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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Middle-earth TV Series Discussion:
Audition tapes: Tyra, Eldien, Beldor, and Aric
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kzer_za
Lorien

Oct 21, 12:03pm

Post #26 of 44 (1002 views)
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Pretty impressive how tight a ship Amazon is running [In reply to] Can't Post

These mockup audition scripts are the biggest leak so far, and it's still not that much.


Althoun
Lorien

Oct 21, 1:46pm

Post #27 of 44 (980 views)
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That's a great point about the Elessar! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Celebrian does appear and is mentioned throughout the History of Galadriel and Celeborn, even if she doesn't do anything noteworthy, but her receiving the Elessar in any case shows her interest in healing and growth, an artifact of the sort that Elessar fits her perfectly, a gentle soul with concern for others


Very good observation Heart!

In Unfinished Tales, we learn that:


Quote
"...The second Elessar was made also by Celebrimbor in Eregion at the request of the Lady Galadriel whom he loved, and it was not under the One, being made before Sauron rose again...But afterwards when Nenya, chief of the Three was sent to her by Celebrimbor, she needed it (as she thought) no more, and she gave it to Celebrían her daughter, and so it came to Arwen and to Aragorn who was called Elessar..."

-The History of Galadriel and Celeborn, Unfinished Tales


This could quite easily be made into a serious subplot involving Celebrían and linking her to her daughter Arwen, and thus to Aragorn and the original trilogy.

Galadriel surrenders the Elessar to Celebrían when she receives Nenya, the Ring of Adamant, from Celebrimbor to act as its Keeper.

Celebrían is supposed to then pass this heirloom onto her daughter at some point in the future but given that she suffers a tragic fate during the Third Age, at the hands of Orcs, Galadriel does this in her stead and then instructs her grandmother to entrust it to Aragorn (thus fulfilling the prophecy that someone in the line of Isildur would take up that name, 'Elessar,' and restore the dynasty).

And as you note, the Elessar has potent healing properties:


Quote
"... For it is said that those who looked through this stone saw things that were withered or burned healed again or as they were in the grace of their youth, and that the hands of one who held it brought to all that they touched healing from hurt."


This fits the 'Tyra' Elf-maiden from the mock-up audition script very well:


Quote
First scene

Tyra: The bears will get him if we leave him alone out here.
Hennah: So what?
Tyra: So? That’s not who we are.
Hennah: That’s not who YOU are.
Tyra: Look, we hit him. It was our wagon. We leave him out here anything that happens to him will be on our hands.
Hennah: And if we take him back anything bad that happens as a result of it will be our fault.
Tyra: Don’t be so superstitious. Come on, let me help him get out of the road. We need to get him somewhere safe, heal him and send him home.
Hennah: What home? His home out here in the snow? He is not another burden that we can take in. He is a human.
Tyra: I feel responsible for him.
Hennah: You feel responsible for everyone.
Tyra: This time it’s different. He is important. Somehow, I just know it. No, I won’t leave him here. Will you help me or not?
Hennah: NOT!
Tyra: Hennah!
Hennah: Alright, alright.



Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Oct 21, 2:57pm

Post #28 of 44 (968 views)
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Elf-women [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Celebrían is supposed to then pass this heirloom onto her daughter at some point in the future but given that she suffers a tragic fate during the Third Age, at the hands of Orcs, Galadriel does this in her stead and then instructs her grandmother to entrust it to Aragorn (thus fulfilling the prophecy that someone in the line of Isildur would take up that name, 'Elessar,' and restore the dynasty).


Of course, you meant, "...and then instructs her granddaughter..." as this is Galadriel speaking to Arwen.


In Reply To
This fits the 'Tyra' Elf-maiden from the mock-up audition script very well:


Quote
First scene

Tyra: The bears will get him if we leave him alone out here.
Hennah: So what?
Tyra: So? That’s not who we are.
Hennah: That’s not who YOU are.
Tyra: Look, we hit him. It was our wagon. We leave him out here anything that happens to him will be on our hands.
Hennah: And if we take him back anything bad that happens as a result of it will be our fault.
Tyra: Don’t be so superstitious. Come on, let me help him get out of the road. We need to get him somewhere safe, heal him and send him home.
Hennah: What home? His home out here in the snow? He is not another burden that we can take in. He is a human.
Tyra: I feel responsible for him.
Hennah: You feel responsible for everyone.
Tyra: This time it’s different. He is important. Somehow, I just know it. No, I won’t leave him here. Will you help me or not?
Hennah: NOT!
Tyra: Hennah!
Hennah: Alright, alright.



