Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 30 2019, 7:14am
Post #1 of 28
(3343 views)
Shortcut
|
|
The Language of Dorwinion?
|
Can't Post
|
|
I've been working on my home-brewed material for The One Ring Roleplaying Game, specifically a "TOR Guide to Dorwinion". I know I should give the folk of Dorwinion their own native language in addition to Westron, some Sindarin and Rhûnnic dialects. Physically, my best guess is that Dorwinion would have been located in the approximate region of the Czech Republic, Poland and Slovakia. In the Bronze Age the dominant language would have been Celtic. Should I use that as my default? Or is there a better option? I need to decide this in order to devise names for notable non-player characters.
The assumption used in The One Ring is that Dorwinion is inhabited by Men: a dusky, dark-eyed folk. Una of Dorwinion, a merchant-princess, becomes Bard's queen.
"Change is inevitable. Growth is optional." - DRWolf (after John C. Maxwell)
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Aug 30 2019, 7:27am)
|
|
|
Na Vedui
Rohan
Aug 30 2019, 11:37pm
Post #2 of 28
(3257 views)
Shortcut
|
A quick look at Wikipedia suggests that it might be the Gaulish variety of Celtic (now extinct) that would be the closest known match for that area. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaulish_language
There will be some Gaulish names attested in inscriptions. Beyond that, it seems that of the surviving Celtic languages, the Welsh-Cornish-Breton group are probably closer to Gaulish than the Irish-Scots Gaelic-Manx group.
Just found this - don't know how authentic it is, but might be fun to try - https://www.fantasynamegenerators.com/celtic-gaul-names.php
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 31 2019, 1:48am
Post #3 of 28
(3240 views)
Shortcut
|
Those links might be only of limited help, though the names provided or generated would probably be more authentic then the Old Germanic names I've been compiling so far. I may end up using a mixture of various sources
One assumption that could be made is that the Gauls might have displaced the earlier people who inhabited Dorwinion in the Third Age. However, that assumption is not very helpful. There are several names used in-game and I want to try to match them when possible:
- Uma, a merchant-princess of Dorwinion (and Bard's queen)
- Alduna, a boatwoman
- Halbrech, a wine-merchant of Dorwinion
- Harod, father of Halbrech
"Change is inevitable. Growth is optional." - DRWolf (after John C. Maxwell)
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Aug 31 2019, 2:02am)
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 31 2019, 5:14am
Post #4 of 28
(3221 views)
Shortcut
|
Okay, I've borrowed from several sources, on the hypothesis that Dorwinion represented a blending of the Northmen with an Easterling people that possibly had ties to the Haradrim. I've got Gaelic mixed with Old English and Old German names (with a couple of ringers for novelty).
Dorwinion Personal Names
Male Names: Adalrech, Ailin, Amalrech, Anluan, Aodhán, Bearach, Berinhard, Bran, Brandan, Bron, Cadhla, Callach, Carthach, Conell, Connery, Devin, Donal, Earnán, Feolán, Fergal, Fiach, Fionan, Garvan, Gerhart, Gerrit, Gerwald, Halbrech, Harod, Jarlath, Kealan, Kerill, Konrad, Lorcan, Lysagh, Mellan, Myles, Niall, Odo, Odran, Osgar, Owney, Radulf, Randal, Richart, Ronan, Rory, Rudiger, Sivney, Theodbald, Tiarnach, Tuathal, Waldan, Waldher.
Female Names: Ada, Aideen, Aifric, Alana, Alduna, Amalia, Anna, Bathelda, Bernardine, Berneen, Bevin, Carla, Ciara, Clíona, Dagmar, Dervila, Donelle, Dorren, Eavan, Edana, Ethna, Fidelma, Finola, Geralda, Geretrudis, Griseldis, Haldis, Hannah, Hildegarde, Ida, Irma, Karla, Keelin, Lewenarda, Lina, Lucy, Maeve, Mathilda, Maura, Meeda, Milisande, Monat, Myrna, Nadine, Nelda, Noreen, Orlaith, Renny, Riona, Rosaleen, Sabina, Selda, Sláine, Summer, Tanith, Tilda, Una, Vevina, Wenda, Yseult.
