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uncle Iorlas
Rohan
Oct 14 2019, 8:12pm
Post #1 of 21
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"He did off the star of the north kingdom and gave it into the keeping of the sons of Elrond"
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I'm quoting from memory and probably erroneously, but close. This gesture has always baffled me. Is it supposed to be one more round of ceremonious promise, in this case maybe to ruin the standard his girlfriend just gave him until they actually come north to fix up Arnor a year or two after coronation?
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The Dude
Rivendell
Oct 14 2019, 8:45pm
Post #2 of 21
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Your memory does not betray you.
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The line appears on page 843 in The Houses of Healing.
If one reads the entire page (starting from "Now as the sun went down Aragorn and Éomer (...)"), it becomes quite clear, in my opinion, why Aragorn took off "the Star of the North Kingdom". He does not want to enter the city like an opportunistic conqueror; an upstart from the North who saw an opportunity to usurp the throne of Gondor in a moment of crisis. Aragorn therefore "deem(s) the time unripe" to enter the city of Minas Tirith adorned with the insignia of his rule. Instead he chooses to enter the city as "a captain of the Rangers, who are unused to cities and houses of stone".
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squire
Half-elven
Oct 14 2019, 9:28pm
Post #3 of 21
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A side question arises, as well
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When he gave it to the sons of Elrond, how did that actually work?
Aragorn: Brothers, keep this for me until my time has come. [Gives it to Elrohir, who is slightly nearer to him. Leaves]
Elrohir: [bows] It will be safe with me, I mean, us.
Elladan: All right, hand it over.
Elrohir: No, he gave it to me.
Elladan: He gave it into our keeping. He said Brothers, as in the two of us. Like always.
Elohir: So?
Elladan: I'm the older, so I get to hold it.
Elohir: Uh-uh. He gave it to me. The honor I'll share with you -- we'll tell Galarion the scribe back home that we both kept it. But I get to actually keep it.
Elladan: Are you serious, little boy?
Elrohir: As always, big guy. Try and take it - I'm not younger by much.
Elladan: How about we share it? You give it to me tomorrow and get it back the day after, and so on.
Elrohir: Aragorn wouldn't like that. He gave it to me.
Elladan: How do you know he wouldn't? For all we know, he thought you were me in the first place. He can't tell us apart, you know.
Elrohir: I know, I know. What a pain he can be.
Elladan: You keep the jewel, I keep the chain. How about that?
Elrohir: That's dumb. That's like we both hold it and then ride into battle, each with a hand holding the thing while I fight lefty. Which I hate.
Elladan: Not that you're all that great righty either.
Elrohir. Stop it! I hate when you tease me about that!
Elladan: Nah Nah Nah, Lefty RIghty Hate to Fighty!
Elrohir: Now you're never getting this stupid thing!
Elladan: Oh come on, I was teasing. That was when we were ten. You fight just fine now and you know it.
Elrohir: Umph.
Elladan: I'm sorry. I apologize!
Elrohir: Well. OK.
Elladan: How about we give it to the Prince? He seems like a righteous lord.
Elrohir: Is that keeping faith with Aragorn? He said Brothers: us.
Elladan: We'll get it back when it's all over, and he'll never know where it was. He's got a lot on his plate just now, and this squabble of ours isn't helping us help him like he needs. Give it to Imrahil, and I'll never tell.
Elrohir: All right, that makes sense. Better brothers in arms than brothers in pain!
Elladan: The harder the fighting the stronger the twain!
Both: I love you, bro.
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The Dude
Rivendell
Oct 14 2019, 9:43pm
Post #4 of 21
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Now I will have to actively work on forgetting your "Seinfeld - frat boys" rendition of that scene - otherwise I will recall it when reading that passage again. ^^
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Aelfwine
Rivendell
Oct 14 2019, 11:54pm
Post #5 of 21
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"while I fight lefty. Which I hate."
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Actually, the Elves were ambidextrous (see Vinyar Tengwar 49, pp. 6, 9).
--
Carl F. Hostetter
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InTheChair
Rohan
Oct 15 2019, 8:22pm
Post #6 of 21
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Need a memory pick-up on this one
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What is The Star of the North Kingdom? Why was Aragorn wearing it? When did he put it on? Did have it with him all along or did he get it after the Grey Company arrived?
Is this the same stone that was called the Elendilmir? The copy of the real Elendilmir that Saruman had locked up in his vault?
Or is it only referring to a similar kind of star that the Sons of Elrond wear to keep their cloaks buttoned up?
If it is Elendilmir, is it ever mentioned that Aragorn `wore it before he decided to take it off and give it to the twins?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Oct 15 2019, 9:26pm
Post #7 of 21
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What is The Star of the North Kingdom? Why was Aragorn wearing it? When did he put it on? Did have it with him all along or did he get it after the Grey Company arrived?
Is this the same stone that was called the Elendilmir? The copy of the real Elendilmir that Saruman had locked up in his vault?
