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Victariongreyjoy
Lorien
Jul 29 2020, 1:09pm
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The nazgul in the Battle of Dagorlad
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They were present there right? If they were, what kind of state do you think they were in? Physical form like they were in the third age, or in a spiritual form?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 29 2020, 3:01pm
Post #2 of 14
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The Nazgūl, since their first appearance as Wraiths, have always walked a line between the physical world and the spiritual realm. Even when they are uncloaked and invisible to normal eyes, I would say that the Nazgūl maintain a physical presence just as do the later Ringbearers (Bilbo, Frodo, Sméagol and Sam). At least so I believe.
#FidelityToTolkien
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jul 29 2020, 3:02pm)
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Victariongreyjoy
Lorien
Aug 4 2020, 7:53pm
Post #3 of 14
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The Nazgūl, since their first appearance as Wraiths, have always walked a line between the physical world and the spiritual realm. Even when they are uncloaked and invisible to normal eyes, I would say that the Nazgūl maintain a physical presence just as do the later Ringbearers (Bilbo, Frodo, Sméagol and Sam). At least so I believe. But did they look physical, like in the third age black hooded figure? Or was it similar to the barrow down wights?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 4 2020, 9:14pm
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I'm sure that the Ringwraiths at the Battle of Dagorlad would have been fully and physically clad so as to command Sauron's forces and bring fear to his enemies.
#FidelityToTolkien
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Aug 4 2020, 9:44pm
Post #5 of 14
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Do barrow-wights not look physical?
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Frodo sees a tall dark figure just before he is captured outside the barrow, and inside he cuts off his captor's hand, right?
Treachery, treachery I fear; treachery of that miserable creature.
But so it must be. Let us remember that a traitor may betray himself and do good that he does not intend.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Aug 5 2020, 3:00am
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Are the barrow-wights more dangerous than the wraiths?
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Gandalf told Frodo that the most dangerous moment on the hobbits' journey to Rivendell was not on Weathertop but in the Barrow-downs.
Treachery, treachery I fear; treachery of that miserable creature.
But so it must be. Let us remember that a traitor may betray himself and do good that he does not intend.
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Roverandom
Bree
Aug 5 2020, 12:48pm
Post #7 of 14
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"I said 'grave danger?'. You said, 'Is there any other kind?'"
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I always read Gandalf's remark as referring to the difference between a danger to Frodo's state of being, as opposed to physical danger. Weathertop and its cursed blade, while certainly a trial of Frodo's will, seems like more of the latter; and Frodo rises to the physical challenge despite foolishly putting on the Ring.
The scene at the barrow, however, constitutes more a crisis of faith. Frodo's moment of danger involves his apparent willingness to abandon his friends and the quest, to put on the ring and escape. He fantasizes that even Gandalf himself would have agreed that there was nothing else he could do. I think that's why the wizard considered it the most dangerous moment.
For just as there has always been a Richard Webster, so too has there been a Black Scout of the North to greet him at the door on the threshold of the evening and to guard him through his darkest dreams.
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InTheChair
Rohan
Aug 7 2020, 7:44pm
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Stricktly technical I think Gandlaf said only perhaps the most dangerous moment
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Using it anyway as an example of Frodos inner courage and strength. The was a physical danger there also of course, especially to Sam and the other two hobbits. Still for all we know Gandalf may have considered it the perhaps most dangerous moment mostly because the hobbits were alone. No Aragorn present and Bombadil a no show, unless Frodo could hit the right words (and notes?) of the song.
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Aug 16 2020, 8:17am
Post #9 of 14
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Is that in the second age they where more deadly and powerful than at the end of the 3rd. According to Gandalf anyway. It's an interesting question about what form they would have taken in the Battle of Dagorlad.
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InTheChair
Rohan
Aug 16 2020, 9:58am
Post #10 of 14
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If they were already permanently wraiths...
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Then perhaps the apperance of the souped up Witch-king at the gates of Minas Tirith will give us some idea.
Although I like to think that at least some of them, such as the Witch-King, at the end of the second age still maintained some control of himself and his ring, and could transition if desired.