"Change is inevitable. Growth is optional." - DRWolf (after John C. Maxwell)
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Aug 31 2019, 5:17am)
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 31 2019, 2:13pm
Post #5 of 28
(3180 views)
Shortcut
|
Anyone have any ideas as to how to name the Merchant Houses of Dorwinion? I was thinking about naming them for stars, but (excluding planets) I don't think there are enough named stars or constellations in the legendarium, much less ones named in either Sindarin or Westron.
"Change is inevitable. Growth is optional." - DRWolf (after John C. Maxwell)
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Aug 31 2019, 2:14pm)
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 31 2019, 5:29pm
Post #6 of 28
(3159 views)
Shortcut
|
The Merchant Houses
In a tradition going back to the days of the kings of Gondor, the Merchant Houses of Dorwinion use Elvish (usually Quenya) names.
- House Alma (good fortune)
- House Brethil (birch)
- House Ciryatan (shipwright)
- House Kurwë (craft)
- House Lindalë (music)
- House Mailë (pleasure)
- House Makar (tradesman)
- House Móta (toil, labour)
- House Muilë (secrecy)
- House Nolë (knowledge)
- House Telpë (silver)
- House Tindómë (twilight of dawn)
- House Tirion (watch-tower)
- House Undómë (evening twilight)
- House Veassë (vigor, health)
"Change is inevitable. Growth is optional." - DRWolf (after John C. Maxwell)
|
|
|
Na Vedui
Rohan
Aug 31 2019, 6:04pm
Post #7 of 28
(3157 views)
Shortcut
|
Some of them sound quite archaic/unfamiliar enough to be credible; others (eg Connery, Myles, Rory, Bernardine, Maeve, names ending -een and -elle, feel to me a bit too clearly Irish/Scottish/modern, at any rate in those forms. Yseult, of course, is strongly associated with the Tristan legend.
Hannah is a Biblical name, I believe, so a bit of an anachronism here, as it presumably got into the Celtic countries' repertoire as part of the influence of Christianity, like so much else (David, Rebecca, Deborah, Michael etc)
Actual Gaulish seemed to produce names like the ones here: https://en.wiktionary.org/...ish_male_given_names
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 31 2019, 6:18pm
Post #8 of 28
(3155 views)
Shortcut
|
Some of those (including Hannah and even Connery) are anglicizations of older names where the pronunciation is essentially the same. But, yes, I did dip deeply into Irish Gaulic reasoning that the folk of Dorwinion might have eventually been displaced to what is now Ireland. It's a bit of a stretch, but we are looking at the passage of thousands of years.
"Change is inevitable. Growth is optional." - DRWolf (after John C. Maxwell)
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Aug 31 2019, 6:20pm)
|
|
|
Na Vedui
Rohan
Aug 31 2019, 8:48pm
Post #9 of 28
(3146 views)
Shortcut
|
http://www.namenerds.com/welsh/trad2.html
http://www.namenerds.com/welsh/trad1.html
Again, a few are Welsh-icised versions of ones that could only have been borrowed into Welsh "post-LOTR" (eg Dafydd from David) and a few have become what you might call cliché-Welsh (such as Dai, Gwladys & Blodwen). But a lot are native, quite unusual these days, and sound quite Tolkien-ish - unsurprisingly of course, since Welsh was one of his inspirations for Sindarin
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 31 2019, 11:53pm
Post #10 of 28
(3134 views)
Shortcut
|
Hmmm, thanks! I may have underestimated how helpful Welch names might be. I may borrow from those after all.
"Change is inevitable. Growth is optional." - DRWolf (after John C. Maxwell)
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 1 2019, 2:53pm
Post #11 of 28
(3073 views)
Shortcut
|
I've added some Welch names to the lists and winnowed it down a bit.
Male Names: Adalrech, Aneirin, Amalrech, Anluan, Aodhán, Bearach, Bleddyn, Bran, Brandan, Bron, Cadwaladr, Caerwyn, Callach, Conell, Dilwyn, Donal, Earnán, Feolán, Fergal, Gareth, Garvan, Gerrit, Geraint, Halbrech, Harod, Jarlath, Kealan, Kerill, Konrad, Llewelyn, Lorcan, Mellan, Morcant, Niall, Odran, Osgar, Owain, Radulf, Randal, Richart, Ronan, Rudiger, Rhys, Sivney, Talfryn, Traherne, Tuathal, Waldan, Wyn.