Or is it only referring to a similar kind of star that the Sons of Elrond wear to keep their cloaks buttoned up?
If it is Elendilmir, is it ever mentioned that Aragorn `wore it before he decided to take it off and give it to the twins?
Yes, he Star of Elendil was "[a] diamond, one of the heirlooms of the North-kingdom," according to Robert Foster in The Complete Guide to Middle-earth. Foster continues: "It represented Eärendil, which had served as a guide to the Edain when they sailed to Númenor. The Star was worn on the brow of the Kings of the North-kingdom until Elessar gave it to Sam Gamgee in FO 16.
"Also called the Star of the Dúnedain, the Star of the North, and the Elendilmir."
The original had been lost with the death of Isildur, so this would have been the copy made by the smiths of Rivendell. The original would not be recovered until after the War of the Ring when it would be found within the Tower of Orthanc. I don't think Aragorn left Rivendell with the copy; it was probably presented to him by either Elladan or Elrohir of the Grey Company.
"Change is inevitable. Growth is optional." - DRWolf (after John C. Maxwell)
(This post was edited by entmaiden on Oct 16 2019, 1:42am)
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Oct 16 2019, 1:15am
Post #8 of 21
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Christopher Tolkien believes otherwise.
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Somewhere in The History of Middle-earth, he specifically questions Robert Foster's opinion that the star given to Samwise is the replacement Elendilmir, and then in a later HoMe volume he takes up a reader's suggestion about what Sam's star might really be.
Treachery, treachery I fear; treachery of that miserable creature.
But so it must be. Let us remember that a traitor may betray himself and do good that he does not intend.
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squire
Half-elven
Oct 16 2019, 3:02am
Post #9 of 21
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I guess you are thinking of this passage in Unfinished Tales, in the footnotes to "The Disaster of the Gladden Fields":
[Note 33] ... The clear implication of the present passage [i.e., the penultimate paragraph of the main text, where Aragorn preserves and keeps both the original and the replacement pendants] is that King Elessar retained indefinitely the Elendilmir that was made for Valandil; and it seems to me in any case out of the question that he would have made a gift of it to the Mayor of the Shire, however greatly he esteemed him. The Elendilmir is called by several names: the Star of Elendil, the Star of the North, the Star of the Northkingdom;
(break inserted here to highlight the almost invisible semicolon that separates all the previous names from the next name, that of Sam's gift from the King)
and the Star of the Dúnedain (occurring only in this entry in the Tale of Years) is assumed to be yet another both in Robert Foster’s Guide and in J. E. A. Tyier’s Tolkien Companion. I have found no other reference to it; but it seems to me to be almost certain that it was not, and that Master Samwise received some different (and more suitable) distinction. I've no memory of the second CT discussion of this question, which indicates you're correct that it can be found in History of Middle-earth.
Step back for a second to the original question about Aragorn's wearing it, then doffing it before entering the city in Book V of Lord of the RIngs. I can't find or remember where in the book, if anywhere, we read of his receiving it from the Sons of Elrond, or of his putting it on before entering the Battle of the Pelennor Fields after debarking from the ships at the Harlond. As far as I can tell, he's simply wearing it and we have, at that point, no particular idea what the heck it is:
But before all went Aragorn with the Flame of the West, Andúril like a new fire kindled, Narsil re-forged as deadly as of old: and upon his brow was the Star of Elendil. - LR V.6 Another bit of the old razzle-dazzle from the Prof.
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uncle Iorlas
Rohan
Oct 16 2019, 3:23am
Post #10 of 21
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I think it would be wrong of me not to confess my foolishness.
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Only in the last couple years has it really stuck in my head that there was an Elendilmir at all, or an Elessar either. All these years I thought this passage actually meant that Aragorn pulled one of the seven stars off of the big standard that Arwen sent to him care of her brothers, the embroidery of which she apparently spends most of the war working on. I thought he got this present and then almost immediately mangled it for symbolic reasons I couldn't fathom.
I'd like to think I would have worked it out eventually, but thank you all, nevertheless, for setting me straight on it. Taking off the crown that marks him as sort-of king of sort-of somewhere does seem the discreet move here.
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InTheChair
Rohan
Oct 16 2019, 6:31pm
Post #11 of 21
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Taking off the crown that marks him as sort-of king of sort-of somewhere does seem the discreet move here.
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Maybe another case of Tolkien introducing something into the texts without time or intent of going back to retrofit it where applicable, but..
The Star of the North then seems like Something Aragorn ought to have worn on his brow when he presented himself as the Heir of Isildur to Sauron through the Palantir.
If he did get it from the Grey Company this would at least be possible, though it is not mentioned.
