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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Middle-earth TV Series Discussion:
Elros' ears and other problems
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Dunadan of North Arnor
Bree

Sep 15, 2:11am

Post #26 of 77 (854 views)
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Good answer. Bad question. [In reply to] Can't Post

Of course. He was the most supremely powerful Man, no question. But there’s idiocy and then there’s idiocy. Taking on the Valar because you want to avert Death is idiocy. That’s the story after all. Hitler was supremely powerful and an idiot, and that’s as close as I’ll get to modern politics. But being completely oblivious to the Ring, wielded willy-nilly under his nose, is idiocy of a different kind, and one to which I cannot suspend my disbelief.

The Ring wasn’t in Númenor, period. As Solicitr puts it, the Ring was his Soul-Jar, created to prevent what happened to his master Morgoth. It meant he had a back-up to being captured or banished by the Powers. The 3rd Age and the entire story of the LOTR is about that! For him to have brought his Soul-Jar with him to an island near the West, on a mission to convince the most powerful Man and his armada to challenge those Powers, after himself having witnessed the sinking of Beleriand, is beyond idiocy - it’s not realistic or believable in any way. (He rather should have mailed the Ring to the Marx Brothers, for those that get the reference).

That’s my story and I’m sticking with it Faithful One. :)


(This post was edited by Dunadan of North Arnor on Sep 15, 2:15am)


Dunadan of North Arnor
Bree

Sep 15, 2:25am

Post #27 of 77 (850 views)
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Thank you Hasuwandil! [In reply to] Can't Post

There’s some good in this world and it’s worth fighting for... :)


kzer_za
Lorien

Sep 15, 12:27pm

Post #28 of 77 (805 views)
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Sauron suffered two major defeats in a row [In reply to] Can't Post

After the drowning, he was sufficiently weakened that he could no longer take a "fair form." His defeat by Elendil and co. could have crippled his powers enough that his spirit could no longer take the Ring or any physical form awhile. Exactly how he was able and when he was able to re-embody himself (which Jackson did not portray, though I think it was a reasonable cinematic choice for the most part) by the late Third Age is unclear as I recall.

People tend to behave stupidly around the Ring. It's stupid for Denethor to want to just hide the Ring deep in Minas Tirith just in case, but that's his "plan" anyway. Also, Sauron's final corruption of Pharazon and Numenor writ large is basically the Ring's corruption of individuals writ large, and Sauron being able to make them worship Morgoth is more believable if he has the Ring. There are a variety of ways they could show Pharazon allowing it - maybe he thinks he'd like to experiment with it himself, maybe Sauron just uses its powers of persuasion to convince him.

I don't think Sauron expected the drowning to happen (it required a rare direct intervention from Eru), merely a smaller cataclysm like the destruction of the armada. As we see in LotR, Sauron has a weakness for hubris and not considering all the possibilities.

Also Amazon is going to want to have the Ring play a major role in the later seasons I think. Whatever canonical oddities need to be smoothed over (and really the most we can say is that Tolkien probably hadn't fully worked this out), I do think it's narratively and thematically sensible to have it there.


(This post was edited by kzer_za on Sep 15, 12:38pm)


kzer_za
Lorien

Sep 15, 12:47pm

Post #29 of 77 (799 views)
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Maybe Pharazon takes the Ring for himself when he captures Sauron [In reply to] Can't Post

And stores it somewhere "safe." Then Sauron later convinces Pharazon to give it back as he starts gradually worming his way into the king's inner circle.

(edit limit expired, needed a new post)


(This post was edited by kzer_za on Sep 15, 12:47pm)


fantasywind
The Shire

Sep 15, 4:21pm

Post #30 of 77 (786 views)
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Third Age Sauron and Ring [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I’m referring to your thesis of a mighty Ainu, an incorporeal and telekinetic soul, able to do with the Ring as his disembodied spirit pleases; but is then unable to maintain or recover the Ring for 3000 years, and eventually is oblivious to a disparate band making its way with said Ring to his very land.
If you can convince me, without unreasonable contradiction or fan-fic, how Sauron & the Ring’s relationship differed so drastically between the 2nd Age & the 3rd, I’ll listen. But you can’t have it both ways.
And, more importantly perhaps, to bring this on topic to this particular Forum, I’m wondering how Amazon is going to successfully present, to a general movie-going audience of Jackson’s LOTR, that the Ring, cleaved as it was from Sauron in his prologue, separated for millennia, dramatically narrated by Galadriel, mandating the journey of the Novel of the Century, can be just casually floated across the Sea to land perfectly with Sauron’s omnipotence, innocently awaiting his ‘clothing’. They may say, what the hell is this ****? Just as the sparkplug Rhona Beare did 60 years ago!