Female Names: Ada, Aeronwen, Agrona, Alana, Alduna, Amalia, Anna, Arianwen, Bathelda, Bevin, Branwen, Carla, Ciara, Clíona, Delwyn, Dervila, Dorren, Dwynwen, Edana, Eleri, Enid, Finola, Geralda, Glenys, Gwendolen, Haldis, Hannah, Ida, Isolde, Karla, Keelin, Lewenarda, Lina, Maeve, Mathilda, Maura, Meeda, Milisande, Morgwen, Myrddin Nelda, Orlaith, Rhianwen, Riona, Rosaleen, Sabina, Sláine, Summer, Tanith, Tilda, Una, Vevina, Wenda, Yseult.
"Change is inevitable. Growth is optional." - DRWolf (after John C. Maxwell)
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 3 2019, 12:56pm
Post #12 of 28
(2965 views)
Shortcut
|
Some of them sound quite archaic/unfamiliar enough to be credible; others (eg Connery, Myles, Rory, Bernardine, Maeve, names ending -een and -elle, feel to me a bit too clearly Irish/Scottish/modern, at any rate in those forms. Yseult, of course, is strongly associated with the Tristan legend.
Hannah is a Biblical name, I believe, so a bit of an anachronism here, as it presumably got into the Celtic countries' repertoire as part of the influence of Christianity, like so much else (David, Rebecca, Deborah, Michael etc)
I overlooked a couple from The One Ring:
- Hanna, daughter of Halbrech the wine-merchant (The Darkening of Mirkwood)
- Gwina of Dorwinion, a woman who is a trader and merchant whose "brightly painted boat is a common sight on the River Running" (The Heart of the Wild).
So Hanna (one 'h') is canon to the game. Gwina could be seen as a feminine form of the Welch name Gwin (or Gwyn).
"Change is inevitable. Growth is optional." - DRWolf (after John C. Maxwell)
|
|
|
Solicitr
Gondor
Sep 4 2019, 12:02am
Post #13 of 28
(2908 views)
Shortcut
|
of names of Germanic origin in there: Konrad, Carla, Mathilda, Radulf, Richart, Rudiger. Anna is Hebraic/Biblical. Una is Latin.
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 4 2019, 12:38am
Post #14 of 28
(2905 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Some of those are canonical to the game.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
[A lot] of names of Germanic origin in there: Konrad, Carla, Mathilda, Radulf, Richart, Rudiger. Anna is Hebraic/Biblical. Una is Latin.
Specific to the names you cite, the origins of Anna and Una can be disputed or be traced to more than one source. Also, Una appears in-game as the merchant-princess from Dorwinion who Bard falls in love with and weds as his queen, so that can be considered canonical to The One Ring. Harod seems overtly Biblical, yet it appears in published TOR material.
Many names that are counted as German today can also be traced to Old English and variants that can be found throughout Europe. However, I might revisit some of those with the possibility of removing them if they seem overly distracting. I haven't really started on producing a house-ruled culture for the Men of Dorwinion. Ultimately, it looks like I'll be going with a mixture of Welsh, Irish, and Old English (possibly with some Scots Gaelic as well).
"Change is inevitable. Growth is optional." - DRWolf (after John C. Maxwell)
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 4 2019, 12:42am)
|
|
|
Solicitr
Gondor
Sep 4 2019, 5:40am
Post #15 of 28
(2873 views)
Shortcut
|
Old English is Germanic....
|
|
|
Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Sep 6 2019, 11:25pm
Post #16 of 28
(2753 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Why not name some after the Italian merchant houses in the middle-ages?
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I expect that Tolkien would have appreciated that and it fits with the selling of strong wine. Mind they must have produced extremely strong wine to knock out a woodand Elf like Galion. But perhaps he did drink a lot of it. Or was simply not used to the stuff.
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 7 2019, 12:40am
Post #17 of 28
(2748 views)
Shortcut
|
It seems to me that Italian/Latin names would be to out of place.
