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Nomad
Forum Admin
Sep 5 2019, 9:42pm
Post #1 of 11
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"Alas! There are some wounds that cannot be wholly cured." - Gandalf the White
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'Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!'
A cold voice answered: 'Come not between the Nazgûl and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye.'
A sword rang as it was drawn. 'Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may.'
'Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!'
Then Merry heard of all sounds in that hour the strangest. It seemed that Dernhelm laughed, and the clear voice was like the ring of steel. 'But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.'
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Peter Jackson - "I think we can trim it a bit."
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- WITCH-KING: "Feast on his flesh!"
- EOWYN: "I will kill you if you touch him!"
- WITCH-KING: "Do not come between the Nazgul and his prey!"
- WITCH KING: "No man can kill me . . . Die!"
- EOWYN: "I am no man!"
*stabby stabby*
*crush crush*
=============
A tear forms and rolls down Nomad's stainless steel face.
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Ettelewen
Rohan
Sep 5 2019, 10:59pm
Post #2 of 11
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The original would have been awesome on screen.
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I do think the film version lost considerable impact in translation. I imagine the writers thought the "old-fashioned" phraseology would be lost on modern viewers.
Well, I can always pull the book off the shelf... 
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Lissuin
Valinor
Sep 5 2019, 11:15pm
Post #3 of 11
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The written prose is deathless, as you have reminded us now,
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and is thrilling when read silently or aloud. But - each time I see that filmed scene with Eowyn, my favorite character in the books, I am also thrilled with the speaking of the simple yet strong and defiant words, "I am no man!" They both, the written and the spoken, capture my ideal of Eowyn's strength, each in their different ways.
The menace of the foul dwimmerlaik on film was in the perfect rendering of the undead king. His screen presence was altogether the terrible, foul monster of my own imagination when I first read the Professor's words, even without the full speech.
But - my main quibbles with PJ involve the development of Faramir. And yeah, I know their rationale, but nah, don't get me started!
And do, please, stop crying, Nomad. You can still rust, you know!
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grammaboodawg
Immortal
Sep 6 2019, 1:59am
Post #4 of 11
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So many goosebumps in Tolkien's words...
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... "Sam heard a bolt drawn back. Then he heard the hideous voice speaking again.
... 'You lie quiet, or you'll pay for it! You've not got long to live in peace… …but if you don't want the fun to begin right now, keep your trap shut, see? There's a reminder for you!' There was a sound like the crack of a whip.
... At that, rage blazed in Sam's heart to a sudden fury. He sprang up, ran, and went up the ladder like a cat. His head came out in the middle of the floor of a large round chamber. A red lamp hung from its roof; the westward window-slit was high and dark. Something was lying on the floor by the wall under the window, but over it a black orc-shape was straddled. It raised a whip a second time, but the blow never fell. With a cry Sam leapt across the floor, Sting in his hand. The orc wheeled round, but before it could make a move Sam slashed its whip-hand from its arm… …He ran to the figure huddled on the floor. It was Frodo.
... He was naked, lying as if in a swoon on a heap of filthy rags: his arm was flung up, shielding his head, and across his side there ran an ugly whip-weal.
... 'Frodo! Mr. Frodo, my dear!' cried Sam, tears almost blinding him. 'It's Sam, I've come!' he half lifted his master and hugged him to his breast. Frodo opened his eyes.
... 'Am I still dreaming?" he muttered. 'But the other dreams were horrible.'
... 'You're not dreaming at all, Master,' said Sam. 'It's real. It's me. I've come.'
... 'I can hardly believe it,' said Frodo, clutching him. 'There was an orc with a whip, and then it turns into Sam! Then I wasn't dreaming after all when I heard that singing down below, and I tried to answer? Was it you?'
... 'It was indeed, Mr. Frodo. I'd given up hope, almost. I couldn't find you.'
... 'Well, you have now, Sam, dear Sam,' said Frodo, and he lay back in Sam's gentle arms, closing his eyes, like a child at rest when night-fears are driven away by some loved voice or hand.
