feet of the forests; and they saw the sloe in the thicket, and the wild apple and the cherry blossoming in spring, and the green herbs in the waterlands in summer and the seeding grasses in the autumn fields. They did not desire to speak with these… …but they wished them to hear and obey what was said to them. The Entwives ordered them to grow according to their wishes, and bear leaf and fruit to their liking; for the Entwives desired order, and plenty, and peace (by which they meant that things should remain where they had set them)… …the Entwives made gardens to live in. But we Ents went on wandering, and we only came to the gardens now and again. Then when the Darkness came in the North, the Entwives crossed the Great River, and made new gardens… …and we saw them more seldom. After the Darkness was overthrown the land of the Entwives blossomed richly, and their fields were full of corn. Many men learned the crafts of the Entwives and honoured them greatly; but we were only a legend to them, a secret in the heart of the forest. yet here we still are, while all the gardens of the Entwives are wasted: Men call them the Brown Lands now."
We have been there and back again.
“Courage is not having the strength to go on; it is going on when you don't have the strength." – Theodore Roosevelt
TIME Google Calendar
(This post was edited by dernwyn on Aug 5 2020, 11:30am)
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CuriousG
Gondolin
Aug 4 2020, 1:01pm
Post #34 of 39
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One of the few times that "dominion" didn't lead to evil (I think)
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The Ents are notably free with the trees under their care, of the same spirit as Bombadil: a caretaker and a guardian, but not a controller. If he were the latter, he would have reformed or killed Old Man Willow.
Well, so much for "the patriarchy" controlling the world, because in this case, it's the Entwives who want to control things:
They did not desire to speak with these… …but they wished them to hear and obey what was said to them.
Tolkien makes it pretty clear that he thinks dominating others is a bad thing to do which leads to evil (even if it begins with good intent), and I'm trying to figure out if:
1. The Entwives didn't take it too far, so their separation from the Ent-husbands was just bad luck, or
2. Their thirst for dominion was punished by Arda-karma, and that's why they're "lost."
Opinions?
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grammaboodawg
Elvenhome
Aug 5 2020, 11:06am
Post #35 of 39
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Here's part 3 of a 3-part Book Spoiler that looks at how Ents em"bark" on relationships... for a moment of Tolkien-zen.
From Treebeard: The Two Towers
..."'I remember it was long ago—in the time of the war between Sauron and the Men of the Sea—desire came over me to see Fimbrethil again. Very fair she was still in my eyes, when I had last seen her, though little like the Entmaiden of old. For the Entwives were bent and browned by their labour; their hair parched by the sun to the hue of ripe corn and their cheeks like red apples. Yet their eyes were still the eyes of our own people. We crossed over Anduin and came to their land; but we found a desert: it was all burned and uprooted, for war had passed over it. But the Entwives were not there. Long we called, and long we searched... ...we asked all folk that we met which way the Entwives had gone. Some said they had never seen them; and some said that they had seen them walking away west, and some said east, and others south. But nowhere that we went could we find them. Our sorrow was very great.... ...For many many years we used to go out every now and again and look for the Entwives, walking far and wide and calling them by their beautiful names. But as time passes we went more seldom and wandered less far... ...now the Entwives are only a memory for us, and our beards are long and grey. The Elves make many songs concerning the Search of the Ents, and some of the songs passed into the tongues of Men. But we made no song about it, being content to chant their beautiful names when we thought of the Entwives. We believe that we may meet again in a time to come... ...perhaps we shall find somewhere a land where we can live together and both be content. But it is foreboded that that will only be when we have both lost all that we now have... ...that time is drawing near at last. For if Sauron of old destroyed the gardens, the Enemy today seems likely to wither all the woods.”
We have been there and back again.
“Courage is not having the strength to go on; it is going on when you don't have the strength." – Theodore Roosevelt
TIME Google Calendar
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Aug 5 2020, 3:13pm
Post #36 of 39
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I love puzzles! :D And trying to deduce some of these activities is a huge puzzle!
Well, Fonstad might have just messed up on the travel time between Beorn's house and MIrkwood, though Tolkien was pretty specific about it. More likely she just placed Gandalf's departure on the same day that they reached the Forest.
