Our Sponsor Sideshow Collectibles Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien
Do you enjoy the 100% volunteer, not for profit services of TheOneRing.net?
Consider a donation!

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Middle-earth TV Series Discussion:
Elros' ears and other problems
First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 Next page Last page  View All

Hasuwandil
Rivendell


Sep 8, 4:34am

Post #1 of 76 (1578 views)
Shortcut
Elros' ears and other problems Can't Post

In addition to the problem of coming up with new material that seems congruous with the material Tolkien has already written, another problem facing the writers is how to tie up loose ends left by Tolkien. One that I've already noted is the date of the Númenóreans' arrival to relieve the Elvish forces during the War of the Elves and Sauron. This is said to have happened in 1700, and the fleet was said to have been sent by King Tar-Minastir. However, it is also said that his predecessor, Queen Tar-Telperiën, was an isolationist who refused to give up the Sceptre until her death in 1731. So, assuming the writers tell this story, either Tar-Telperiën has to die earlier, or the war has to end (and perhaps begin) later, or Minastir has to obtain permission from Queen Tar-Telperiën to send the fleet, or he has to send it without her permission, and possibly without her knowledge.

Another issue is Elros' ears. Of course, this isn't a problem if we insist that Tolkien's Elves (and the Half-Elven) don't have pointed ears. I'd rather not get too deep into that discussion here. Whatever Tolkien's intention may have been, I would say most people think of Elves as having pointed ears, and Tolkien's Elves, when depicted in a visual medium, are typically depicted with pointed ears, probably in part because it helps distinguish them from Men. Also, it appears Amazon wants to follow in Peter Jackson's footsteps, visually, at least. So, if Amazon wants to depict Elros, they need to decide whether to depict him as having pointed ears or not. Given that he's Half-Elven, and Elrond's identical twin, it makes sense that he would have pointed ears. But he also chose to be a Man. So do his ears lose their pointiness when he becomes a mortal Man, or do they retain their pointiness, but the trait disappears as his descendants intermarry with other Men, who presumably do not have pointy ears? The latter makes the most sense to me.

What other problems has Tolkien left for Amazon's creative team to tackle?

Hêlâ Aurwandil, angilô berhtost,
oƀar Middangard mannum gisandid!


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 8, 6:37am

Post #2 of 76 (1420 views)
Shortcut
Challenges [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
In addition to the problem of coming up with new material that seems congruous with the material Tolkien has already written, another problem facing the writers is how to tie up loose ends left by Tolkien. One that I've already noted is the date of the Númenóreans' arrival to relieve the Elvish forces during the War of the Elves and Sauron. This is said to have happened in 1700, and the fleet was said to have been sent by King Tar-Minastir. However, it is also said that his predecessor, Queen Tar-Telperiën, was an isolationist who refused to give up the Sceptre until her death in 1731. So, assuming the writers tell this story, either Tar-Telperiën has to die earlier, or the war has to end (and perhaps begin) later, or Minastir has to obtain permission from Queen Tar-Telperiën to send the fleet, or he has to send it without her permission, and possibly without her knowledge.


This need not be seen as an inconsistency. In fact, you've already suggested the most logical solution: Minastir convinces his aunt Queen Tar-Telperiën that it is in the best interests of Númenor to come to the aid of the Elves of Lindon. I think it would raise too many hackles if he sailed a force to Middle-earth against the queen's wishes or without her knowledge. I also don't see any need to alter the timeline.


In Reply To
Another issue is Elros' ears. Of course, this isn't a problem if we insist that Tolkien's Elves (and the Half-Elven) don't have pointed ears. I'd rather not get too deep into that discussion here. Whatever Tolkien's intention may have been, I would say most people think of Elves as having pointed ears, and Tolkien's Elves, when depicted in a visual medium, are typically depicted with pointed ears, probably in part because it helps distinguish them from Men. Also, it appears Amazon wants to follow in Peter Jackson's footsteps, visually, at least. So, if Amazon wants to depict Elros, they need to decide whether to depict him as having pointed ears or not. Given that he's Half-Elven, and Elrond's identical twin, it makes sense that he would have pointed ears. But he also chose to be a Man. So do his ears lose their pointiness when he becomes a mortal Man, or do they retain their pointiness, but the trait disappears as his descendants intermarry with other Men, who presumably do not have pointy ears? The latter makes the most sense to me.

What other problems has Tolkien left for Amazon's creative team to tackle?


I don't think that Elros' physical appearance would have altered when he gained mortality. The trait of pointed ears might have been lost, though, in succeeding generations. I can't think of any other major issues that haven't already been brought up in previous discussions.

