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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Noissucsid Seires VT Htrae-elddim:
Petition to keep LOTR on Prime true to Tolkien and not TV-MA
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Hasuwandil
Llednevir


Feb 4, 1:37pm

Post #1 of 30 (940 views)
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Petition to keep LOTR on Prime true to Tolkien and not TV-MA Can't Post

Someone has started a petition on change.org to keep Amazon's series true to Tolkien's writings, and to avoid turning it into another TV-MA fantasy series like A Game of Thrones or The Witcher. The petition currently has 741 signatures. I don't know what effect, if any, this petition is likely to have on Amazon Studios, but I thought people might like to know.

By the way, it's February isn't it? Do we have any members around Auckland (or Queenstown)?

Hêlâ Auriwandil, angilô berhtost,
oƀar Middangard mannum gisandid!


ange1e4e5
Rodnog

Feb 4, 3:34pm

Post #2 of 30 (892 views)
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When will it be set? I can imagine some things being TV-MA, like using Celebrimbor as a flag. [In reply to] Can't Post

 

I always follow my job through.


uncle Iorlas
Neirol


Feb 4, 6:20pm

Post #3 of 30 (866 views)
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Apologies for my ignorance-- [In reply to] Can't Post

What's TV-MA? Does the MA stand for mass audience? My first guess. If so, that seems awfully subjective to define. And in any event I don't think any amount of petitioning will persuade Amazon not to seek a massive audience. They have quite a bill to pay.


ange1e4e5
Rodnog

Feb 4, 6:29pm

Post #4 of 30 (863 views)
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TV-MA is supposed to be Mature audience; it's the equivalent of an R (Restricted)-rating for movies. [In reply to] Can't Post

 

I always follow my job through.


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Ronilav

Feb 5, 12:41am

Post #5 of 30 (797 views)
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One comment to that petition made me laugh out loud [In reply to] Can't Post

There are comments listed under "Reasons for Signing". The one by "Tony Magio' made my laugh out loud (unfortunately, I can't quote it here without violating the TOS).

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Solicitr
NahoR


Feb 5, 2:26am

Post #6 of 30 (775 views)
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Subject [In reply to] Can't Post

It's always amused me that the terms "adult" and "mature" are used (even by critics who ought to know better) to mean heavy on sexuality, that characteristic obsession of adolescents.


Otaku-sempai
Latrommi


Feb 5, 3:16am

Post #7 of 30 (770 views)
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Actually, I think I'm okay with this. [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought the petition would be more reactionary than it is. It comes down to what you consider to be gratuitous. The Second Age is a dark and violent period in the history of Middle-earth and the petition does acknowledge this. The question is: What level of violence is appropriate to the story being told and when would it be gratuitous? I do hope that the show will be respectful and faithful to the legendarium--certainly in spirit.

#FidelityToTolkien


Mari D.
Llednevir


Feb 5, 12:41pm

Post #8 of 30 (718 views)
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Doesn't make so much sense, I guess ... [In reply to] Can't Post

What I'd really think could be called mature content is if there's sophisticated thought Tongue

Also, what I don't quite get: If some content is unbeneficial for children and teenagers, why all of a sudden when I am an adult would it be beneficial for me?

I often find such content unbeneficial, in fact - shocking me without need, getting me used to stuff I shouldn't find normal, being depressing rather than inspiring.

But maybe the ratings are that way not to say "it's just fine for adults",
but to make sure young people get a solid understanding of how things SHOULD be first (by gaining some life experience), before you confront them too heavily with, in the case of violence, the ugly or perverted things?


(This post was edited by Mari D. on Feb 5, 12:46pm)


MerlinEngine
Resu Deretsiger

Feb 5, 2:10pm

Post #9 of 30 (701 views)
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The petition – commendable, but folly [In reply to] Can't Post

Not even if every single person of the 1000 who are signing the petition (current goal) paid a million dollars to the production of the series, thus effectively covering the billion-dollar budget, would it change Amazon's mind in the slightest.


Otaku-sempai
Latrommi


Feb 5, 2:39pm

Post #10 of 30 (695 views)
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The simple fact is... [In reply to] Can't Post

...Amazon's show could meet every requirement of the petition and still include mature content just by the nature of the story being told.

#FidelityToTolkien


Hasuwandil
Llednevir


Feb 6, 8:59am

Post #11 of 30 (615 views)
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Setting [In reply to] Can't Post

Presumably it will be set in the Second Age, but I'm not sure what difference that makes. The Hobbit (1977) and The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies (Extended Edition) were both set in the same time period. There are different ways of depicting events, including not depicting them at all. I don't see that it's impossible to depict events of the War of the Elves and Sauron or the downfall of Númenor without getting a TV-MA rating.

Hêlâ Auriwandil, angilô berhtost,
oƀar Middangard mannum gisandid!