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Aug 22 2020, 7:41am
Post #11 of 14
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According to the tale of years, the Nazgul first appeared in 2251 of the second age and the battle of dagorlad was over two thousand years later. That's a long time to live, even for a ring-enhanced Numenorean. So it's probably fair to assume that they where pretty much wraithed up by then. Wether they had any self-control or physical appearance is another matter, I suppose. It probably wasn't very much I guess, them been wraith-like. Maybe a hint of a skeleton or a more physical shadow in the light. One other thing about the Nazgul, thinking about it, is that I did mention Numenoreans and the only Nazgul we have evidence on who they where, where Numenoreans, but I wonder if they all where. I would have thought it logical that Sauron would have wanted to seduce Men that he would have had some men of Middle-Earth as candidates for the Nazgul. Both from the Edain stock and other.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 22 2020, 2:17pm
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Not all the Ringwraiths were Numenoreans
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One other thing about the Nazgul, thinking about it, is that I did mention Numenoreans and the only Nazgul we have evidence on who they where, where Numenoreans, but I wonder if they all where. I would have thought it logical that Sauron would have wanted to seduce Men that he would have had some men of Middle-Earth as candidates for the Nazgul. Both from the Edain stock and other.
We only know of three Nazgūl who had originally been Nśmenórean lords--and we don't know the original identities of any of them. We do know from Tolkien that the second most powerful of the Nazgūl was originally known as Khamūl, a king of the Easterlings in the Second Age. It's reasonable to assume that the remaining five Wraiths had been Men of the East, South and (perhaps) North.
#FidelityToTolkien
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InTheChair
Rohan
Aug 25 2020, 9:36pm
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It's easier to imagine them so because it is easier to imagine what we know, but I'm not certain.
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According to the tale of years, the Nazgul first appeared in 2251 of the second age and the battle of dagorlad was over two thousand years later. That's a long time to live, even for a ring-enhanced Numenorean. So it's probably fair to assume that they where pretty much wraithed up by then.
Maybe. Although we know the Rings of power have strange effects on people. Gollum was more 500 years old, having possessed the One ring for long, and was yet not wraith, and who knows how much longer he could have lived on so if Bilbo had not shown up. The Nine rings, may have similar powers. I don't know if the Nine beeing less powerful than the One would mean that their wearers wraith slower or faster, but it is not beyond possibilities that the stronger of the Nazgul could have kept themselves for a thousand years, though most likely they would have been, if not wraithed, then Gollumed, whatever that may imply for a man. It may also depend on how often they wore their rings I guess.
There are many things we can't know about the Nazgul at the time of the Last Alliance. Were they wraiths? Did they have flying mounts? Were they still leading the people they originally stemmed from? Were they all in the same state of beeing? And so on. If info on the Last Alliance of Men and Elves is limited, the info on their opponents at the time is even more limited. I think all we know is that all peoples except the Elves were represented, but we have no names on who led them, except the Nazgul and Sauron himself. Not that I can remember.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 26 2020, 4:06am
Post #14 of 14
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According to the tale of years, the Nazgul first appeared in 2251 of the second age and the battle of dagorlad was over two thousand years later. That's a long time to live, even for a ring-enhanced Numenorean. So it's probably fair to assume that they where pretty much wraithed up by then.
Maybe. Although we know the Rings of power have strange effects on people. Gollum was more 500 years old, having possessed the One ring for long, and was yet not wraith, and who knows how much longer he could have lived on so if Bilbo had not shown up. The Nine rings, may have similar powers. I don't know if the Nine beeing less powerful than the One would mean that their wearers wraith slower or faster, but it is not beyond possibilities that the stronger of the Nazgul could have kept themselves for a thousand years, though most likely they would have been, if not wraithed, then Gollumed, whatever that may imply for a man. It may also depend on how often they wore their rings I guess.
There are many things we can't know about the Nazgul at the time of the Last Alliance. Were they wraiths? Did they have flying mounts? Were they still leading the people they originally stemmed from? Were they all in the same state of [being]? And so on. If info on the Last Alliance of Men and Elves is limited, the info on their opponents at the time is even more limited. I think all we know is that all peoples except the Elves were represented, but we have no names on who led them, except the Nazgul and Sauron himself. Not that I can remember.
According to Appendix B of The Lord of the RIngs, the Nazgūl first appear as Wraiths in the year 2251 of the Second Age. They had likely been gifted with their Rings over 400 years before that (in some cases, maybe closer to 500 years). The Nazgūl were most definitely Wraiths well before the War of the Last Alliance. I very much doubt, though, that they rode flying beasts before the War of he Ring. I would guess that the territories that they controlled as Nazgūl were, for the most part, the lands that they ruled or otherwise came from in life.
#FidelityToTolkien
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Aug 26 2020, 4:08am)
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