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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Middle-earth TV Series Discussion:
Will Poulter cast in Amazon's Lord of the Rings!
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fantasywind
The Shire

Sep 11, 4:22pm

Post #26 of 47 (740 views)
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Source material vs inventions [In reply to] Can't Post


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In Reply To
I hope not. What that would mean, is fan-fic. (And, yes, professional writers who get paid for writing in a pre-existing IP can definitely write what is nothing more than fan-fic, often bad.

A lot of characters, situations and environments are going to have to be invented out of whole cloth by the writers regardless, in order to make a complete world with which Tolkien's existing characters can interact. There is not enough existing material otherwise to sufficiently flesh out the Second Age of Middle-earth. The same would hold true if the series was set in the early or middle Third Age, or even if the show had really told the story of Aragorn's early errantries and journeys.


I would say there is quite a bit of canon material for Second Age stories, it all depends which ones will be in focus of the show, which events will be portrayed. As for Aragorn adventures, I would say there is far more thing laid out already, and the only actual inventions of purely original thought would be those journeys into "far countries of Rhun and Harad where the stars are strange" as Aragorn: "went alone far into the East and deep into the South, exploring the hearts of Men, both evil and good, and uncovering the plots and devices of the servants of Sauron." These would require completely from scratch writing of the plot elements, rest would only had some fleshing out things putting more detail into them. Still for me the essence of any adaptation would be to have the core from Tolkien writings.

I would hope for Mariner's Wife story being adapted and then showing events in Eregion, using material from UT History of Galadriel and Celeborn and then leading to War of the Elves and Sauron which is described and then later times Akallabeth and War of the Last Alliance (the last one would require stitching various sources together for more cinematic moments, but core of the material is in 'Of the Rings of Power...' essay. Basing the main show plot around bunch of purely original characters would be risky move, they in the end would not be able to affect history of the world without alterations to lore, as the main players were canon characters.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 12, 12:56am

Post #27 of 47 (721 views)
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Yes, as far as it goes. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I would say there is quite a bit of canon material for Second Age stories, it all depends which ones will be in focus of the show, which events will be portrayed. As for Aragorn adventures, I would say there is far more thing laid out already, and the only actual inventions of purely original thought would be those journeys into "far countries of Rhun and Harad where the stars are strange" as Aragorn: "went alone far into the East and deep into the South, exploring the hearts of Men, both evil and good, and uncovering the plots and devices of the servants of Sauron." These would require completely from scratch writing of the plot elements, rest would only had some fleshing out things putting more detail into them. Still for me the essence of any adaptation would be to have the core from Tolkien writings.

I would hope for Mariner's Wife story being adapted and then showing events in Eregion, using material from UT History of Galadriel and Celeborn and then leading to War of the Elves and Sauron which is described and then later times Akallabeth and War of the Last Alliance (the last one would require stitching various sources together for more cinematic moments, but core of the material is in 'Of the Rings of Power...' essay. Basing the main show plot around bunch of purely original characters would be risky move, they in the end would not be able to affect history of the world without alterations to lore, as the main players were canon characters.

'

My point is that Tolkien's published material on the Second and Third Ages is not enough, on its own, to sustain a long-form television series without greatly expanding upon it*. One might be able to produce a limited series as an adaptation of "The Mariner's Wife." "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen" could be turned into a single feature without adding to it, but it might not be a very satisfying experience since much of the text is no more than the briefest outline of Aragorn's experiences over many year.

* The obvious exceptions being the narratives of The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings.

"Change is inevitable. Growth is optional." - DRWolf (after John C. Maxwell)


cats16
Valinor


Sep 12, 5:17am

Post #28 of 47 (701 views)
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I agree with this, too. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Join us every weekend in the Hobbit movie forum for this week's CHOW (Chapter of the Week) discussion!




Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Sep 12, 2:08pm

Post #29 of 47 (658 views)
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I am very doubtful [In reply to] Can't Post

That much if any of The Mariner's Wife will be included in the series, much as I personally like it.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 12, 2:45pm

Post #30 of 47 (655 views)
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Same here. [In reply to] Can't Post

"The Mariner's Wife" might be a likely candidate for a spin off though. It is the closest thing to a complete narrative set in the Second Age.

"Change is inevitable. Growth is optional." - DRWolf (after John C. Maxwell)


uncle Iorlas
Rivendell


Sep 12, 6:12pm

Post #31 of 47 (636 views)
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no matter what happens [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I hope not. What that would mean, is fan-fic.]


The show will be fan fic. There was never any other possibility. It's going to be very expensive fan fic, and maybe it'll be great. We can hope.

Trying to re-create the disaster that was Hugo Weaving playing Elrond would not be the way to make it so, but I digress...


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 12, 6:17pm

Post #32 of 47 (635 views)
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Hugo Weaving as Elrond [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Trying to re-create the disaster that was Hugo Weaving playing Elrond would not be the way to make it so, but I digress...


What was so bad about Weaving's Elrond that can be traced to the actor himself? I can understand how you might have been dissatisfied by how Elrond was characterized, but can't we lay that at Peter Jackson's feet?