"Change is inevitable. Growth is optional." - DRWolf (after John C. Maxwell)

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 8, 6:37am)


fantasywind
The Shire

Sep 8, 7:33am

Post #3 of 76 (1410 views)
Shortcut
Lore 'disrepancies' and adaptation [In reply to] Can't Post

It all depends on which events they would want to focus, but in my opinion, it would be possible to make quite faithful adaptation on Tolkien material and yet avoid various pitfalls in form of conflicting versions. One primary example, the UT section dealing with origin of Elessar, the green jewel, there are various versions of it's origin conflicting with each other and one contains a memorable conversation of Galadriel and Celebrimbor (in general History of Celeborn and Galadriel contains conflicting verisons, but First Age stuff is already off-limits so the events before would not need to be addressed much), the conversation of those two is a wonderful piece of Tolkien written dialogue, and in a show which bases on text with not nearly enough dialogue for such a show, they would do better to use this properly. It's also beneficial from storytelling perspective. That conversation is also the one reference in which it's said that Celebrimbor was in unrequitted love with Galadriel (who was already married to Celeborn and had a daughter). Elessar the stone is less important, as it never appeared in movies before in any case (while Lotr book has it even if unexplained origin). It would be better for dramatic purposes, adding some emotional conflict in the show with Celebrimbor of sorts.

Other things such as Amdir also being called Malgalad in another text and Amdir said to be father of Amroth (while in some version he was supposed to be son of Celeborn and Galadriel) could also be easily resolved, either choosing one over other name or using both. Also Amroth connection to Galadriel could be explained, as being a friend who visited Eregion (Galadriel is said to have taken interest in Lorinand realm, and later travelled there through Moria with her daughter and Amroth as Unfinished Tales tell us, Celeborn stayed behind).

The Tar-Minastir and Tar-Telperien situation could be actually very well devised as you said, show the Minastir convincing the queen to intervene (as Minastir is all credited for it) and show this through fleshing out/inventing a scene in which in the court of Numenor messanger of Gil-galad arrives (as UT say, he send messages to Numenor for help when Sauron invaded, Elrond and Celeborn were fighting losing battle against Sauron's troops), and political debate happens after all Minastir as heir would sit in the Council of Sceptre) then have use of the character, admiral Ciryatur (the one who commanded the navy send to Middle-earth to help in the war) to be interacting with various elven characters throughout the war. Great battle of Gwathlo in which numenorean expedition succeeds in defeating Sauron would be highly cinematic moment, a massive War of the Elves and Sauron in overall would be amazing to put on screen, and UT give proper account of the events, down to the movements of troops and tactical decisions. Elrond and Celeborn and Gil-galad take very active part in it so it would beg to focus on them in the show over that course of events.

Of course in the end it all, again comes down to specific texts they will be able to use (it would seem that UT is largely responsible for the existence of the last map Amazon posted, Numenor map and the information on forests of the Enedwaith and Minhiriath are all there which indicates licensing rights allow for that), rest of the material is rather straightforward. The 'original inventions' are of course the problem then, which things will fit, but I guess Tolkien Estate veto right and presence of Shippey could alleviate such problems. I'm hoping they won't start suddenly making an awful lot of changes like PJ did to Hobbit, those went way too far for me.

Some things, as I said, would be based on canon but would have to be 'fleshed out' meaning Amazon writers would have to add detail to it (and for example that would be depicting Aldarion's meeting with Galadriel and Celeborn, mentioned in Mariner's Wife, that is if they will adapt this narrative at all, which I would beg them to do actually, it's the fullest narrative they can hope for, full of characters, character archs and dialogues all set out by Tolkien, we don't know what they talked about in this meeting, we only know that Aldarion went up river Gwathlo and somewhere near Tharbad had a meeting with them, as they lived in Eregion close by, here Amazon team would invent the dialogue from scratch).

Elros as a whole is for storytelling purposes less suitable character to appear for extended period of time, as Elros basically did nothing of note once he became king. I would say, again, that the best approach would be to adapt Mariner's Wife and in the same time show things happening around in Eregion, long before Sauron arrives there in fair form, showing the set-up so to speak, the family drama in Numenor could go on with focus on Aldarion, and through him showing events in Middle-earth, his contacts with Gil-galad, building first outpost the Vinyalonde, meeting with Galadriel and Celeborn when he sailed up river Gwathlo, (Aldarion's daughter Ancalime was alive and was queen during the time when Sauron personally arrived in Eregion in the years 1200 SA) the next thing would be Sauron's stay at Eregion, teaching the Elves how to forge rings, with Galadriel and Celeborn, and Gil-galad highly suspicious about this nice cool fellow Annatar, this would be heavily focused on Celebrimbor story arch and then it would lead to war (in Numenor several new generations would pass, Tar-Telperien the queen, Minastir as young prince, admiral Ciryatur, when war erupts as Sauron invades Eriador, Celebrimbor is killed, Elrond and Celeborn fight his troops as related in UT sections, Gil-galad sends messages for help to Numenor), events such as founding of Numenor could be sort of told as a tale, passed down among generations, some background to give context for the story at hand.