#FidelityToTolkien
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grammaboodawg
Elvenhome
Aug 6 2020, 12:29pm
Post #37 of 39
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Here's a Book Spoiler that follows what happened after Bilbo escaped Gollum...for a moment of Tolkien-zen.
From The Shadow of the Past: The Fellowship of the Ring
...[Gollum] hated Bilbo and cursed his name. What is more, he knew where he came from... ...Bilbo very foolishly told Gollum himself; and after that it would not be difficult to discover his country, once Gollum came out. Oh yes, he came out. His longing for the Ring proved stronger than his fear of the Orcs, or even of the light. After a year or two he left the mountains. You see, though still bound by desire of it, the Ring was no longer devouring him; he began to revive a little. He felt old, terribly old, yet less timid, and he was mortally hungry.
... 'Light, light of Sun and Moon, he still feared and hated, and he always will, I think; but he was cunning. He found he could hide from daylight and moonshine, and make his way swiftly and softly by dead of night with his pale cold eyes, and catch small frightened or unwary things. He grew stronger and bolder with new food and new air. He found his way into Mirkwood... ...but before that he had wandered far, following Bilbo's trail... ..."What had it got in its pocketses... ...It wouldn't say, no precious. Little cheat. Not a fair question. It cheated first, it did. It broke the rules. We ought to have squeezed it, yes precious. And we will, precious...!"
......his padding feet had taken him at last to Esgaroth, and even to the streets of Dale, listening secretly and peering. Well, the news of the great events went far and wide in Wilderland, and many had heard Bilbo's name and knew where he came from. We had made no secret of our return journey to his home in the West. Gollum's sharp ears would soon learn what he wanted.... ...He set out and came back westward, as far as the Great River. But then he turned aside. He was not daunted by the distance... ...something else drew him away...
......The Wood-elves tracked him first... ...Through Mirkwood and back again... ...at the western edge of Mirkwood the trail turned away. It wandered off southwards... ...he had made his slow, sneaking way, step by step, mile by mile, south, down at last to the land of Mordor... ...as he lurked and pried on the borders he would be caught, and taken—for examination... ...he had already been there long, and was on his way back. On some errand of mischief... ...through him the Enemy has learned that the One has been found again.... ...And he has at last heard, I think, of hobbits and the Shire....
......we did not kill him: he is very old and very wretched. The Wood-elves have him in prison, but they treat him with such kindness as they can find in their wise hearts.'"
We have been there and back again.
“Courage is not having the strength to go on; it is going on when you don't have the strength." – Theodore Roosevelt
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grammaboodawg
Elvenhome
Aug 6 2020, 1:01pm
Post #38 of 39
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I agree that Tolkien didn't agree with domination over others. It makes me think of his dislike for machines. Once technology moves in, it dominates how things are done and changes peoples' lives.
I think the outcome of the Entwives was bad luck. They became so focused on nurturing and expanding their gardens, the forgot how to nurture and expand their species/entings. I think they looked up one day and saw they travelled too far to care about returning... probably finding enough satisfaction in their gardens. When the Ents looked up and noticed they were gone, they probably thought they would return one day and became as complacent as the Entwives in re-establishing their world.
Weren't the Brown Lands once part of their gardens? Maybe when that was destroyed, they fled away in the opposite direction of Fangorn and were too devastated to travel that way again. What would the world's forests be like today if they had restored their way of life?
We have been there and back again.
“Courage is not having the strength to go on; it is going on when you don't have the strength." – Theodore Roosevelt
TIME Google Calendar
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CuriousG
Gondolin
Aug 6 2020, 3:37pm
Post #39 of 39
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Ents do have a tendency to fall out of touch, don't they?
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I think the outcome of the Entwives was bad luck. They became so focused on nurturing and expanding their gardens, the forgot how to nurture and expand their species/entings. I think they looked up one day and saw they travelled too far to care about returning... probably finding enough satisfaction in their gardens. When the Ents looked up and noticed they were gone, they probably thought they would return one day and became as complacent as the Entwives in re-establishing their world.
I like your view that they became so involved that they forgot about the basics, like having families. And it happens on both sides: the Ents in Fangorn are falling asleep and growing tree-ish all the time. Maybe the Ent-wives fled the destruction of the Brown Lands, planted new gardens, and became "garden-ish," falling asleep like their counterparts.
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