"Change is inevitable. Growth is optional." - DRWolf (after John C. Maxwell)


MoreMorgoth
Bree

Sep 12, 8:57pm

Post #33 of 47 (617 views)
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laid at the feet of PJ [In reply to] Can't Post

Isn't that where all the bad things about the films are laid by purists? Sometimes I think they would have preferred 12 hours of simply film of each page of the book


CuriousG
Half-elven


Sep 12, 10:22pm

Post #34 of 47 (597 views)
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Well, now that you mention it... // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


balbo biggins
Rohan


Sep 12, 10:24pm

Post #35 of 47 (598 views)
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Not true [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Isn't that where all the bad things about the films are laid by purists? Sometimes I think they would have preferred 12 hours of simply film of each page of the book


Thats simply Not true....

I would have preffered at least 30 hours to film each page and every moment from the book (6 'books', 6 films plus spin offs from the appendices and maybe the prologue and concerning hobbits)TongueTongueTongue

Im deadly serious


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 12, 11:07pm

Post #36 of 47 (592 views)
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Frankly, I wouldn't know about that. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
laid at the feet of PJ
Isn't that where all the bad things about the films are laid by purists? Sometimes I think they would have preferred 12 hours of simply film of each page of the book


I'm hardly a strict book-purist, though not all of Jackson's shortcuts, alterations and additions work for me--especially in the Hobbit films. I recognize both the necessity to accommodate the needs of cinema in adaptations to film and the right of filmmakers to put their own stamp on their works. Admittedly, I don't have to always like it.

"Change is inevitable. Growth is optional." - DRWolf (after John C. Maxwell)

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 12, 11:08pm)


Chen G.
Rohan

Sep 13, 9:59am

Post #37 of 47 (531 views)
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How could it? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
What was so bad about Weaving's Elrond that can be traced to the actor himself? I can understand how you might have been dissatisfied by how Elrond was characterized, but can't we lay that at Peter Jackson's feet?


No performance can be traced to the actor himself. Any performance in a film is as much the director's as it is the actor's. Its the director's job to help the actor "pull out" the performance.

I frankly don't see an issue. It seems people want Elrond to be at peace with his adopted son wanting to drive an eternal wedge between him and his daughter. I mean, look at Thingol.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 13, 1:45pm

Post #38 of 47 (510 views)
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I wouldn't go that far. [In reply to] Can't Post


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No performance can be traced to the actor himself. Any performance in a film is as much the director's as it is the actor's. Its the director's job to help the actor "pull out" the performance.


Well, you say yourself that both the director and the actor can be held accountable for either a good or bad performance. On the other hand, an actor can give the director exactly what is asked for, but the performance might be unsatisfactory for other reasons.


In Reply To
I frankly don't see an issue. It seems people want Elrond to be at peace with his adopted son wanting to drive an eternal wedge between him and his daughter. I mean, look at Thingol.


Elrond, in the book at least, could seem conflicted. He might think of Aragorn almost as a son. At the same time, if Arwen weds the Ranger, Elrond will lose her in a way that is unnatural for the Eldar.

"Change is inevitable. Growth is optional." - DRWolf (after John C. Maxwell)

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 13, 1:46pm)


Solicitr
Rohan

Sep 13, 3:03pm

Post #39 of 47 (496 views)
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And yet [In reply to] Can't Post

Elrond was more directly aware than any of the Choice of Luthien, and its figuring as a matter of High Doom. Hence his 'bride-price;'


Quote
A great doom awaits you, either to rise above the height of all your fathers since the days of Elendil, or to fall into darkness with all that is left of your kin. Many years of trial lie before you. You shall neither have wife, nor bind any woman to you in troth, until your time comes and you are found worthy of it....Maybe, it has been appointed so, that by my loss the kingship of Men may be restored. Therefore, though I love you, I say to you: Arwen Undómiel shall not diminish her life's grace for less cause. She shall not be the bride of any Man less than the King of both Gondor and Arnor.


Of course, the Arwen matter hasd nothing to do with movie-Elrond's scorn for Men generally.


(This post was edited by Solicitr on Sep 13, 3:05pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 13, 4:22pm

Post #40 of 47 (482 views)
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At least... [In reply to] Can't Post

...a part of Elrond actually wanted Aragorn to succeed, unlike Thingol who deliberately challenged Beren with what he thought was an impossible task.

"Change is inevitable. Growth is optional." - DRWolf (after John C. Maxwell)


Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Rohan


Sep 13, 8:21pm

Post #41 of 47 (442 views)
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What was wrong with Weaving? [In reply to] Can't Post

He's a very talented actor, at least in my opinion. He didn't have a lot to do in the films, but he achieved what the script laid out for his character. Was there anything inherently wrong with Weaving that is attributable to him, and not the script?
He just has such amazing eyebrows, I can't imagine not liking him. Laugh

"It is my duty to fight" - Mulan


Solicitr
Rohan

Sep 13, 9:48pm

Post #42 of 47 (430 views)
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Weaving was fine [In reply to] Can't Post

Given what the script gave him.