Yeah, Tyra could well be Celebrían. I note that the name 'Hennah' seems just as unlikely as Tyra to be intended to be the actual names of Elf-women, though Hennah would work perfectly well as the name of a human woman.

"Change is inevitable. Growth is optional." - DRWolf (after John C. Maxwell)


Althoun
Lorien

Oct 21, 3:13pm

Post #29 of 44 (962 views)
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Haha, don't you just love typos? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
Celebrían is supposed to then pass this heirloom onto her daughter at some point in the future but given that she suffers a tragic fate during the Third Age, at the hands of Orcs, Galadriel does this in her stead and then instructs her grandmother to entrust it to Aragorn (thus fulfilling the prophecy that someone in the line of Isildur would take up that name, 'Elessar,' and restore the dynasty).


Of course, you meant, "...and then instructs her granddaughter..." as this is Galadriel speaking to Arwen.


Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Rohan


Oct 21, 4:55pm

Post #30 of 44 (947 views)
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My guess is that Tyra is a Silvan elf [In reply to] Can't Post

Leaving aside the scene setting, which may be mainly fabricated, the dialogue is far more rustic and less archaic than any of the other three.
I also feel like Beldor is probably an elf, only because it seems that he must have a very close relationship with Eldien: otherwise why would their scenes be structured around each other? Then again, I don't know enough about the inner workings of this process, so I'm just guessing.
As for Aric, I feel like he could be Annatar/Sauron.

"It is my duty to fight" - Mulan


Althoun
Lorien

Oct 21, 7:20pm

Post #31 of 44 (916 views)
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I read her lack of erudition/archaism in speech as a sign of youth... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Leaving aside the scene setting, which may be mainly fabricated, the dialogue is far more rustic and less archaic than any of the other three.
I also feel like Beldor is probably an elf, only because it seems that he must have a very close relationship with Eldien: otherwise why would their scenes be structured around each other? Then again, I don't know enough about the inner workings of this process, so I'm just guessing.
As for Aric, I feel like he could be Annatar/Sauron.


You are quite right that Tyra (and her confrere 'Hennah') has a speech-pattern which is discernibly more rustic, or perhaps less elevated, than Eldien or Beldor. A brilliant observation.

As you say, this very well could be a sign of her lower social status (Silvan elf) but I'm not so sure.

In her dialogue with the sister/friend, Tyra is demonstrably rather 'youthful' or naive - talking to her friend about a 'doll' and acting in an almost childlike fashion.

My suspicion is that she is a very young Elf - perhaps under a hundred years old (the Elven age of full maturity) or even fifty years (when Elven puberty ends). The actress, Markella Kavenagh, is still a teenager - the youngest of the reported cast members (Poulter and Baldry are in their 20s).

Since the series is set during the Second Age and will involve still fully-functioning Elvish kingdoms (i.e. Eregion, a settled city as opposed to a secret forest or glade), we should expect to see child-Elves and other signs of a more flourishing civilisation.

The Elves as a race are not yet in their fading years of the Third Age.

Likewise, the references to 'snow' could still be Eregion - for in The Fellowship of the Ring, LoTR Book 2, Ch 3, The Ring Goes South when the Company enter Hollin for the first time, we are told that: "away in the south Frodo could see the dim shapes of lofty mountains that seemed now to stand across the path that the Company was taking. At the left of this high range rose three peaks; the tallest and nearest stood up like a tooth tipped with snow".

Because of its proximity to the Misty Mountains, there would have been snow aplenty on the high ground outside the walls of Ost-in-edhil (if we can give the hints as to the setting any credence, which we may not), should the young Elf-maids have wandered up the foothills.

I think your Silvan Elf theory ticks many boxes and has a good chance of being correct but I'm still thinking she might be Celebrían - born at an unspecified time somewhere around the middle of the Second Age. She could easily be a very, very young Elf as appears to be the case with 'Tyra'.


(This post was edited by Althoun on Oct 21, 7:33pm)


Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Rohan


Oct 21, 7:58pm

Post #32 of 44 (893 views)
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That would certainly make sense [In reply to] Can't Post

I would kind of like a Silvan protagonist, if only because it would be nice to see a different viewpoint of Elven affairs, so to speak, than we've gotten previously.