Hasuwandil
Llednevir


Feb 6, 9:21am

Post #12 of 30 (615 views)
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Mature audience [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
What's TV-MA? Does the MA stand for mass audience? My first guess. If so, that seems awfully subjective to define. And in any event I don't think any amount of petitioning will persuade Amazon not to seek a massive audience. They have quite a bill to pay.


Sorry for not making that clear. TV-MA is the television equivalent of an R rating in the US, which means restricted for viewers under 17 years of age. HIstorically, an R rating has limited the financial success of films because certain age groups were not permitted to view them. The financial success of A Game of Thrones has changed the conventional wisdom, at least for television shows, where enforcement of ratings is left to parental discretion.

Perhaps there is a discussion to be had as to whether the success of A Game of Thrones owed more to its mature content, or to its mature content.

Hêlâ Auriwandil, angilô berhtost,
oƀar Middangard mannum gisandid!


2ndBreffest
Neirol


Feb 7, 8:38pm

Post #13 of 30 (444 views)
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yes... [In reply to] Can't Post

however, gratuitous sex scenes like those that dominate much of GoT do not belong in any respectable adaptation of Tolkien's stories. Scenes of violence would be expected and could possibly warrant a TV-MA rating, but even this can be done in a more artful way to avoid the more severe rating.


(This post was edited by 2ndBreffest on Feb 7, 8:41pm)


Otaku-sempai
Latrommi


Feb 8, 1:24am

Post #14 of 30 (415 views)
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Be that as it may... [In reply to] Can't Post

...as the series nears the Change of the World, it might depict the depravity and corruption of the Númenóreans and others who become followers of Sauron and Morgoth worshipers. Whether such elements are gratuitous or not might be a subjective opinion.

#FidelityToTolkien


ange1e4e5
Rodnog

Feb 8, 3:51am

Post #15 of 30 (387 views)
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We do have human sacrifice coming up for one. [In reply to] Can't Post

And I definitely think Ar-Pharazon took what he wanted from Miriel (daughter of Tar-Palantir).

I always follow my job through.


Chen G.
NahoR

Feb 8, 2:48pm

Post #16 of 30 (358 views)
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Exactly [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
...as the series nears the Change of the World, it might depict the depravity and corruption of the Númenóreans and others who become followers of Sauron and Morgoth worshipers. Whether such elements are gratuitous or not might be a subjective opinion.


My thoughts exactly. If the series is to sterile in its exploration of Numenorean decadence, it will feel all the more artificial for it.

Tolkien's greatest gift was the realism he infused into his fantasy, and while he drew the border at depicting the more carnal aspects of human life, that doesn't mean that the showrunners ought to follow suit, at least not to a T. Its their show, after all.

John Boorman's draft of The Lord of the Rings has become the laughing stock of the fans of this franchise and (especially judging by Excalibur) not unjustly. But, it should be said, his instinct of "dragging chaste Tolkien towards puberty" wasn't necessarily entirely off of the mark.

In fact, initially Jackson wanted to follow suit and show Arwen bathing with Aragorn in the Glittering Caves. Various drafts of the WingNut films also featured more swearing than the finished film. As Jackson said, he intended to make a cross of Braveheart and Legend, and the lack of ceremony when it comes to swearing, violence and depravity goes with that.

Again, I think if the level of depravity is on-par with Gladiator and Braveheart as opposed to the overkill of Game of Thrones and Excalibur, it could work very well.


(This post was edited by Chen G. on Feb 8, 2:57pm)


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Ronilav

Feb 8, 2:55pm

Post #17 of 30 (353 views)
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If they do include the story of Aldarion and Erendis: [In reply to] Can't Post

There could be some very tender and romantic scenes, before things go sour. If done correctly, that could be lovely.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Chen G.
NahoR

Feb 8, 3:06pm

Post #18 of 30 (348 views)
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But...but [In reply to] Can't Post

The story of Erendis and Eldarion takes place over 400 years before the "meat" of the Second Age, that being the Forging of the Great Rings, is set into motion.

Surely, this series - on its own - can't just jump about the timeline, even between seasons. It needs to introduce a cast of characters and stick with their stories if it is to have any hope of being the least bit compelling.

I mean, the longevity of the Numenoreans during the First Age would help with expanding the chronological scope, but you still can't truly encompass the whole of the Second Age.


(This post was edited by Chen G. on Feb 8, 3:09pm)


2ndBreffest
Neirol


Feb 8, 3:21pm

Post #19 of 30 (338 views)
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yes... [In reply to] Can't Post

again, it will all come down to how it is handled...there is a tasteful way to depict depravity, and not exploit it for the sole purpose of attracting a larger audience. GoT is pop culture throw away entertainment, so whatever, but Tolkien does not fall into that category and should not receive the same treatment.


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Ronilav

Feb 8, 4:01pm

Post #20 of 30 (321 views)
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But ... but [In reply to] Can't Post

I hear what you are saying, and certainly bow to your superior knowledge and experience as to structuring a narrative in a visual medium. But on the other hand, the story of Aldarion and Erendis is by far the most developed Second Age tale that Tolkien wrote (even if it was unfinished). It would be a shame if the showrunners can't find a way to incorporate it into the show, particularly with five or more seasons to work with.

