|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
ProudFeet
Bree
Jun 10 2020, 10:54am
Post #1 of 11
(2441 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Age may have changed me...
|
Can't Post
|
|
I was considering Gandalf's and Galadriel's introduction at Rivendell before the White Council scene takes place in An Unexpected Journey. Whilst I didn't have a problem with these lines when I first saw the film, after delving into the lore much more over the subsequent years, I now find their lines problematic.
Galadriel's opening line is 'It has been a long time', referring to the last time she saw Gandalf. But in the lore, the White Council met 90 years previous at the second meeting. And, as we are told by Thranduil in Desolation of Smaug 'A hundred years is a mere blink in the life of an elf'.
Gandalf then replies with 'Age may have changed me but not so the Lady of Lórien'. This may have been mentioned on a thread before but as a Maia, Gandalf can change his form seemingly whenever he desires; only taking the form of an old man to effectively blend in with the inhabitants of the world. Indeed as all the Istari did. The Silmarillion does say that the Istari 'changed little with the years, and aged but slowly...' I have to assume that Gandalf would not have altered in appearance a considerable amount since the last time he saw Galadriel.
As a movie, it functions fine and I guess the 'It has been a long time' serves as a meta reference that it has been a long time since the audience has seen Galadriel since Return of the King. And also the 'Age may have changed me but not so the Lady of Lórien' serving as a reference to Cate Blanchett barely ageing in real life.
What do you guys think of the line or perhaps how it could have been reworded to make sense in the greater lore?
(This post was edited by ProudFeet on Jun 10 2020, 10:56am)
|
|
|
skyofcoffeebeans
Rohan
Jun 10 2020, 2:40pm
Post #2 of 11
(2387 views)
Shortcut
|
It's clear that movie canon and book canon are consistently inconsistent, and the movies go out of their way to be entertaining movies, not to adhere to lore.
I could also argue that the line is consistent with what the Silmarillion says, and that Gandalf is being humble by drawing attention to how subtlety he might have aged since last they met.
I wouldn't also necessarily assume they last met 90 years ago, since the White Council plot is greatly altered from the text, and that first White Council scene exists to set up a plot that in the books had begun a thousand years prior.
|
|
|
Solicitr
Gondor
Jun 10 2020, 2:40pm
Post #3 of 11
(2386 views)
Shortcut
|
The Istari were not, in that form, "normal" Ainur; they did not have the ability to put on and take off visible forms as raiment, as did their compatriots in Valinor (and Sauron, before his fall). Their peculiar mission required that they be embodied in reality, not just in seeming. They were literally incarnate in actual hroar, their divine spirits bound to them after the manner of fear. It was for this reason that Gandalf actually died on Zirakzigil when his physical body was damaged beyond survival.
Hroar of their nature will age, since they are made of the matter of Arda, although the rate of aging is dependent on the strength of the indwelling spirit, hence the 'changelessness' of Elves to mortal eyes- yet Elves also age, albeit slowly (ergo Cirdan). So also with the Wizards, and at a rate actually perceptible to mortals. Frodo noted that at Gandalf's return to the shire after 17 years, he looked "older and more careworn." Over a longer timespan, it's worth noting that when Curunir/Saruman first arrived his hair and beard were black, and had gone grey over the span of some two millennia.
(This post was edited by Solicitr on Jun 10 2020, 2:42pm)
|
|
|
Noria
Gondor
Jun 10 2020, 3:03pm
Post #4 of 11
(2381 views)
Shortcut
|
|
The movies take place in the movie-verse
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Which is not always exactly the same as the original, including chronology and geography. I’m OK with that for the most part, though I know it drives some people crazy.
As for Gandalf’s words of greeting, looking back, I suppose I thought that he was just being both gallant and reverent, as well as setting the tone for the close relationship in the films between Galadriel and Gandalf.
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 10 2020, 3:21pm
Post #5 of 11
(2376 views)
Shortcut
|
We don't know much about the White Council in the films. With Sauron lying low until fairly recently, the Council might not have met at all in the year 2851. In fact, the Council might have formed mainly to deal with the threat of the Witch-king and the other Nazgűl. I've estimated that this (circa T.A. 2463) might be about the time that the Ring-wraiths were defeated by the Dúnedain (possibly with the aid of the Istari and the Elves of Rivendell and Mithlond) and entombed at the High Fells in Rhudaur. We really don't know when, in this continuity, Gandalf and Galadriel last met.