Good point about the snow - though what about the bears? Obviously, many of the details in the scene could be made up: honestly, though, I can't remember Tolkien ever referencing bears even once in all his writings...am I forgetting an instance?

In case anyone would like to check it out, I wrote a very in-depth analysis of the many clues provided by the sample scenes which you can check out on my blog.
https://the-wide-screen-with-leith-skilling.com/amazon-prime/the-lord-of-the-rings/amazons-lord-of-the-rings-auditions-reveal-new-characters/

"It is my duty to fight" - Mulan


Althoun
Lorien

Oct 21, 9:28pm

Post #33 of 44 (876 views)
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Your blog-post was a very good read [In reply to] Can't Post

I particularly liked your analysis of the Eldien, Beldor and Aric transcripts. A lot of great insights in there.


In Reply To
I would kind of like a Silvan protagonist, if only because it would be nice to see a different viewpoint of Elven affairs, so to speak, than we've gotten previously.


Well, Jackson has already gone 'there' with Tauriel - she was a Silvan Elf of Mirkwood (although her diction, delivery and vocabularly were not any less refined than high Elves like Galadriel and Thranduil, which is why I reckon Tyra is simply very young and naive).


Quote
Good point about the snow - though what about the bears?


No bears that I'm aware of - I reckon that is audition script code for 'Orcs' from the Misty Mountains. We know from the WoT auditions that they changed every key-word/concept/location that might give the game away about plot:


Quote
“The Dark” is the Dark One
“Shaman” is Wisdom
“Your City” is Tar Valon
“Your Sisters” is Aes Sedai
“Read the Signs” is most likely wielding the power or channeling



I read 'bears' immediately as "Orcs" having attacked and seemingly left for dead a man in the woods (likely around the Misty Mountains near Eregion?).

What really makes me think the location might be Eregion (and thus extending to the Misty Mountains where Orcs could be roaming) is that Tyra's friend Branna had "run back from the berries" in the second scene.

The region of Middle-earth famous for its 'berries' was Eregion - otherwise known as "Hollin" because of the abundance of holly trees with red berries growing from their leaves i.e.


Quote
"The travellers reached a low ridge crowned with ancient holly-trees whose grey-green trunks seemed to have been built out of the very stone of the hills. Their dark leaves shone and their berries glowed red in the light of the rising sun."

The Fellowship of the Ring, LoTR Book 2, Ch 3, The Ring Goes South


In that same second scene involving 'Tyra', reference is made by her to the fact that she "should have never left [Branna] on that cliff" and the conjunction of berries (holly trees?), snow (Misty Mountains) and "cliffs" clearly indicates Eregion to me i.e.


Quote
They reached the strip of dry land between the lake and the cliffs.... A mile southwards along the shore they came upon holly trees. Stumps and dead boughs were rotting in the shallows, the remains it seemed of old thickets, or of a hedge that had once lined the road across the drowned valley. But close under the cliff there stood, still strong and living, two tall trees, larger than any trees of holly that Frodo had ever seen or imagined. Their great roots spread from the wall to the water. Under the looming cliffs they had looked like mere bushes, when seen far off...; but now they towered overhead, stiff, dark, and silent, throwing deep night-shadows about their feet, standing like sentinel pillars at the end of the road.

'Well, here we are at last!' said Gandalf. 'Here the Elven-way from Hollin ended. Holly was the token of the people of that land, and they planted it here to mark the end of their domain; for the West-door was made chiefly for their use in their traffic with the Lords of Moria. Those were happier days, when there was still close friendship at times between folk of different race, even between Dwarves and Elves.'


To me, we probably have two Elf-maids from Eregion that have strayed far along the Elven-way from the capital Ost-in-edhil and got lost in the foothills of Misty Mountains where there are cliffs.

And since Galadriel may very well be the 'ruler' of Eregion if Amazon follow Unfinished Tales, this young Eregion elf-maiden is probably her daughter Celebrían (and she fits many of the other aspects we would expect from Celebrían, as I mentioned before).

Now, bearing in mind, the entire scene might be fake as it was obviously created for the purposes of the audition - but some of these smaller details might really be taken from scripts and messed around with. So we work with what we've got.

I can't help but wonder, like you do, if the "Man" they found is Annatar - although quite why he would appear to Elves in the form of a Man eludes me.