I actually thought that given the script and what PJ wanted, almost all the acting in LR was very good. There were certain poor casting decisions (Elijah Wood and John Noble, while perfectly serviceable actors, were wrong for those roles) and one failure of the production department (Brad Dourif's makeup job, together with PJ's direction, made him Obvious Bad Guy At First Glance, not a successful mole who had passed as a loyal counsellor for years).


2ndBreffest
Lorien


Sep 15, 6:01pm

Post #43 of 47 (369 views)
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yes... [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree. Anyone with even an ounce of purist in them is going to be sorely disappointed if they are hoping for this to feel even remotely like an authentic Tolkien product.


Fleuz
Lorien


Sep 16, 8:05am

Post #44 of 47 (295 views)
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Well... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Isn't that where all the bad things about the films are laid by purists? Sometimes I think they would have preferred 12 hours of simply film of each page of the book

Ich think nowadays a concept of one or two seasons Hobbit and three or four seasons LOTR as a series would have been awesome. Including "Conspiracy Unmasked" ; Tom Bombadil and the cleansing of the Shire.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 16, 2:29pm

Post #45 of 47 (233 views)
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Tom Bombadil in adaptations [In reply to] Can't Post


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Ich think nowadays a concept of one or two seasons Hobbit and three or four seasons LOTR as a series would have been awesome. Including "Conspiracy Unmasked" ; Tom Bombadil and the cleansing of the Shire.


Hmmm. Outside of audiobooks, the only adaptation of The Lord of the Rings that come to mind that didn't cut out Tom Bombadil and Goldberry would be the radio play produced by The Mind's Eye that was broadcast on NPR. This also included "The Scouring of the Shire".

Would "The Scouring..." have been included in Ralph Bakshi's adaptation if he had been able to complete the second half?

"Change is inevitable. Growth is optional." - DRWolf (after John C. Maxwell)

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 16, 2:30pm)


skyofcoffeebeans
Rivendell

Sep 16, 3:43pm

Post #46 of 47 (224 views)
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Hmmm [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it's more likely that we'd see the Scouring than Faramir in Bakshi's film. I imagine we'd swiftly get from Saruman (if we see him at all) to Minas Tirith to the Siege and the Battle of Pelennor Fields, briefly intercut with Minas Morgul and the Shelob's Lair interludes with Frodo and Sam. The way he ends things with Frodo and Sam in Film 1, there's very little reason for the Black Gate or Faramir when it ends much the same way as PJ's TTT did, with a tease of Shelob and entry into Mordor.

Even then, though, it's difficult to see how he'd have room for the Scouring in a 2 1/2 hour film. But something tells me he'd almost just manage it, given how haphazard the second half of Film 1 is paced.

But I'm in line with Fleuz. The end game for this show, either later in its run or a spinoff entirely, has to be a ten episode per season per book adaptation of the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings.


(This post was edited by skyofcoffeebeans on Sep 16, 3:45pm)


skyofcoffeebeans
Rivendell

Sep 16, 4:01pm

Post #47 of 47 (219 views)
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More detailed breakdown [In reply to] Can't Post

I could see a rough outline of Bakshi's TTT and ROTK breaking down like this, eliminating Faramir and as in the first film, largely eliminating Eomer (and of course no time for Imrahil):

1. Prologue recapping first film (3)
2. Frodo and Sam at Minas Morgul (4)
3. Confrontation with Saruman, Pippin sees into palantir as soon as it is thrown to him; flight to Gondor (5)
4. Climbing stairs (3)
5. Arrival at Gondor, discussion with Denethor the siege is imminent; Pippin sees lights from Denethor’s tower (6)
6. Theoden, Eowyn, and Aragorn at Dunharrow; Aragorn takes the paths of the dead; Eowyn dejected (5)
7. Shelob’s lair (6)
8. Attack on Gondor (6)
9. Choices of Master Samwise (6)
10. Denethor readies to kill himself; Pippin looks for Gandalf (4)
11. Ride of the Rohirrim; Merry with Dernhelm (4)
12. Death of Denethor, reveal of the corrupting palantir (6 min)
13. Battle of the Pelennor Fields; slaying of Theoden; slaying of the Witch King; death of Theoden; reveal of Eowyn; arrival of Aragorn (9)
14. Tower of Cirith Ungol (6)
15. Houses of Healing (4)
16. Last Debate; march to Mordor (3)
17. Captured by orcs (3)
18. Aragorn dismisses faint-hearted; arrival at gates (3)
19. Free from orcs, moving south (2)
20. Parlay with Mouth (3)
21. Final Battle; downfall of Sauron; death of Gollum (10)
22. Field of Cormallen; coronation of the King; return home (5)
23. Arrest at Frogmorton (3)
24. Rousing of the Shire-folk at Bywater (3)
25. Battle of Bywater (3)
26. Passing of Saruman (5)
27. Grey Havens (10)

Total: 130 min

I could also see a version much more in line with Pete's theatrical ROTK structure, eliminating the first confrontation with Saruman and any mention of him and eliminating the Scouring entirely, but in a much more brisk 130 mins instead of 190 mins.


(This post was edited by skyofcoffeebeans on Sep 16, 4:01pm)

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