I guess there could be some sort of prologue kind of thing like the one Galadriel does in Fellowship movie, a very brief explanation for what is Numenor, how this civilization came to be and it's connection to other things, a proper context for the 'why's and how's' of Second Age. Elros is quite historically important, even if the character itself would not suit well for the drama show as he was basically living in peace and prosperity after he became appointed king of Numenor, he is important not only because all kings of Numenor are from his line of descendants, but also because of the influence of his actions, he is the founder of Armenelos and 'citadel of Elros' (which is basically a key location not unlike Red Keep from Game of Thrones, the main seat of power for Numenor, we will probably see this citadel a lot).

Elros and his father Earendil, who is almost a 'messianic' figure of Middle-earth would be historical context for later events. Kings of Numenor prided themselves for being 'Earendil's heir'. About Earendil we hear back in Lotr (even the movies) with reference to Earendil star being most beloved by the Elves, so the cultural impact of this character in-universe is enormous and Elrond Half-elven is also son of Earendil. Some explanation on who he was (and so also his son Elros), a legendary hero in it's own setting would be nice, especially if the events leading to Downfall of Numenor will be shown with Amandil trying to do what Earendil did those thousands of years ago.


Solicitr
Rohan

Sep 9, 6:25pm

Post #4 of 76 (1206 views)
Shortcut
Who [In reply to] Can't Post

says Elrond and Elros were identical twins? Not Tolkien.


Hasuwandil
Rivendell


Sep 10, 2:52am

Post #5 of 76 (1160 views)
Shortcut
Fraternal twins [In reply to] Can't Post

I suppose it's possible Elrond and Elros were fraternal twins. If so, they should still have a family resemblance, but I suppose it's possible pointed ears may be a trait such as attached vs. detached earlobes, in which case it would be possible for Elrond to have pointed ears and for Elros not to have them. But then, one would expect pointed ears to appear among descendants of Elros from time to time. That said, I would expect Amazon to depict Elrond and Elros as identical twins, assuming they do decide to depict Elros, as I imagine it's cheaper to cast one actor to play both roles.

Hêlâ Aurwandil, angilô berhtost,
oƀar Middangard mannum gisandid!


Hasuwandil
Rivendell


Sep 10, 2:54am

Post #6 of 76 (1163 views)
Shortcut
Additional problems [In reply to] Can't Post

Another problem that has occurred to me: Did Sauron take the Ring with him to Númenor, or did he leave it behind when he was captured? Could he trust any of the Nazgûl to take care of his Ring for him while he was gone? If he took it with him, was Ar-Pharazôn aware of the Ring and its importance? Wouldn't he try to take the Ring away as one of the spoils of war? And even if Sauron did manage to keep the Ring a secret from the king, what happened to it (and his body) when Númenor was sunk? You'd think it would be harder to fish the Ring out of the ocean than out of the Anduin.

I have also thought of yet another problem, but it's probably more of a problem for Tolkien than for Amazon's creative team. Tolkien created the language Khuzdul for the Dwarves in his legendarium, but in The Hobbit, which was originally not part of his legendarium, Tolkien gave his Dwarves names in Old Norse, taken from the Dvergatal in the Völuspá. He also used English-sounding surnames for the few Hobbits in the story, and also used several other names or terms taken from Old English or Old Norse (e.g. Beorn, Warg, Mirkwood, Arkenstone). When he wrote Lord of the Rings, Tolkien used a number of modern English and Middle English names for additional Hobbit characters and placenames, as well as some Continental Germanic (particularly Frankish) names, such as Pippin and Fredegar, and a few Celtic names, such as Meriadoc and Bree, probably representing a Dunlending influence. He also used Old English for the names of the Éothéod from Frumgar on, Gothic for their ancestors, the Kings of Rhovanion, and an intermediate language for several progenitors of the Éothéod. In addition, he used Old English for the names of Gollum's folk, who lived in the Vales of Anduin, as did the Éothéod and Beorn. Finally, the Common Speech is generally represented by modern English. By this means Tolkien used real-world languages to represent many of the languages of the Third Age. And being familiar with those languages, it no doubt saved him much time from having to come up with many names and expressions in Khuzdul, Westron, Rohirric (not Old English), and the Hobbit's language.