It's very easy actually and here hints are given in another Tolkien letter. At the end of Second Age, at the final moment of War of the Last Alliance, Sauron gets his second death, and with this second death he loses some portion of 'energy' which makes him weaker and his spirit unanchored flees as far as possible, a huge blow to him, (and certainly disorienting experience for his spirit) and in the same time Isildur takes hold of the Ring. The first death in the Downfall already took from him ability to appear in fair form, he no longer could assume beautiful shape, he lost that power, and his bodies would afterwards no longer be able to hide the corruption of his spirit (so would be hideous and terrifying) the second death would take even greater toll on him, hence the much, much longer period of recovery. After that Sauron no longer knew where the Ring was and it was beyond his reach, first death had it on his person without anyone else to take hold of it and he wasn't yet 'fallen' so low.


Quote
"[..] It was because of this pre-occupation with the Children of God that the spirits [The Ainur] so often took the form and likeness of the Children, especially after their appearance. It was thus that Sauron appeared in this shape. It is mythologically supposed that when this shape was 'real', that is a physical actuality in the physical world and not a vision transferred from mind to mind, it took some time to build up. It was then destructible like other physical organisms. But that of course did not destroy the spirit, nor dismiss it from the world to which it was bound until the end. After the battle with Gilgalad [sic] and Elendil, Sauron took a long while to re-build, longer than he had done after the downfall of Númenor (I suppose because each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, which might be called the 'will' or the effective link between the indestructible mind and being and the realization of its imagination). The impossibility of re-building after the destruction of the Ring, is sufficiently clear 'mythologically' in the present book.'"


This in the same time explains why Sauron would not be able to take Ring the second time. In HOME X 'Morgoth's Ring', Text VII, 'Myths Transformed', JRRT writes:


Quote
"[..] The Elves certainly held and taught that fëar or 'spirits' may grow of their own life (independently of the body), even as they may be hurt and healed, be diminished and renewed. [The following was added marginally after the page was written: If they do not sink below a certain level. Since no fëa can be annihilated, reduced to zero or not-existing, it is no[t] clear what is meant. Thus Sauron was said to have fallen below the point of ever recovering, though he had previously recovered. What is probably meant is that a 'wicked' spirit becomes fixed in a certain desire or ambition, and if it cannot repent then this desire becomes virtually its whole being. But the desire may be wholly beyond the weakness it has fallen to, and it will then be unable to withdraw its attention from the unobtainable desire, even to attend to itself. It will then remain for ever in impotent desire or memory of desire.]"


Besides the Ring and Sauron while inherently linked together need to be relatively 'physically' close to each other especially so that Sauron could sense it. It is said that Sauron would have seen anyone wearing the Ring in certain immediate area, like inside Mordor and so Sauron becomes aware when Frodo puts it on on his finger (there's also the case of the Ring growing in strength the closer to Orodruin it is to reach it's peak, the Ring is so closely resonating with Sauron that when he is inactive so the Ring becomes more 'dormant' but when Sauron is at work and his strength returning so the Ring is more active and Sauron also as mentioned purposefully sends out his thoughts to reach it, to draw it to himself, this was the reason why Ring abandoned Gollum after spending enough time with him, to what extent the Ring acts on it's own, as is often stated, would require separate analysis). Sauron is not omnipotent, omnipresent and all knowing, though he may strive to be, he has limits and when his personal power is under such fluctuations due to expending so much of himself and being destroyed which would dissipate some amount of his inner strength and take more to rebuild himself a new shape would be natural cause of this particular set of events.

Sauron was always at his peak in earlier time, Third Age War of the Ring sees him recovered to the point of being a powerful threat once again but not to the full potential he once had (quite besides the fact that without the Ring he is no longer enhanced as Ring made him MORE powerful than even originally he was in say First Age). Well in any case we can say that Tolkien's letters would be viewed as extension of author's own vision, so as letter has it: "‘He naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most of the Númenóreans.’"

