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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Moor Gnidaer:
Nameless Things origin?


Feb 1, 7:35pm

Post #1 of 9 (476 views)
Nameless Things origin? Can't Post

Could these creatures be Maiars that Morgoth turned to his side during the time of the Lamps?


Feb 1, 8:23pm

Post #2 of 9 (456 views)
I'm not sure. [In reply to] Can't Post

To paraphrase Gandalf: "Sauron knows them not. They are older than him."

I'm not sure that these "nameless things" need all be of the same nature. At least some might be nature spirits corrupted by Morgoth's influence. Others might be actual beasts similarly corrupted.


uncle Iorlas

Feb 1, 9:56pm

Post #3 of 9 (444 views)
Anyway they needn't be evil. [In reply to] Can't Post

A quintessential example of a deliberate mystery that wouldn't really be improved by an explanation, I think.


Feb 2, 1:50am

Post #4 of 9 (419 views)
That's a good point. [In reply to] Can't Post

While it's possible that none of the "nameless things" might be characterizable as 'good', many might have no regard one way or the other towards the Free Peoples of Middle-earth.



Feb 2, 3:21am

Post #5 of 9 (407 views)
Hence, the term "nameless things" // [In reply to] Can't Post


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N.E. Brigand

Feb 2, 3:23am

Post #6 of 9 (409 views)
Perhaps comapre to C.S. Lewis's "Perelandra". // [In reply to] Can't Post


Treachery, treachery I fear; treachery of that miserable creature.

But so it must be. Let us remember that a traitor may betray himself and do good that he does not intend.

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Feb 2, 5:23am

Post #7 of 9 (404 views)
'Tell me, who are you, alone, yourself and nameless?' [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree that these creatures might be anything.

As a matter of fact we do know one - younger than Sauron but who has forgotten his own name, until recalled by Gandalf, or probably Sauron himself (when extracting memories about the Gladden Fields).
Also, the Mouth of Sauron had forgotten his name.
But as Tom implies, that might have happened to anyone.

And anyone, Sauron was around (if not specifically in Arda yet) when the lamps were overthrown. And I have always assumed the Misty Mountains and the Anduin date to the great upheavals that chaged the shape of Middle-earth when Utumno was overthrown.

If we still want to accept Gandalf's words literally, perhaps he simply means these creatures were at the roots of the Mountains before Sauron came to Hollin at the Second Age, so he had no chance to make their acquaintance...

Thinking about things I don't understand

uncle Iorlas

Feb 2, 3:09pm

Post #8 of 9 (375 views)
I've often thought of that parallel. [In reply to] Can't Post

In both Perelandra and Silver Chair, the subterranean deeps seem to be the idea that most compels Lewis to a Tolkienian gesture toward offstage mysteries.

uncle Iorlas

Feb 4, 12:09am

Post #9 of 9 (332 views)
you've set me to noodling [In reply to] Can't Post

It's Gandalf who tells us how Sméagol wormed his way under the Misty Mountains in search of great mysteries—only to find endless empty darkness without meaning. How odd to realize that Gandalf himself, later, brings back a report of mystery upon mystery from his own wild chase through the deeps under those same mountains, somewhat further south, confirming young Sméagol's whimsy in spades.

Which in turn makes me think: but in between, Gollum himself turned back to the Misty Mountains again, and crept inside again, didn't he? He must have, for Aragorn's supposition to be true that he picked up their trail when they passed through there. After centuries in a dead-end job on his little island, Gollum came back for a second crack at his mad passion, and this time he hit the jackpot. Epic dwarf city, abandoned, familiar goblin activity, ancient reawakened demon, lost mythic architecture, funky undiscovered biosphere if you keep going down... before those blasted hobbits came traipsing through his new digs waving his Precious around all over again, he'd managed to pull off a picture-perfect retirement scheme. Not bad for a bloke who'd had the misfortune to be questioned by Sauron personally.


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