However, there is one issue: In the real world, Old Norse is attested relatively late compared to some other Germanic languages. Gothic is the oldest Germanic language for which we have any substantial body of literature, and Tolkien's Kings of Rhovanion, whose names are Gothic, flourished in the 13th century of the Third Age. Dwarf names are in Khuzdul, but Dwarves kept their names and their language largely to themselves, and used names taken from the cultures among which they resided. We know of few Dwarves from the Second Age, but their names, Durin II, Durin III, Durin IV, Durin V, and Narvi, are all Old Norse. Thus we have Old Norse names existing throughout the Second Age (and well before: Durin I flourished during the Years of the Trees), well before the Gothic names of the Kings of Rhovanion appear towards the middle of the Third Age. Of course, this problem is mostly academic, and Amazon doesn't really need to address it. However, there is one practical issue: If they want to continue to take names from the Dvergatal, there is a limited number of names, and Tolkien has already used most of the best ones.

Hêlâ Aurwandil, angilô berhtost,
oƀar Middangard mannum gisandid!


Solicitr
Rohan

Sep 10, 3:30am

Post #7 of 76 (1156 views)
Shortcut
Well, [In reply to] Can't Post

the external explanation is simply that Tolkien at the time had no reason to think it would become a problem.. When he filched his Hobbit dwarf-names from Voluspa, he didn't care about continuity with The Silmarillion (note that First Age dwarf-names are not Norse, other than Durin who isn't actually named in the Silmarillion); and when he wrote the Moria chapters and sketched the west-gate his chronology hadn't yet expanded into anything like the vast span of years he would wind up with.

I wouldn't get especially worked up about chronology, especially since, while names like Durinn and Narfi certainly aren't attested that early, they could phonetically easily fit into Proto-Norse (which is attested, in Elder Futhark fragments, at least as early as Gothic and perhaps earlier). He was more concerned with the various Germanic languages' relative closeness to English (although I suspect he overestimated the average reader's capacity to find Anglo-Saxon "familiar"!)


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Sep 10, 4:43am

Post #8 of 76 (1156 views)
Shortcut
Tolkien says that Sauron had the One Ring when Numenor was destroyed [In reply to] Can't Post

In Letter 211, he states, "Sauron was first defeated by a ‘miracle’: a direct action of God the Creator, changing the fashion of the world, when appealed to by Manwë: see III p. 317. Though reduced to ‘a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind’, I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended." Presumably, if Sauron's spirit carried off the One Ring when his body was destroyed in the drowning of Numenor, he had in his possession when he was captured and brought to Numenor.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Dunadan of North Arnor
Bree

Sep 10, 12:01pm

Post #9 of 76 (1116 views)
Shortcut
Does that make it gospel? :) [In reply to] Can't Post

O Faithful One,

Letter #211 (Oct 14 1958, to Rhona Beare, God rest her beautiful soul) was written under significant duress after a 2-week academic stint in Ireland in which he writes “I was involved in an alarming tempest at sea, and began to think I should suffer the fate of Lycidas King. I arrived 5 hours overdue in Dublin, rather battered; and… crossed [Ireland] about 6 times, read 130 lbs of theses, assisted in the exams of 4 colleges, and finally presided at fellowship-vivas in Dublin before re-embarking (doubled up with lumbago)”.

All the while he is stressfully responding to 2 letters sent to him in Cork regarding specific parameters of the presentation of the ‘Ancrene Wisse’, in which correspondent Robert Burchfield feels the need to apologize for troubling him; to which Tolkien of course responds (after his return), no trouble “to a friend after all, not a stranger; and if my pleasure in controversy led me into any intemperate expressions, forget them!”

Furthermore, writing to Burchfield, “My train broke down at Leamington, and I arrived home late to find it more or less in ruins. None of the time-schedules had been adhered to, and I came on a lot of unsupervised hobbits smoking in the garage, while the house had neither gas, water, cooking facilities or lavatories. Into this chaos my wife arrived two hours later. My whole attention is for the moment concentrated on ‘domestic affairs’; I have exhausted my vocabulary, and nearly fused the telephone-wires… [I’m] very tired, and my domestic affairs are in chaos”.