In general there are various what we call 'retcons' happening in Tolkien stories (The Hobbit has one such example) but Tolkien actually tried to make everything as consistent as possible.


fantasywind
The Shire

Sep 15, 4:37pm

Post #31 of 77 (780 views)
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Sauron's plan for Numenor [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Of course. He was the most supremely powerful Man, no question. But there’s idiocy and then there’s idiocy. Taking on the Valar because you want to avert Death is idiocy. That’s the story after all. Hitler was supremely powerful and an idiot, and that’s as close as I’ll get to modern politics. But being completely oblivious to the Ring, wielded willy-nilly under his nose, is idiocy of a different kind, and one to which I cannot suspend my disbelief.
The Ring wasn’t in Númenor, period. As Solicitr puts it, the Ring was his Soul-Jar, created to prevent what happened to his master Morgoth. It meant he had a back-up to being captured or banished by the Powers. The 3rd Age and the entire story of the LOTR is about that! For him to have brought his Soul-Jar with him to an island near the West, on a mission to convince the most powerful Man and his armada to challenge those Powers, after himself having witnessed the sinking of Beleriand, is beyond idiocy - it’s not realistic or believable in any way. (He rather should have mailed the Ring to the Marx Brothers, for those that get the reference).
That’s my story and I’m sticking with it Faithful One. :)


Actually Sauron did not intend for the Downfall of Numenor to happen this way, as in entire island being taken down with him on it. He only wanted to destroy Ar-Pharazon as his personal great nemesis, destroy the man who thought he could be his rival for power over the whole world. As far as the Akallebeth says:


Quote
"For Sauron himself was filled with great fear at the wrath of the Valar, and the doom that Eru laid upon sea and land. It was greater far than aught he had looked for, hoping only for the death of the Númenóreans and the defeat of their proud king. And Sauron, sitting in his black seat in the midst of the Temple, had laughed when he heard the trumpets of Ar-Pharazôn sounding for battle; and again he had laughed when he heard the thunder of the storm; and a third time, even as he laughed at his own thought, thinking what he would do now in the world, being rid of the Edain for ever, he was taken in the midst of his mirth, and his seat and his temple fell into the abyss."


In Sauron's plans Numenorean king and army is destroyed when they invade Aman and he remains to rule what remains of Numenor and rest of the world at his leisure, but Iluvatar makes a full reset and entire island is destroyed and cataclysm smashes a large portion of the world, changing everything, the power and destruction unleashed is far greater than anticipated. The Ring is not exactly what the 'soul-jar' is, not entirely, it is amplifier artifact which enhances power of Sauron, makes him stronger than he was by his nature. Sauron wearing the Ring is stronger than before, in the same time the Ring preserved the power that was put in it, but the Ring purpose was to gain more complete control, as the Ring's power of dominating minds is greater than anything else. As Tolkien writes:


Quote
"But to achieve this he had been obliged to let a great part of his own inherent power (a frequent and very significant motive in myth and fairy-story) pass into the One Ring. While he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished'. Unless some other seized it and became possessed of it. If that happened, the new possessor could (if sufficiently strong and heroic by nature) challenge Sauron, become master of all that he had learned or done since the making of the One Ring, and so overthrow him and usurp his place. This was the essential weakness he had introduced into his situation in his effort (largely unsuccessful) to enslave the Elves, and in his desire to establish a control over the minds and wills of his servants. There was another weakness: if the One Ring was actually unmade, annihilated, then its power would be dissolved, Sauron's own being would be diminished to vanishing point, and he would be reduced to a shadow, a mere memory of malicious will. But that he never contemplated nor feared. The Ring was unbreakable by any smithcraft less than his own. It was indissoluble in any fire, save the undying subterranean fire where it was made – and that was unapproachable, in Mordor. Also so great was the Ring's power of lust, that anyone who used it became mastered by it; it was beyond the strength of any will (even his own) to injure it, cast it away, or neglect it. So he thought. It was in any case on his finger. Sauron would not have feared the Ring! It was his own and under his will. Even from afar he had an effect upon it, to make it work for its return to himself. In his actual presence none but very few of equal stature could have hoped to withhold it from him. Of 'mortals' no one, not even Aragorn.