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Solicitr
Gondor
Oct 16 2019, 7:13pm
Post #12 of 21
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Later in HME (probably IX), CT acknowledged that he had been mistaken in UT and that a reader's suggestion was certainly "correct" - that the Star of the North Kingdom was the "brooch like a rayed star" worn by the members of the Grey Company, presumably as a badge of the Northern Dunedain. When later (Appendix B) Elessar gives the SotNK to the Mayor (Sam), it can be seen as rather like conferring an order of knighthood, bumping Sam's status up to equal that of Merry and Pippin.
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Solicitr
Gondor
Oct 17 2019, 12:35pm
Post #14 of 21
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reread and heavily revised parts of Book V while preparing the material that would become Appendix B, because his timelines in the first draft simply didn't work and had to be adjusted. In particular, he had to re-do the Grey Company sections because he realized that he had them riding from Erech to Pelargir at a pace faster than Shadowfax could go!
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squire
Half-elven
Oct 17 2019, 6:48pm
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For some reason I thought it was the other way around
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I mean, I thought he revised the intricacies of his separated story lines, once he'd gotten them all written down, by building in note form a continuous time line. Then, since he already had it, he published the time line as part of his Tale of Years appendix.
Thus the adjustments to the Grey Company's wild ride and all the other lengthenings and shortenings were a normal part of his process, not a set of later revisions made solely and luckily as a result of developing, post-facto, a timeline for an appendix.
But your larger point is certainly a good one. To have actually remembered the starry brooches early in Book V in order to intend that particular honor for Mayor Sam is no tall order for Tolkien - that's the way his writer's mind worked.
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Solicitr
Gondor
Oct 18 2019, 1:28pm
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T first started using parallel-time schemes during the writing of Book 4. But that didn't mean they were perfect,, or worked out to his satisfaction. The Pelennor was originally fought on March 14th, but he had to go back and adjust things by a day to give the Grey Company more time (sadly, that also slowed Shadowfax' ride from Dol Baran to something just barely within the capability of a real horse). He also reluctantly had to give up on the idea that the two Naqzgul that flew over Frodo in the Dead Marches were the same two that flew over Dol Baran and Edoras- the timing just didn't work.
Even as late as the galley-proof stage, he added the night spent sleeping on the ground in Lorien, because he realized that walking blindfold the company wasn't going to cover the 40-50 miles from Nimrodel to Caras Galadhon in a day. (He didn't however remember to fix Aragorn's line that "tonight I shall sleep without fear for the first time since we left Rivendell").
Oh, and then he had to re-work all the dates again when he invented the Shire-reckoning (when he was writing the story, everything was Gregorian).
(This post was edited by Solicitr on Oct 18 2019, 1:35pm)
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Oct 22 2019, 1:38am
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Nice to "see" you!
Although probably you, like me, tend to regularly lurk in the RR more than respond nowadays.
Could you quote the passages from that publication which support this?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
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Solicitr
Gondor
Oct 22 2019, 9:29pm
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From "Eldarin Hands, Fingers and Numerals"
"No distinction was felt between right and left by the Eldar. There was nothing queer, ill-omened (sinister), weak, or inferior about the 'left.' Nor anything more correct and proper (right), of good omen, or honour about the 'right.' The Eldar were 'ambidexters,' and the allocation of different habitual duties or services to the right or the left was a purely individual and personal matter, undirected by any inherited racial habit"
There are also some brief passages (in quenya!) reprinted in VT 49: 3-4.
(This post was edited by Solicitr on Oct 22 2019, 9:30pm)
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squire
Half-elven
Oct 22 2019, 10:06pm
Post #19 of 21
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So, just as with the question of "The King's Ear", we have to ask what degree of "handedness" the Half-elven folk displayed?
For we know that Hobbits and Men favored their right hands, from numerous references throughout Lord of the Rings.
In the original jokey gag (which is hardly canon, to put it mildly), the Halfelven brethren clearly train to fight with both hands but prefer the right. Maybe that is the correct degree of melding of the all-right-hand Mannish mode, and the ambidextrous Elven mode?
(As a left-handed swipe at the whole topic, I found by looking that, the fascinating note in V.T. #47 aside, there are numerous references in The Silmarillion that indicate that Elves and even the Valar did favor the right hand.)
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sador
Half-elven
Oct 27 2019, 6:03pm
Post #20 of 21
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In the Ainulindale, the first music is ended by his raising his left hand (while smiling), the second by raising his right (while frowning), and the third by raising both hands. This suggests an asyemmetry.
And the clearest, and most relevant to your 'jokey gag', is Maedhros. At the very least, he had trained to fight with his right hand, learning to wield a sword with his left only once he had no other option.
Thinking about things I don't understand
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Solicitr
Gondor
Oct 28 2019, 12:48am
Post #21 of 21
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In the Ainulindale, the first music is ended by his raising his left hand (while smiling), the second by raising his right (while frowning), and the third by raising both hands. This suggests an asyemmetry.
And the clearest, and most relevant to your 'jokey gag', is Maedhros. At the very least, he had trained to fight with his right hand, learning to wield a sword with his left only once he had no other option.
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