To this scenario, he gets a letter from the great, and overly-inquisitive, Rhona Beare (for an upcoming meeting), about that which he has definitely found Ireland a welcome escape - LOTR! For those that have ‘Letters’ you need only read the first paragraph of #211 to gather what I’ve already stated, but take particular note of this second paragraph: “In a momentary lull I will try and answer your questions briefly. I do not ‘know all the answers’. Much of my own book puzzles me; & in any case much of it was written so long ago (anything up to 20 years) that I read it now as if it were from a strange hand”.

Now please read that 2nd paragraph again.

The rest of the letter begins: “The use of O on II p.339 is an error. Mine in fact”. Goodness, Tolkien has erred. For the next question he admits another error: with Glorfindel’s horse, he states he used the term bridle-and-bit “casually and carelessly”, and “I will change ‘bridle and bit’ to ‘headstall’. 0 for 2. Bypassing for now Rhona’s floating Ring question, she then asks about the colours of the ‘other’ wizards, in which he claims no knowledge. But he had in fact already written about the Ithryn Luin (‘The Istari’ - UT). 0 for 3 (actually 4), then he draws the ridiculously large and conical representation of Gondor’s crown.

Which brings us back to his plea that we “need not boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring”. Need not boggle? Seriously? Boggling is what we do as Tolkien fans. It’s what he did all his life. He boggled at the lunar phases, the movements of the Nazgul, multiple versions of his stories, not to mention his languages! Need not boggle? Yes we boggle. Rhona Beare boggled. She was the master boggler, and put forth the questions that Tolkien was so hard-pressed to answer. And no, there’s no way Sauron had the Ring in Numenor. When his spirit drifted back to Middle-earth, “he took up again the great Ring and clothed himself in power" [‘Of the Rings of Power’]. Note, "again"!

The One Ring and the Foundations of Barad-dur were completed at the same time, with the same sorcery, and is where he kept it safe. He knew Numenor was a suicide mission. If his spirit was able to carry the Ring across the Sea from Numenor, it destroys the entire premise of the Third Age and the LOTR.

Please Amazon, pay no heed to Letter #211, and don’t bring the Ring to Numenor. Tolkien was exhausted, distracted, and probably hungover, responding to Rhona’s penetrating inquisition. As he said to Burchfield, about his ‘intemperate expressions’, “Forget them!”


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Sep 10, 2:24pm

Post #10 of 76 (1088 views)
Shortcut
You're wrong! [In reply to] Can't Post

Actually, you probably are right, but I just wanted to see if you are paying attention.

Boggling yours,
VtF

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Solicitr
Rohan

Sep 10, 4:20pm

Post #11 of 76 (1072 views)
Shortcut
Tolkien [In reply to] Can't Post

did nod, frequently, and I suspect you are right; but I'm not sure I would put quite so much weight on the word "again." It could be read as Sauron being once again able to wear the Ring once he had fashioned himself a new and dreadful physical body, his old one having been destroyed.

Would he have left his Soul Jar lying around, even in a treasury, for an ambitious Nazgul to take up? And would he have had the force of will and powers of persuasion necessary to gull the King of Men- the strongest-willed of them all - without the Ring's aid?


squire
Half-elven


Sep 11, 1:03am

Post #12 of 76 (1014 views)
Shortcut
Sauron corrupted Numenor before the Ring existed, so... [In reply to] Can't Post

... the question of the Ring in Numenor is a classic retcon.

The fall of Numenor dates, as a myth in Tolkien's story-hoard, to the late 1930s, well before he'd ever thought of the Hobbit's invisibility ring as being the supreme power totem it eventually became. So Sauron in Numenor originally had no Ring, nor needed it, being after all Sauron, the master corrupter second only to the late Morgoth.

Skip ahead ten or so years. Lord of the Rings has been written, Bilbo's ring is now THE RING OF POWER, and the Numenor myth has been fully incorporated into a roughed-in 'Second Age' between the Silmarillion and the LotR. Sauron now has the Ring, willy-nilly.

Would he, in fact, have left it behind in Barad-dur when essaying the greatest corruption ever? As Tolkien worried it out, pace Dunadan N.A.'s account of emotional distress combined with sea-sickness, he concluded that it seemed more likely than not that Sauron must have brought the Ring with him.

And so the small, small problem of the Ring flying back to Mordor with him when he had been destroyed bodily. "One need not boggle", indeed! Of course we boggle. But Tolkien dug himself into this pit and was perfectly capable of digging himself out with a mere 'Let it be so.'