The Ring of Sauron is only one of the various mythical treatments of the placing of one's life, or power, in some external object, which is thus exposed to capture or destruction with disastrous results to oneself. If I were to 'philosophize' this myth, or at least the Ring of Sauron, I should say it was a mythical way of representing the truth that potency (or perhaps rather potentiality) if it is to be exercised, and produce results, has to be externalized and so as it were passes, to a greater or less degree, out of one's direct control. A man who wishes to exert 'power' must have subjects, who are not himself. But he then depends on them."



Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Sep 16, 5:41pm

Post #32 of 77 (725 views)
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Honestly, whether or not the Ring was in Numenor is not very important to me [In reply to] Can't Post

As Squire (and you yourself) have noted, when Tolkien originally wrote the story of the Downfall of Numenor, the One Ring did not even exist. But the story of a powerful king (eventually Ar-Pharazon,the Golden, but in the earliest versions called "Angor the Mighty" and then "Tar-kalion the golden") corrupted by power and the fear of death, goaded on by the representative of evil still remaining in the world despite Morgoth's banishment (already known as Sauron) is what makes it such a resonating tale.

Ring or no Ring.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Sep 16, 10:01pm

Post #33 of 77 (704 views)
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"I have exhausted my vocabulary, and nearly fused the telephone-wires." [In reply to] Can't Post

Great quote!

What sort of profanity was Tolkien likely to have used?


Treachery, treachery I fear; treachery of that miserable creature.

But so it must be. Let us remember that a traitor may betray himself and do good that he does not intend.


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Solicitr
Rohan

Sep 16, 11:37pm

Post #34 of 77 (687 views)
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To [In reply to] Can't Post

exhaust Tolkien's vocabulary must have been one marathon rant indeed.


Dunadan of North Arnor
Bree

Sep 17, 12:48am

Post #35 of 77 (682 views)
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Which all very much helps to makes the case [In reply to] Can't Post

that the Ring didn’t need to be in Numenor, and the Ring wasn’t in Numenor.


Dunadan of North Arnor
Bree

Sep 17, 1:48am

Post #36 of 77 (673 views)
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and would have made [In reply to] Can't Post

any impending letters written, done under such duress, that they must be thrown out in any court indeed :)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 17, 4:11am

Post #37 of 77 (661 views)
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The question is... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Which all very much helps to makes the case that the Ring didn’t need to be in Numenor, and the Ring wasn’t in Numenor.


...what would have prompted Sauron to leave the Master Ring behind (presumably in Mordor)? He surely would have had it in his possession when he first went to confront Ar-Pharazon's forces. To whom would he have entrusted his Ring when he saw the might of Numenor and decided on the tactic of surrendering himself? I don't see that happening.

"Change is inevitable. Growth is optional." - DRWolf (after John C. Maxwell)

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 17, 4:17am)


The Dude
The Shire

Sep 17, 6:32am

Post #38 of 77 (646 views)
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Returning to the TV series... [In reply to] Can't Post

I doubt that Sauron will leave the Ring behind before he goes to Númenor. The two main story-lines of the Second Age, the tale of the rings (1) and the rise and fall of Númenor (2), do not always coincide in Tolkien's oeuvre, but I am hesitant to say that the ring will completely vanish from the series once we come to that stage.

The better question is what role the Ring will play in the downfall of Númenor. It could very well be, for example, that the showrunners decide that Ar-Pharazôn is somehow under the influence of the One Ring, i.e., that the proximity to the Ring increases his desire for immortality. I am not saying this is a good idea, but again, if I were a betting man, I would predict that the Ring will have some important role to play in the storyline about "Sauron in Númenor". The alternative would be that Sauron actually leaves the Ring behind with one of his most trusted servant's in Middle-earth, e.g., the Witch-king, a character that viewers will probably already be familiar with by now (having seen him become a wraith). In this scenario we could very well get a B-plot, coinciding with the Númenor plotline, in which the Witch-king, in the possession of the Ring, is busy corrupting other men in Middle-earth. Again, not my preferred version (in this case I would actually prefer something along the lines of option A).

In any case - it is highely unlikely that the Ring will simply vanish from the series, only to return with the Last Alliance.