... Sam felt like he could sit like that in endless happiness…"
[The Tower of Cirith Ungol: The Return of the King: pgs 227-228]
We have been there and back again.
TIME Google Calendar
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NottaSackville
Valinor
Sep 6 2019, 12:03pm
Post #5 of 11
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Happiness: money matters, but less than we think and not in the way that we think. Family is important and so are friends, while envy is toxic -- and so is excessive thinking. Beaches are optional. Trust is not. Neither is gratitude. - The Geography of Bliss by Eric Weiner as summarized by Lily Fairbairn. And a bit of the Hobbit reading thrown in never hurts. - NottaSackville
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Sep 6 2019, 1:37pm
Post #6 of 11
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After countless readings, I can sometimes still get goosebumps from that passage
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Everything just works. Merry is paralyzed by fear while the king's guard is driven off by fear, yet Dernhelm is TOTALLY fearless. And phrases like "the clear voice was like the ring of steel"--yeah, the steel that's gonna chop off yo' head, Mr Bad Nazgul!!!! Oh, I could go on and on.
Then Merry heard of all sounds in that hour the strangest. It seemed that Dernhelm laughed, and the clear voice was like the ring of steel. 'But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.'
For me the weakest part of the movie is Eowyn looking like she has no idea what to do in a sword fight or with a weapon in her hand. The original passage is built on total confidence in her fighting ability, and that's achingly absent in the movie.
I would say they had to trim a little for the movie. If she'd said "dwimmerlaik," no one one would have had a clue what she was talking about. And if the film were released now, the theater would light up with people googling that term on their phones and cursing at spell check. (Then again, movie-firsters had no clue what Gandalf was talking about in his short speech to the Balrog on the Moria bridge, and the language just sounds good.)
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Nomad
Forum Admin
Sep 6 2019, 2:16pm
Post #7 of 11
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Yeah some of it legitimately had to go...
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But I contend that a great deal more should have remained. Had the production been done solely for my personal enjoyment and they weren't concerned with things like... making money, it would have been a 25 hour BBC mini-series. Still shot in New Zealand of course, but perhaps with less emphasis on the CGI and more on the story and dialogue. For me, the 'bigatures' and forced perspective shots were the most realistic and pleasing visuals anyway, aside of course from the shear beauty of the Island and the wonderful Shire sets.
Tom Bombadil and Goldberry would (obviously) be included, barrow wights definitely... no Captain Barbosa showing up on the paths of the dead and, beyond the taking of the ships, the ghosts would have played no further role. In short, it would have been something even Christopher might have approved of. Oh and as someone else mentioned, Faramir would get to retain his Numenorean nobility, as would Aragorn (yes, the insinuation was very subtle, but never in the books did he even once consider the possibility of taking Eowyn over Arwen.)
But don't pay any heed to me. This is a twenty year build-up of bitter grumbling. I do enjoy the movies as movies, and as has been said here oft - the books are the books. The movies are the movies.
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Sep 6 2019, 8:27pm
Post #9 of 11
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that I'd been looking forward to hearing her say, "Begone, foul dwimmerlaik!", and a tiny part of my heart died when the scene zoomed right past it.
But, "I am no man" was a hell of a delivery.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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Solicitr
Gondor
Sep 7 2019, 12:39pm
Post #10 of 11
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For me, one of my general objections to the movies on the whole is the way they continually dumbed things down on the assumption the audience would be too stupid to follow the content of one of the best-selling books of all time.
Best exemplified, perhaps, in making Saruman an outright servant of Sauron rather than retaining his elaborate double game. Most amusingly in Legolas' numerous Captain Obvious lines: "A diversion!" "They're taking the hobbits to Isengard!"
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Solicitr
Gondor
Sep 7 2019, 12:42pm
Post #11 of 11
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Even if "dwimmerlaik" would be too much for the audience (not that it was a word T's readership would have known, either, since nobody had used it for a thousand years), they still could have kept the awesome insult "lord of carrion."
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