He's the author; it's his candy store; and notice he says in his letters that he doesn't even need to claim full responsibility for consistency and sense, because after all it had been a long time since he wrote this and that.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


Hasuwandil
Rivendell


Sep 11, 5:31am

Post #13 of 76 (983 views)
Shortcut
Dwarf names [In reply to] Can't Post

It's been a while since I last read The Silmarillion, so I don't recall what any Dwarves were named.

A potential solution has occurred to me. The names "Durin" and "Narvi" are not necessarily the forms of the names they actually used during the Second Age, but rather the forms the names had at the time they were written down sometime in the latter Third Age or early Fourth Age, which is why they are identical to the forms the Dwarves were then using. The forms used in the Second Age would presumably have been in whatever language the people of Rhovanion were then using. Given that he'd already used Gothic for the Third Age, perhaps Tolkien would have used proto-Indo-European to represent the language of the Northmen in the Second Age.

Hêlâ Aurwandil, angilô berhtost,
oƀar Middangard mannum gisandid!


Dunadan of North Arnor
Bree

Sep 11, 12:25pm

Post #14 of 76 (972 views)
Shortcut
Oh I sometimes pay attention :) [In reply to] Can't Post

And greetings, I’ll post further on the topic this weekend, as squire and the Cloudy One raise some good points that I can’t resist responding to. One thing for all to consider in the meantime: The Rings were, for the most part, not ‘worn’ (with the exception of the Three for the 3rd Age). Sauron kept the Nine (and 3 of the Seven) locked away for a long time after taking them back from the Nazgûl, and once they were corrupted, there is little indication they were anything but loyal servants, to a fault, to Sauron.


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Sep 11, 1:53pm

Post #15 of 76 (955 views)
Shortcut
The Cloudy One! [In reply to] Can't Post

You're a funny guy!

I look forward to reading your further thoughts.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Rohan


Sep 11, 2:22pm

Post #16 of 76 (952 views)
Shortcut
I agree with this [In reply to] Can't Post

I personally believe the Ring was in Numenor with Sauron, and that it should be depicted as such in the Amazon series. It will allow us a chance to finally see how the incorporeal spirit of Sauron was able to carry the Ring with him back to Mordor - hopefully, Amazon's explanation boggles the mind as well.

"It is my duty to fight" - Mulan


Solicitr
Rohan

Sep 11, 2:33pm

Post #17 of 76 (944 views)
Shortcut
Except [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
It's been a while since I last read The Silmarillion, so I don't recall what any Dwarves were named.

A potential solution has occurred to me. The names "Durin" and "Narvi" are not necessarily the forms of the names they actually used during the Second Age, but rather the forms the names had at the time they were written down sometime in the latter Third Age or early Fourth Age, which is why they are identical to the forms the Dwarves were then using. The forms used in the Second Age would presumably have been in whatever language the people of Rhovanion were then using. Given that he'd already used Gothic for the Third Age, perhaps Tolkien would have used proto-Indo-European to represent the language of the Northmen in the Second Age.


"Durin" and "Narvi" were written right there on the Gate by Celebrimbor in the Second Age. Tolkien even gives us the Tengwar/Sindarin "original," so it isn't just Gandalf's translation.

The reality of course is quandoque bonus dormitat Homerus. "Moria" inscribed on the gate, thousands of years before the Balrog? Facsimiles of Balin's tomb and the book of Mazarbul with Angerthas and Tengwar used for English?


(This post was edited by Solicitr on Sep 11, 2:39pm)