Dunadan of North Arnor
Bree

Sep 17, 6:56am

Post #39 of 77 (642 views)
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The answer is... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
...what would have prompted Sauron to leave the Master Ring behind (presumably in Mordor)?


Survival.


In Reply To
He surely would have had it in his possession when he first went to confront Ar-Pharazon's forces.


No. He did not confront Ar-Pharazôn’s forces at all, he “came [alone] and made no offer of battle... he was crafty, well-skilled to gain what he would by subtlety”


In Reply To
To whom would he have entrusted his Ring when he saw the might of Numenor and decided on the tactic of surrendering himself?


No one. It was locked within the Foundations of Barad-dur - completed by the same sorcery, at the same time, as the Ring - along with the Nine Rings (and those of the Seven). The Nazgûl, completely corrupted as slaves, were no threat to him, and did not wear the Rings; the Foundations of Barad-dur were as indestructible as the Ring, as the result of the Last Alliance proved. That’s a million times safer, and smarter, than bringing it along with you, alone, to an island in the West before the World was changed, within reach of the Valar, not to mention Ar-Pharazôn himself!


(This post was edited by Dunadan of North Arnor on Sep 17, 7:06am)


Dunadan of North Arnor
Bree

Sep 17, 7:51am

Post #40 of 77 (636 views)
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Okay, conceding to Amazons possible interests [In reply to] Can't Post

IF the Ring is a necessary accoutrement of Sauron in Numenor for maximum dramatic effect in the TV Series, then use his shape-shifting abilities! The history of Sauron is replete with shape-changing. Show him morphing into/out-of Annatar and a more diabolical form at a point during the forging of the Rings. Then have him use his established shape-shifting to give him the ability to completely hide the Ring from the Numenoreans, with the obligatory nod to the audience. Pretty easy, so far.

When Numenor falls, and Sauron goes “down into the abyss, but his spirit arose and fled back on a dark wind”, have him morph into a vampire-bat with the Ring around it’s neck, bolting back to Mordor...

That’s the best I can offer :)


(This post was edited by Dunadan of North Arnor on Sep 17, 7:55am)


Dunadan of North Arnor
Bree

Sep 17, 8:28am

Post #41 of 77 (638 views)
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What sort of profanity? [In reply to] Can't Post

“That Rhona Beare, asking her ******* questions, like I know what the hell’s going on? I just tried to enjoy a fortnight in the only place I can get a rest these days from that ******* LOTR, not to mention the wife & kids; and it turned out to be a ******* nightmare of a trip!

“ ‘Bit and bridle’, colours of other wizards, and holy ****, the Ring in Numenor? God****** I don’t know! I’m gonna down a pint, draw a huge ******* cone of a hat, and wing the rest!”

RIP Rhona Beare Heart


The Dude
The Shire

Sep 17, 8:31am

Post #42 of 77 (628 views)
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I know you are half-joking... [In reply to] Can't Post

but I think it is essential for the series to show that Sauron did not anticipate the utter destruction of Númenor, and thus that he did not perish there willingly. Otherwise, viewers might very well get the impression that the whole turn of events was Sauron's plan from the beginning. The series must show that the downfall of Númenor is actually, in many ways, a major loss for the Deceiver: physically on a personal level but also strategically. If Sauron drowns in the series but then immediatly turns into a bat and flies away with the Ring, it would look like a video-game boss who just lost one of his lives and now is back to full health.

A more subtle solution might be that the Ring actually washes up on the shores of Middle-earth; perhaps with the implication that Sauron's spirit - although weakened - still had the ability somehow to will the Ring to wash up there (an ability that he lost when he perished yet again later).*

*On the assumption that Ossë was busy elsewhere.


Dunadan of North Arnor
Bree

Sep 17, 9:04am

Post #43 of 77 (624 views)
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I actually wasn’t, and I disagree [In reply to] Can't Post

The Ring washing up on the shore of Middle-earth and being recovered by Sauron, however you attempt it, would be, IMO, far more convoluted than the swift phoenix rising out of the abyss by an established shape-changer.

And, although I think the show should display Ar-Pharazôn as all-powerful, it is ‘Lord of the Rings’ after all, and it should have Sauron be the ultimate provocateur. Maybe not anticipating the sinking of the island and Change of the World, but certainly behind it all, and not the ultimate loser in the Downfall!