But the foreshadowing - Hennah warning that anything "bad that happens as a result of [taking him back home] will be our fault", which Tyra dismisses as 'superstition' but then ominously says, "He is important. Somehow, I just know it." - speaks Annatar cunningly exploiting an impressionable, naive young Elf-maid to get into the fortress kingdom of the Noldor (Ost-in-edhil literally means "fortress of the Elves") after he has been refused entry to Lindon by Gil-galad.

Maybe, because Annatar presents himself as a forerunner to the Istari (in that, like them, he claims to be an incarnate emissary of the Valar) who appeared in the forms of Old Men, it would make sense for him to take a human form - not least because he ultimately hopes one day to intercept the Númenóreans and sail to their faraway land.

But it does look possible that the wounded man might be Sauron pretending to be a human male who has been ambushed and left to die by Orcs, so that he can be the object of pity and interest from the young Elf-maid who takes him back to her kingdom to be healed - and if she were the daughter, Celebrían, of the ruler of Eregion, Galadriel - then that would of course be a double victory for Annatar.

Because, in the text of the History of Galadriel in Unfinished Tales, one of the unresolved mysteries that even Christopher Tolkien alludes to in his notes, is why Galadriel - in spite of her prophetic sense that a new evil is rising and that Annatar is not what he seems - would permit him both to enter and remain in Eregion for centuries, long enough to forge the rings, seduce the smiths and orchestrate a coup against her, when even Gil-galad - not as farsighted as Galadriel - discerned that he was so unworthy of trust as to bar him from settling in Lindon.

If he were able to slip in under the guise of being a wounded man cared for by Galadriel's own tender-hearted daughter in her own house/palace, with whom he deliberately nurtures a bond, that could make more sense. He would have access immediately to all the movers-and-shakers of Eregion as a ward under the protection of Galadriel.

Anyway, the scene might be entirely misleading and unrepresentative of anything in the show except for the character traits, so who knows.


(This post was edited by Althoun on Oct 21, 9:41pm)


kzer_za
Lorien

Oct 21, 9:51pm

Post #34 of 44 (856 views)
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This scenario is uncomfortably close to Sauron seducing Galadriel's daughter... [In reply to] Can't Post

If he were able to slip in under the guise of being a wounded man cared for by Galadriel's own tender-hearted daughter in her own house/palace, with whom he deliberately nurtures a bond, that could make more sense. He would have access immediately to all the movers-and-shakers of Eregion as a ward under the protection of Galadriel.

Well, it's only one extra step to go there to an affair if she's nursing him already! Frown

Maybe she could marry Elrond early to close that off. But of course, this is all major speculation based off fake placeholder scripts anyway.


(This post was edited by kzer_za on Oct 21, 10:00pm)


Althoun
Lorien

Oct 21, 9:56pm

Post #35 of 44 (846 views)
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Haha [In reply to] Can't Post

Certainly NOT my meaning or intention, but point well taken!

It just seems to me that the emphasis in the placeholder audition script (and one has to work with the internal logic here of what might be 'fluff' with no actual derivation from or relationship with the actual scripts, so all this speculation is heavily caveated) - mysterious man found lying wounded by (Orcs?) in the woods by two Elf-maids, one of whom thinks he bodes ill for their people if they care for him and the other who thinks he's somehow 'important, I just know it' - seems to suggest that he is a figure of power and peril. Why does Tyra think he's so important and why does Hennah think he's so dangerous, which Tyra dismisses as 'superstition'?

It would not be too much of a leap to think that he's Sauron under disguise, playing some kind of trick on the Elf-maids to get back to their "home" i.e. Eregion, so that he can enter under a kind of trojan horse strategy. Otherwise, I don't get why all the foreshadowing in their discussion is necessary to the vignette (which must be intended to showcase Tyra's tender-heartedness and desire to heal the wounded).


(This post was edited by Althoun on Oct 21, 10:08pm)


kzer_za
Lorien

Oct 21, 9:59pm

Post #36 of 44 (837 views)
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Aric's script doesn't really say "Sauron" to me [In reply to] Can't Post

Sauron is deceptive and super charismatic; I assume they would want to test for that in the audition. Aric comes across as a snarky self-centered antihero.


Althoun
Lorien

Oct 21, 10:02pm

Post #37 of 44 (833 views)
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I agree... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Sauron is deceptive and super charismatic; I assume they would want to test for that in the audition. Aric comes across as a snarky self-centered antihero.