fantasywind
The Shire

Sep 11, 4:36pm

Post #18 of 76 (935 views)
Shortcut
Ring in Numenor [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
O Faithful One,
Letter #211 (Oct 14 1958, to Rhona Beare, God rest her beautiful soul) was written under significant duress after a 2-week academic stint in Ireland in which he writes “I was involved in an alarming tempest at sea, and began to think I should suffer the fate of Lycidas King. I arrived 5 hours overdue in Dublin, rather battered; and… crossed [Ireland] about 6 times, read 130 lbs of theses, assisted in the exams of 4 colleges, and finally presided at fellowship-vivas in Dublin before re-embarking (doubled up with lumbago)”.
All the while he is stressfully responding to 2 letters sent to him in Cork regarding specific parameters of the presentation of the ‘Ancrene Wisse’, in which correspondent Robert Burchfield feels the need to apologize for troubling him; to which Tolkien of course responds (after his return), no trouble “to a friend after all, not a stranger; and if my pleasure in controversy led me into any intemperate expressions, forget them!”
Furthermore, writing to Burchfield, “My train broke down at Leamington, and I arrived home late to find it more or less in ruins. None of the time-schedules had been adhered to, and I came on a lot of unsupervised hobbits smoking in the garage, while the house had neither gas, water, cooking facilities or lavatories. Into this chaos my wife arrived two hours later. My whole attention is for the moment concentrated on ‘domestic affairs’; I have exhausted my vocabulary, and nearly fused the telephone-wires… [I’m] very tired, and my domestic affairs are in chaos”.
To this scenario, he gets a letter from the great, and overly-inquisitive, Rhona Beare (for an upcoming meeting), about that which he has definitely found Ireland a welcome escape - LOTR! For those that have ‘Letters’ you need only read the first paragraph of #211 to gather what I’ve already stated, but take particular note of this second paragraph: “In a momentary lull I will try and answer your questions briefly. I do not ‘know all the answers’. Much of my own book puzzles me; & in any case much of it was written so long ago (anything up to 20 years) that I read it now as if it were from a strange hand”.
Now please read that 2nd paragraph again.
The rest of the letter begins: “The use of O on II p.339 is an error. Mine in fact”. Goodness, Tolkien has erred. For the next question he admits another error: with Glorfindel’s horse, he states he used the term bridle-and-bit “casually and carelessly”, and “I will change ‘bridle and bit’ to ‘headstall’. 0 for 2. Bypassing for now Rhona’s floating Ring question, she then asks about the colours of the ‘other’ wizards, in which he claims no knowledge. But he had in fact already written about the Ithryn Luin (‘The Istari’ - UT). 0 for 3 (actually 4), then he draws the ridiculously large and conical representation of Gondor’s crown.
Which brings us back to his plea that we “need not boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring”. Need not boggle? Seriously? Boggling is what we do as Tolkien fans. It’s what he did all his life. He boggled at the lunar phases, the movements of the Nazgul, multiple versions of his stories, not to mention his languages! Need not boggle? Yes we boggle. Rhona Beare boggled. She was the master boggler, and put forth the questions that Tolkien was so hard-pressed to answer. And no, there’s no way Sauron had the Ring in Numenor. When his spirit drifted back to Middle-earth, “he took up again the great Ring and clothed himself in power" [‘Of the Rings of Power’]. Note, "again"!
The One Ring and the Foundations of Barad-dur were completed at the same time, with the same sorcery, and is where he kept it safe. He knew Numenor was a suicide mission. If his spirit was able to carry the Ring across the Sea from Numenor, it destroys the entire premise of the Third Age and the LOTR.
Please Amazon, pay no heed to Letter #211, and don’t bring the Ring to Numenor. Tolkien was exhausted, distracted, and probably hungover, responding to Rhona’s penetrating inquisition. As he said to Burchfield, about his ‘intemperate expressions’, “Forget them!”


Truth be told that passage doesn't mean anything, that he took up the Ring again, is natural since he needed time to recover bodily form, he could only 'wear it' when he had body, it took some time before he reformed (about hundred years maybe) new shape allowed him to put the ring on again :). As for spirit carrying it, well and how do you imagine Ainur were building the world out of matter? With hands they didn't yet have, they assumed physical form for the first time already ON Arda, but before someone had to build that Arda :). It's true that Tolkien sometimes forgot his own writings and sometimes he left some things even to himself a mystery, and so on, but that doesn't mean that he had not general understanding or outlook of his own world :).

Power over matter of the Ainur would be useless if they could not work it being in immaterial spirit forms. Another thing is also that in Lotr Return of the King we clearly see Gandalf doing 'telekinetic' stuff :) :). Furthermore there is a deep connection between the Ring and it's master, as in another letter Tolkien writes: "even from afar he had an effect upon it, to make it work for its return to himself" so why it so farfetched to think his spirit could take it immediately from the place where his body was destroyed :).


fantasywind
The Shire

Sep 11, 4:42pm

Post #19 of 76 (925 views)
Shortcut
Dwarf old norse names [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
It's been a while since I last read The Silmarillion, so I don't recall what any Dwarves were named.
A potential solution has occurred to me. The names "Durin" and "Narvi" are not necessarily the forms of the names they actually used during the Second Age, but rather the forms the names had at the time they were written down sometime in the latter Third Age or early Fourth Age, which is why they are identical to the forms the Dwarves were then using. The forms used in the Second Age would presumably have been in whatever language the people of Rhovanion were then using. Given that he'd already used Gothic for the Third Age, perhaps Tolkien would have used proto-Indo-European to represent the language of the Northmen in the Second Age.