(This post was edited by Dunadan of North Arnor on Sep 17, 9:06am)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 17, 2:41pm

Post #44 of 77 (586 views)
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Sauron leaving the Ring in Barad-dûr [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
...what would have prompted Sauron to leave the Master Ring behind (presumably in Mordor)?


Survival.


Survival? What would he have feared? His survival was assured unless the Ring was unmade--a circumstance that was inconceivable to him. And he did not anticipate the destruction of Númenor.


In Reply To

In Reply To
He surely would have had it in his possession when he first went to confront Ar-Pharazon's forces.


No. He did not confront Ar-Pharazôn’s forces at all, he “came [alone] and made no offer of battle... he was crafty, well-skilled to gain what he would by subtlety”


Okay, I'll concede you that point.


In Reply To

In Reply To
To whom would he have entrusted his Ring when he saw the might of Numenor and decided on the tactic of surrendering himself?


No one. It was locked within the Foundations of Barad-dur - completed by the same sorcery, at the same time, as the Ring - along with the Nine Rings (and those of the Seven). The Nazgûl, completely corrupted as slaves, were no threat to him, and did not wear the Rings; the Foundations of Barad-dur were as indestructible as the Ring, as the result of the Last Alliance proved. That’s a million times safer, and smarter, than bringing it along with you, alone, to an island in the West before the World was changed, within reach of the Valar, not to mention Ar-Pharazôn himself!


Tolkien seems to rebut this idea himself in his letters. But, beyond that, would Sauron have trusted that none of the Nazgûl would think to take the Ring for themselves? I don't buy that his confidence in the loyalty of the Ringwraiths was absolute. It can be argued that this scenario raises just as many questions as the idea of Sauron taking the Ring to Númenor.

"Change is inevitable. Growth is optional." - DRWolf (after John C. Maxwell)

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 17, 2:47pm)


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Sep 17, 3:57pm

Post #45 of 77 (571 views)
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Proof [In reply to] Can't Post

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAgnJDJN4VA

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Dunadan of North Arnor
Bree

Sep 17, 4:04pm

Post #46 of 77 (567 views)
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How does he rebut it? [In reply to] Can't Post

Please tell me before you dismiss me. The Nine Rings were housed in the Foundations, and the Nine were slaves. Talk to Michael Martinez if you’re insistent on the Nazgûl wearing the Rings, not housed by Sauron, and a threat to his existence.

And Sauron feared being taken by the Powers, as his master was, that’s why he created the Ring & Barad-dur! I’ve gone over this and have exhausted my vocabulary and fused the telephone wires!

Everybody is going thru hoops and doing backflips to explain the bloody Ring in Numenor. I’ve challenged all 17 ridiculous theories, made a simple case, and stand by the fact that it could not be there.

But I’ve moved on from the Floating Ringers and proposed the most likely scenario I can make for a dramatic interpretation of the events of the Ring in Numenor for a TV series.

There is no rant to continue with me. :)


kzer_za
Lorien

Sep 17, 4:14pm

Post #47 of 77 (561 views)
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At the end of the day, we still have a clear statement from Tolkien in the letters contradicting you [In reply to] Can't Post

Even if written in an exhausted frame of mind, there is nothing in the legendarium that clearly says he didn't have it. Taking up the ring "again" is weak; it can easily be read consistently with Sauron having the Ring.

Are there tensions and difficulties fitting it with everything else? Yes, but the same is true of other things in the mythology once you go past the Third Age, or even within it. For example, The Hobbit has anachronisms and buffoonish dwarves and silly elves and the big Gollum retcon, LotR proper is very inconsistent on whether we should sympathize at all with the orcs (even setting aside speculations recorded in Morgoth's Ring). Glorfindel wasn't "fixed" until very late. It would prefer to say that yes, he had the Ring but Tolkien hadn't worked all the details out than that his only direct statement on the question was completely wrong. I know "canon" is a fuzzy concept in the legendarium, but even if we don't take that letter as definitive the Ring in Numenor is an ambiguous matter at most.

And I really disagree that Sauron "knew Numenor was a suicide mission." I think he expected to return home on a ship.