That having been said, I agree it is unlikely that they will do so. Most likely they will take the safe way out. But time will tell.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


ange1e4e5
Rodnog

Feb 8, 4:18pm

Post #21 of 30 (321 views)
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I will also add that Gil-galad's death by Sauron's hands (literally) is pretty gory; [In reply to] Can't Post

Getting incinerated has to suck. And that was cut out of Peter Jackson's films


As to some of the events to cover in the Second Age: There's the Creation of Numenor and the War of the Elves and Sauron which includes the Forging of the Rings, just to start off some things. The death of Celebrimbor is definitely R-rated content, although I (and some others) are curious as to how making Celebrimbor into a flag would work from a physics standpoint. The Numenoreans lose their faith in the Valar because of the Gift of Men issue, Sauron sees an opening after Ar-Pharazon usurps his cousin and forces her to marry him. I can't imagine that not being mature content. Then we have Numenor being converted into a human sacrifice religion worshiping Melkor. And that's just a brief rundown. The Silmarillion Film Project (which is more of a television series) is trying to figure out what to cover in the years between the Coming of Men into the West and the Dagor Bragollach.


I would imagine that any adaptation of The Silmarillion would be mature content, particularly the Children of Hurin, what with the Easterlings' behavior (ie Brodda taking Aerin to wife against her will), what Forweg tries to do that results in his death, Saeros running off a cliff while naked, and Turin's incest with Nienor; bear in mind that the Niniel personality is three-four years old at the most when Turin marries her (which just adds to the level of squick).

I always follow my job through.


Chen G.
NahoR

Feb 8, 4:58pm

Post #22 of 30 (319 views)
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The Silmarillion [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The Silmarillion Film Project (which is more of a television series) is trying to figure out what to cover in the years between the Coming of Men into the West and the Dagor Bragollach.

I would imagine that any adaptation of The Silmarillion would be mature content, particularly the Children of Hurin.


My breakdown of the Silmarillion sidesteps the Coming of Men and the Dagor Bragollach, and focuses squarely on the three Great Tales, divided into four features.

The Darkening of Valinor is used as a prologue for Beren and Luthien, and the Wandering of Hurin and Sack of Doriath for the Fall of Gondolin, with the Voyage of Earendil weaved into it out-of-chronological-sequence as a series of dream sequences revealed to Tuor. The War of Wrath, an epilogue, appears in montage over a voiceover of Earendil pleading to the Valar.

Some beats are rearranged, with Turin's return to Dor Lomin placed BEFORE the Sack of Amon Rudh, and potentially with Boldog's attack on Doriath made concurrent with the fall of Tarn Aeluin, so that Luthien has to run away and meets Beren in the wild rather than in Neldoreth. The Children of Hurin is split into two features, cut around Beleg's death.

Seems elegant enough.


Quote
the story of Aldarion and Erendis is by far the most developed Second Age tale that Tolkien wrote


Absolutely agreed. I just can't see how it can be placed into the story, although of course the show can use non-linear intercutting, ala Intolerance, but I doubt it.


(This post was edited by Chen G. on Feb 8, 5:02pm)


Solicitr
NahoR


Feb 8, 6:43pm

Post #23 of 30 (301 views)
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Well, [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The story of Erendis and Eldarion takes place over 400 years before the "meat" of the Second Age, that being the Forging of the Great Rings, is set into motion.

Surely, this series - on its own - can't just jump about the timeline, even between seasons. It needs to introduce a cast of characters and stick with their stories if it is to have any hope of being the least bit compelling.

I mean, the longevity of the Numenoreans during the First Age would help with expanding the chronological scope, but you still can't truly encompass the whole of the Second Age.


You have that cast of core characters, with the Elves (and Sauron). Moreover, Numenoreans still live a good long time, and you have five seasons, so it's not like they're one-episode-and-done. I envision Ar-Pharazon being the key antihero of the whole final season..

I thought the miniseries Centennial worked quite well, even though the cast rotated as the generations changed.


ange1e4e5
Rodnog

Feb 8, 7:55pm

Post #24 of 30 (285 views)
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Why would the return to Dor-Lomin be before the sack of Amon Rudh? [In reply to] Can't Post

 

I always follow my job through.


Chen G.
NahoR

Feb 8, 8:37pm

Post #25 of 30 (278 views)
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It just doesn't work where it does in the book [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm all for tragic figures like Turin being dillusional, but to have him march all the way to Dor Lomin and then think he could still get back to save Finduilas in time is just hokey. But, as is often the case with editing, a setpiece that doesn't work in one part of the narrative can work miracles when put elsewhere.

By placing it in the first of two parts, you're giving a would-be rousing action climax before the tragic downfall, and you're giving that film a sense of resolution by having Turin return to the birthplace from which he was taken away in youth.


(This post was edited by Chen G. on Feb 8, 8:38pm)

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