Well indeed texts within HoME, Peoples of Middle-earth, Of Dwarves and Men, seem to indicate that (in this essay tehre is some note which I can't bother to find right now, that Durin name meant 'king' in tongue of Northmen) it's a way for Tolkien to explain the incorporated elements from The Hobbit into larger legendarium.


Dunadan of North Arnor
Bree

Sep 13, 3:36pm

Post #20 of 76 (857 views)
Shortcut
So how does your well-put 2nd Age theory explain Sauron's relative 'impotence' in the 3rd Age? [In reply to] Can't Post

I’m referring to your thesis of a mighty Ainu, an incorporeal and telekinetic soul, able to do with the Ring as his disembodied spirit pleases; but is then unable to maintain or recover the Ring for 3000 years, and eventually is oblivious to a disparate band making its way with said Ring to his very land.

If you can convince me, without unreasonable contradiction or fan-fic, how Sauron & the Ring’s relationship differed so drastically between the 2nd Age & the 3rd, I’ll listen. But you can’t have it both ways.

And, more importantly perhaps, to bring this on topic to this particular Forum, I’m wondering how Amazon is going to successfully present, to a general movie-going audience of Jackson’s LOTR, that the Ring, cleaved as it was from Sauron in his prologue, separated for millennia, dramatically narrated by Galadriel, mandating the journey of the Novel of the Century, can be just casually floated across the Sea to land perfectly with Sauron’s omnipotence, innocently awaiting his ‘clothing’. They may say, what the hell is this ****? Just as the sparkplug Rhona Beare did 60 years ago!


(This post was edited by Dunadan of North Arnor on Sep 13, 3:51pm)


Solicitr
Rohan

Sep 13, 9:43pm

Post #21 of 76 (781 views)
Shortcut
Maybe [In reply to] Can't Post

He airmailed it ahead by Fellbeast

{ducks}


Dunadan of North Arnor
Bree

Sep 14, 12:33am

Post #22 of 76 (760 views)
Shortcut
That’s as good of an explanation as Letter 211 :) // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Dunadan of North Arnor
Bree

Sep 14, 1:20pm

Post #23 of 76 (708 views)
Shortcut
So was Ar-Pharazon supremely powerful, or a complete idiot? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
would he [Sauron] have had the force of will and powers of persuasion necessary to gull the King of Men- the strongest-willed of them all - without the Ring's aid?


But would Ar-Pharazon, the ‘strongest willed Man of them all’ as you put it, King of Numenor at its height of power, not have had, at the very least, operatives or an inner circle of military generals to search Sauron completely before he’s brought back to Numenor, not to mention any time thereafter? Would he also, in his position, have absolutely no knowledge of the history of the Rings, including the 3 Black Numenoreans corrupted as Ringwraiths?

Furthermore, did Sauron need the Ring to corrupt Numenor? As squire quite rightly points out, the original story of Numenor’s downfall was conceived before there even was a Ring. And in all the developments of the story, a large percentage of Numenoreans were on Sauron's side from the get-go.

Sauron was the most powerful Maia after all, Saruman, the corrupting wordsmith, was merely a lesser version. Like I’ve already said, you can't have it both ways. Ar-Pharazon was either too powerful, or a blissful idiot. Which one? I await the choice and detailed response. :)


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Sep 14, 3:17pm

Post #24 of 76 (696 views)
Shortcut
He was both [In reply to] Can't Post

As is so often the case.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Hasuwandil
Rivendell


Sep 14, 8:54pm

Post #25 of 76 (665 views)
Shortcut
Second vs. Third Age [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I’m referring to your thesis of a mighty Ainu, an incorporeal and telekinetic soul, able to do with the Ring as his disembodied spirit pleases; but is then unable to maintain or recover the Ring for 3000 years, and eventually is oblivious to a disparate band making its way with said Ring to his very land.

That's been troubling me too. If Sauron's disembodied spirit can take the Ring from Númenor back to Middle-earth, then why doesn't it just follow Isildur around and snatch the Ring back at an opportune moment, or fish it out of the Anduin after Isildur's death?

Even ignoring that, assuming that his spirit was "unconscious" or something for a while, it seems that Sauron would have realized that no one possessed the Ring after Isildur, and that he would have searched extensively for it around the place Isildur was killed. He had some 3000 years to find it. It would seem to explain why he took up residence on Dol Guldur. And the first time he occupied Dol Guldur, he was there for over a thousand years, all before Déagol found the Ring. Why didn't he find it himself?

Hêlâ Auriwandil, angilô berhtost,
oƀar Middangard mannum gisandid!

First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 Next page Last page  View All
 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.