(This post was edited by kzer_za on Sep 17, 4:28pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 17, 5:01pm

Post #48 of 77 (543 views)
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Sauron in Númenor [In reply to] Can't Post


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Please tell me before you dismiss me. The Nine Rings were housed in the Foundations, and the Nine were slaves. Talk to Michael Martinez if you’re insistent on the Nazgûl wearing the Rings, not housed by Sauron, and a threat to his existence.


The Nine are not an issue as far as I'm concerned. I am solely discussing Sauron and the Master Ring.


In Reply To
Everybody is going thru hoops and doing backflips to explain the bloody Ring in Numenor. I’ve challenged all 17 ridiculous theories, made a simple case, and stand by the fact that it could not be there.

But I’ve moved on from the Floating Ringers and proposed the most likely scenario I can make for a dramatic interpretation of the events of the Ring in Numenor for a TV series.

There is no rant to continue with me. :)


I dispute your use of the word 'fact' in light of Tolkien's own comments on the matter of Sauron bearing the Ring to Númenor. The Dark Lord could well have been able to conceal its presence from the perception of others; Gandalf and the other bearers of the Three would seem to have a similar ability. The power stored within the Ring could have been sufficient to allow the disembodied Maia to bear it back to Middle-earth.

"Change is inevitable. Growth is optional." - DRWolf (after John C. Maxwell)

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 17, 5:02pm)


InTheChair
Lorien

Sep 17, 6:38pm

Post #49 of 77 (527 views)
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See it as something to work with. [In reply to] Can't Post

Elrond and Elros ears would not be a problem. As half-elven Amazon could just opt to give them both human ears.


How did Sauron get the ring out of Numenor?

I think we can rule out most of the practical solutions.

1. He left it at home? No! The Numenoreans would not let him come and go as he wished, and he could not have foreseen how long it would take to convince them.

2. He predicted the downfall and sent it away with someone completely under his control? No! He did not predict the downfall, and even assuming the ring had not at this early stage such power on ambitious minds as it later acquired, I do not think he would have trusted anybody else with it.

3. He changes shape and flies away with it? No! When Illuvatar puts down the hammer it would be bad form for Sauron to dodge.

4. There were two rings. Saurons spirit beeing its true master extracted all the power from it before it fled away and after re-clothing himself he re-forged the shape with new material? No! Conceptual faux pas.

5. The ring went to the bottom of the sea. So did Saurons spirit and re-clothed himself as a narwhal. No! That's Ulmo's domain and Sauron likes it no better than did Morgoth. And besides, it's stupid.

So Amazon should really trust in the wonders of fairy-tale for this one.

The relative ease with which he takes a new shape afterwards gives us some indication of his capacity at this time. We can note with interest that even weaker spirits such as those inhabiting the Paths of the Dead in the third age appears with spirit swords and spirit banners. Where did they get those? Funny how Old Bombadil made it seem like the ring disappeared with a flash. Conjurers trick maybe. There is Gandalf's staff, but he probably got a new one.

Either way I don't think Amazon should try to explain how the ring gets away. They should view it as a dramatic opportunity. The destruction of Saurons body and the loss of the ring will do for good cinematics, and his surprising reappearance will do for dramatic if tropey effect. Not for us of course, but there must be a substantial part of the intended audience that has never cast eyes on the Downfall of Numenor and do not know the cliff-notes.


Dunadan of North Arnor
Bree

Sep 18, 2:45pm

Post #50 of 77 (486 views)
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So do just as Tolkien did & hope no one notices... [In reply to] Can't Post

That ain’t bad, as far as it being the best option for Amazon that’s been put forward by anyone here, myself included, so far.

You wouldn’t have to show the Ring on Sauron’s finger at all. Minimize the cinematic dependence on him flagrantly wielding the Ring way back in Middle-earth, and focus totally on dialogue-driven interaction between him, Ar-Pharazôn, and the Numenoreans. It wouldn’t even need to show up again until his return to form in Mordor.

Wing it and keep us guessing just as Tolkien did, thus actually adhering to canon in a backwards sort of way! I daresay you’ve won, and I wave the white flag. Congratulations!

(Of course there will be millennial Rhona Beare’s coming out of the woodwork left and right at this! But they’ll probably blame Amazon and not Tolkien anyway. Brilliant!)


(This post was edited by Dunadan of North Arnor on Sep 18, 2:51pm)

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