Gandalf does not seem to have as much control over his form as you assume. He was sent to Middle-earth in the appearance of an elderly Man and he seems to keep that single, physical form during his entire time as an Istari.
#FidelityToTolkien
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 10 2020, 3:30pm)
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 10 2020, 3:29pm
Post #6 of 11
(2374 views)
Shortcut
|
Which is not always exactly the same as the original, including chronology and geography. I’m OK with that for the most part, though I know it drives some people crazy.
I'm not sure the geography of Middle-earth is altered as much in the films as you imply. The scale seems similar (if not identical) especially when we hear Gandalf describe the size of Mirkwood; and the only actual addition I can think of is the High Fells of Rhudaur which could arguably be written off as another name for the Coldfells north of Rivendell. But even if the distances were halved, we are still looking at a few weeks of travel versus many weeks of travel, or a few days in place of a couple of weeks.
#FidelityToTolkien
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 10 2020, 3:31pm)
|
|
|
Solicitr
Gondor
Jun 10 2020, 3:35pm
Post #7 of 11
(2366 views)
Shortcut
|
the movies incorporate closeups of maps copied directly from the originals (aside from adding a pointless triaresis to every A for some unknown but doubtless silly reason)
|
|
|
Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jun 10 2020, 8:20pm
Post #8 of 11
(2346 views)
Shortcut
|
I'm not sure the geography of Middle-earth is altered as much in the films as you imply. The scale seems similar (if not identical) especially when we hear Gandalf describe the size of Mirkwood; and the only actual addition I can think of is the High Fells of Rhudaur which could arguably be written off as another name for the Coldfells north of Rivendell.
...isn't there a mountain range between Rhosgobel and the Trollshaws? And yet movie-Radaghast caught up with Gandalf et al by bunny-sled. (I have no problem with the bunny-sled; only its capabilities in an alpine range.)
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Fantasy novel - The Arcanist's Tattoo
My LOTR fan-fiction
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 11 2020, 12:43am
Post #9 of 11
(2333 views)
Shortcut
|
...isn't there a mountain range between Rhosgobel and the Trollshaws? And yet movie-Radaghast caught up with Gandalf et al by bunny-sled. (I have no problem with the bunny-sled; only its capabilities in an alpine range.)
I also have a hard time imagining Radagast's bunny sled negotiating any of the passes over the Misty Mountains or his going the long way through the Gap of Rohan (and he still had to cross the River Anduin).
#FidelityToTolkien
|
|
|
Chen G.
Gondor
Jun 11 2020, 10:31am
Post #10 of 11
(2308 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Isn't there another, lower pass through the Mountains?
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
That the company simply didn't take for fear of Orcs, but which may have proven perfectly accesible to a hurried Radagast?
Quite some time may have passed between the sequence with Radagast and his encounter with the company, which would help facilitate his travels: the day the company arrives at Trollshaws in the movie ought to be 21 June, because - as far as we know - Elrond reads the moon-runes (under "the same moon" as a "Midsummer's Eve") the very next night.
This would mean the company is already on the road for quite a while by that point.
(This post was edited by Chen G. on Jun 11 2020, 10:36am)
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 11 2020, 1:10pm
Post #11 of 11
(2291 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Passes Through the Misty Mountains
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Note that I did mention passes (plural). There are at least three passages through the Misty Mountains that I am aware of: the High Pass near Rivendell; the Redhorn Pass near Moria; and an unnamed pass in between the two, the eastern end of which comes out near the River Gladden. However, I don't know that any of those passes could be easily negotiated by Radagast in his bunny sled.
...the day the company arrives at Trollshaws in the movie ought to be 21 June, because - as far as we know - Elrond reads the moon-runes (under "the same moon" as a "Midsummer's Eve") the very next night.
The date of Midsummer's Eve is not given in The Hobbit. However, in the Shire Reckoning, Midsummer's Eve does not fall in June at all, but between the months of June and July on the date of 1 Lithe, followed by Midyear's Day, Overlithe (only in leap years) and 2 Lithe. This would place the Company of Thorin in the Trollshaws on the date of June 30.
#FidelityToTolkien
|
|
|
|
|