Annatar is meant to seem fair and benevolent. Indeed, he originally has quasi-idealistic or at least justifiable-seeming goals for the benefit of his subjects and allies.

I think his identification is the weakest link in the speculations people have been making, and he may very well not be anything of the kind.

At first, I thought 'Aric' might be a native of Minhiriath and Enedwaith fleeing from the Númenóreans.

I do wonder why a guy with questionable morals trying to save his neck, an amoral 'anti-hero' type, would be a main character....


(This post was edited by Althoun on Oct 21, 10:08pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Oct 24, 4:07am

Post #38 of 44 (681 views)
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TEE-ra? [In reply to] Can't Post

An Aside: If it turns out that Tyra is not a placeholder name, but really is a new character created for this show, does this name sound better if it is said as TEE-ra (possibly a more classical pronunciation) as opposed to TIE-ra?

"Change is inevitable. Growth is optional." - DRWolf (after John C. Maxwell)


The Dude
The Shire

Oct 24, 9:05am

Post #39 of 44 (657 views)
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If Tyra is not a placeholder name... [In reply to] Can't Post

...it should ideally be pronounced /tyra/, i.e., the first vowel should be a high front rounded vowel (/y/) as in French lune (/lyn/) or German tüchtig (/'tyçtiç/). The sound is difficult to master, however, for people who are not familiar with it: the final vowel in the name Éowyn also should be pronounced as /y/ but I cannot recall anyone in the films who used it.


(This post was edited by The Dude on Oct 24, 9:06am)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Oct 24, 12:44pm

Post #40 of 44 (636 views)
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Thanks! [In reply to] Can't Post

In the English language, the long 'e' sound seems to come closest to your /y/, so TEE-ra it is.

"Change is inevitable. Growth is optional." - DRWolf (after John C. Maxwell)


Hasuwandil
Rivendell


Oct 30, 2:37pm

Post #41 of 44 (575 views)
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It depends [In reply to] Can't Post

In The Two Towers Extended Edition, Théoden, played by Bernard Hill, pronounces simbelmynë something like "sim-bul-MOO-nuh". So, following his example, one would pronound Tyra in English as "TOO-ruh", or perhaps better, "TOOR-uh". However, if I didn't try to pronounce the y as ü, I myself would be inclined to pronounce Tyra in English as "TIR-uh" if I made a connection between it and the Norse god Tyr. Not that there necessarily is such a connection. The name Tyra is actually a Latinized form of the Old Danish name Thyrvi, which is related to a different Norse god, namely Thor.

Hêlâ Auriwandil, angilô berhtost,
oƀar Middangard mannum gisandid!


Solicitr
Rohan

Oct 30, 5:15pm

Post #42 of 44 (547 views)
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Well, [In reply to] Can't Post

The problem with that is that simbelmynë is Rohirric, i.e. Old English; the Sindarin name was Alfirin.

While Sindarin did possess y, prononced ü, it only formed by i-fronting of u (most commonly in plurals, a memory of the lost plural suffix -i); so "Tyra" is not possible as a Sindarin name.


The Dude
The Shire

Oct 30, 5:22pm

Post #43 of 44 (545 views)
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I looked up that scene with Bernard Hill... [In reply to] Can't Post

...and to my great surprise he actually pronounces it correctly, (/simbelmyne:/). The "y" in his Simbelmynë is in fact an /y/, but it is not as long as in the example I linked above. Nice touch, I must say.

The reason why I am stressing this is because both in Old English and Old Norse (and also in Sindarin (!)), the letter y was pronounced as /y/. Tyra is a Nordic name, so if they actually go with that name (unlikely though), it would only be appropriate if they used that pronunciation.


Hasuwandil
Rivendell


Oct 30, 6:58pm

Post #44 of 44 (520 views)
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Not Sindarin [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm addressing those who are suggesting that Tyra is supposed to be a Norse name. I'm not persuaded myself, although one could make the case that Narvi is a precedent from the Second Age. But then the name ought to be at most Anglicized, but not Latinized.

I could make the case that Tyra, pronounced as expected in Modern English, may actually be from taira, a variant (predecessor?) of the Qenya tára ("high", "lofty", "tall"), but I think it stretches credulity. More likely the names were chosen without much care, at least for the audition scripts.

Hêlâ Auriwandil, angilô berhtost,
oƀar Middangard mannum gisandid!

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