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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Did Sauron have the One Ring while in Numenor?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 24, 4:40am

Post #26 of 34 (1556 views)
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Well, then disregard Occam's Razor [In reply to] Can't Post

It's enough that Tolkien seemed content to allow the Ring to be taken to Númenor and made no attempt to contradict the idea. If he had seriously meant the Ring to remain at Barad-dûr, there surely would have been some mention of that in either the "Akallabêth" or his essay "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age".

"Change is inevitable. Growth is optional." - DRWolf (after John C. Maxwell)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 24, 4:50am

Post #27 of 34 (1554 views)
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Possibly the most powerful. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
And “one of the most powerful” Maiar?
Or THE most powerful? Either way the question remains, how he could be so impotent to the Ring in the 3rd Age?


There were Maiar or Maiar-like beings such as Ungoliant or Tom Bombadil that might have rivaled or even surpassed Sauron in power.

"Change is inevitable. Growth is optional." - DRWolf (after John C. Maxwell)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 24, 5:03am

Post #28 of 34 (1554 views)
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Evidence [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Further, Occum’s Razor will side with there being absolutely no textual evidence of the Ring in Numenor, versus there being absolutely no textual evidence of there NOT being a Ring in Numenor!

Absence plus absence equals ABSENSE! Absence plus absence does not equal PRESENCE! Once again using your Occum’s Razor :)


In lieu of textual evidence, we can cite anecdotal evidence from Tolkien (Letter 211) that the Ring was taken to Númenor and that Sauron himself bore it back to Middle-earth.


Quote
Sauron was first defeated by a 'miracle': a direct action of God the Creator, changing the fashion of the world, when appealed to by Manwë: see III p. 317. Though reduced to 'a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind', I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended. That Sauron was not himself destroyed in the anger of the One is not my fault: the problem of evil, and its apparent toleration, is a permanent one for all who concern themselves with our world. The indestructibility of spirits with free wills, even by the Creator of them, is also an inevitable feature, if one either believes in their existence, or feigns it in a story.


"Change is inevitable. Growth is optional." - DRWolf (after John C. Maxwell)

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 24, 5:07am)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 25, 3:05pm

Post #29 of 34 (1443 views)
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Amazon's Map of Middle-earth in the Second Age [In reply to] Can't Post

Source: https://www.amazon.com/adlp/lotronprime

Interestingly enough, the map at @LOTRonPrime has added a road from the Havens of Umbar (that I will designate the Umbar Road) that meets with the Harad Road just south of the Crossing at the River Harnen (previously misidentified by me as the River Narnen). The distance to the crossing of the roads is approximately 125 leagues (375 miles). A pace of even five leagues per day would place the army less than halfway to the crossing, and it might have taken two months or more for the main force to reach the Gates of Mordor. So, yeah, Sauron did have some time in which to order his plans.

"Change is inevitable. Growth is optional." - DRWolf (after John C. Maxwell)


InTheChair
Lorien

Sep 25, 9:17pm

Post #30 of 34 (1419 views)
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Ar-Pharazon migt had though he had better things himself. [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
But maybe he took it with him. The Ring may well have been very useful in manipulating Ar-Pharazon to his will. In fact, with further speculation Sauron may even have allowed the King of Numenor to use it.


That seems unecessary. He could have given Ar-Pharazon one of the nine, which would make him one of the Nazgul, though if that happened I feel it would have been somehow mentioned or known. Strange that this option was not afforded to Ar-Pharazon who was so obviously obsessed with not dying. Although from Saurons perspective he wanted revenge on Ar-Pharazon, not to help him, so If he gave him anything I suspect he gave him just a plain ring and claimed it had powers it didn't possess.

It seems to have been (to Ar-Pharazon) the case anyway that Sauron was defeated inspite of his ring, so even assuming Ar-Pharazon knew about it, he might have deemed it of little worth.

It's also perhaps a bit superfluous to try to entice the most powerful King in Middle-Earth with a ring that is supposed to give him what he already has.



(This post was edited by InTheChair on Sep 25, 9:26pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 25, 9:41pm

Post #31 of 34 (1415 views)
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Too Late! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
He could have given Ar-Pharazon one of the nine, which would make him one of the Nazgul, though if that happened I feel it would have been somehow mentioned or known. Strange that this option was not afforded to Ar-Pharazon who was so obviously obsessed with not dying. Although from Saurons perspective he wanted revenge on Ar-Pharazon, not to help him, so If he gave him anything I suspect he gave him just a plain ring and claimed it had powers it didn't possess.


That would not have been an option; the Nine Rings had been distributed long before the time of Ar-Pharazôn so that the Ringwraiths first appeared in their undead forms about S.A. 2250. And the Seven had been given to Dwarf-lords and so were also unavailable. I do not think, though that Sauron would have allowed the King of Númenor to use the One Ring. I doubt he would have even allowed others to perceive its presence if it could be cloaked from their senses. Sauron's plan was to have Ar-Pharazôn destroy himself by encouraging him to break the Ban of the Valar. Prolonging his life through one of the Great Rings would not have played into that scheme.

"Change is inevitable. Growth is optional." - DRWolf (after John C. Maxwell)


InTheChair
Lorien

Sep 25, 10:48pm

Post #32 of 34 (1402 views)
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Aha, the stock was already depleted. [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes. On reflection I'm not sure Ar-Pharazon would have been that interested in one of the nine either. He must even in his fall have been wiser than most king of Middle-Earth. At least he was aware of the existence of Aman and of true deathlessness, which I think is what he desired. A second best existence as an undead, or a prolonging of his mortality with one of the rings, would probably not have been in his scopes.

At least Saurons plea to him goes along those lines. though, doubtless, the gift of life unending is not for all, but only for such as are worthy rather than offer him a ring that could prolong his existence but never alter his nature.

On the other hand I think it is said that three who did receive rings were Numenoreans. Never easy to know with Tolkien.

The role of the one ring at this time I do not know. If it is considered an extension of Sauron, then the physical presence of himself seem to render it meaningless as a tool of influence. The lure of the ring compared with the lure of Sauron in person (pre-fall) must have seen insignificant, and with Sauron wearing the ring there might not even have been any distinction.


Hamfast Gamgee
Grey Havens

Oct 1, 8:08am

Post #33 of 34 (1088 views)
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Maybe it was entrusted to one of the black Numenoreans [In reply to] Can't Post

Those that where deep in Sauron's arts but traitors and defectors. Would have been the type of thing they where their for.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Oct 1, 1:59pm

Post #34 of 34 (1082 views)
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Would Sauron trust Men though? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Maybe it was entrusted to one of the black Numenoreans
Those that where deep in Sauron's arts but traitors and defectors. Would have been the type of thing they where their for.


Sauron might have trusted such Men with his lesser treasures, but the Master Ring? Given its corrupting powers, I don't think he would have willingly allowed anyone else to take possession of it even if it was only meant to be temporary.

"Change is inevitable. Growth is optional." - DRWolf (after John C. Maxwell)

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