"Change is inevitable. Growth is optional." - DRWolf (after John C. Maxwell)
|
|
|
Solicitr
Gondor
Sep 7 2019, 12:26pm
Post #18 of 28
(2634 views)
Shortcut
|
Tolkien went out of his way to avoid using Latinate names,* Elvish tongues occupying the Greco-Latin linguistic space in his world. He also avoided Hebraic names, and pointed out that Hobbit nicknames that appeared to be so weren't really. (Khuzdul was influenced by Hebrew, but he gives us almost no Dwarvish "true" names.)
But he borrowed extensively from various Germanic tongues, in certain cultural contexts, and also raided pre-Welsh Brythonic for some of the more pretentious Hobbit families (Gorhendad, Saradoc etc)
*With the glaring exception of Gerontius, the Old Took. For obvious reasons.
|
|
|
Hasuwandil
Lorien
Sep 7 2019, 1:32pm
Post #19 of 28
(2614 views)
Shortcut
|
Well, if you go far enough back, Italian and Celtic were the same language, whether there actually was an Italo-Celtic language, as some linguists have proposed, or whether proto-Celtic and proto-Italic were independently derived from proto-Indo-European. However, my point is not about the similarity of modern (or medieval) Celtic and Italic languages, but of how much languages change (even the "same" language) over time.
I'm not certain how Tolkien would have handled the language(s) of Dorwinion if he had focused his efforts in that area. He didn't leave us much to go on. Dorwinion, Rhûn, and Harad are all Sindarin names. Only Khand does not appear to be Elvish, unless it's an alternative orthography of Sindarin hand, "intelligent". However, Khand does seem to fit in well with both Adûnaic and Khuzdul orthography, although I suspect Tolkien intended it to be a name from whatever language was spoken in Khand. Dorwinion seems to have been ruled alternately by Gondor and various Easterling tribes, and perhaps also independent at times during the Third Age. They traded with Thranduil's kingdom, and there is some speculation that there were Elves in Dorwinion. For given names, I imagine Tolkien would have used Sindarin names (as commonly used by both Elves and Men of Gondor), possibly Adûnaic/Westron names, or made up names in some Easterling language or whatever was spoken natively in Dorwinion.
The problem I see with using Celtic names is that Tolkien already used Celtic names for placenames in Bree-land, the people of Bree were related to the Dunlendings, and Dunland is pretty far from Dorwinion. If I were going to use a real-world language for given names in Dorwinion, given its location relative to Rhovanion, I would probably use a Slavic, Balkan, or Iranian language. Or, assuming no relation to the languages of the Northmen, I would go with a Turkic, Mongolic, or Tungusic language. However, thinking like Tolkien, instead of borrowing common given names, which may be well-known internationally and are often of foreign extraction, I would come up with my own names from root words in the source language. Of course, whether that's worth the effort for a game is up to you. If you need a lot of names and don't have much time to spare, it may be quicker to just use a list of names you found online.
Hêlâ Aurwandil, angilô berhtost,
oƀar Middangard mannum gisandid!
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 7 2019, 1:53pm
Post #20 of 28
(2609 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Dorwinion Names in The One Ring
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Well, as I posted earler, Various books for The One Ring Roleplaying Game have provided the names for some non-player characters from Dorwinion. Those names provide some clues about what language(s) might be appropriate for Dorwinion. What we have:
- Alduna, a boatwoman and trader
- Gwina, a woman who is a trader and merchant from Dorwinion
- Halbrech, a wine-merchant of Dorwinion
- Hanna, daughter of Halbrech the wine-merchant
- Harod, father of Halbrech
- Una, a merchant-princess of Dorwinion who becomes Bard's queen
From these names I detect hints of Old English, Irish and Welsh. But maybe you have a better guess or two.
"Change is inevitable. Growth is optional." - DRWolf (after John C. Maxwell)
|
|
|
The Dude
Rivendell
Sep 8 2019, 3:16am
Post #21 of 28
(2504 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Why not use a bastardized version of Old Prussian?
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Now as we all know Tolkien never came up with a language for the people of Dorwinion, nor did he ever intend to do so probably. It is also entirely possible that the men of Dorwinion used an evolved variety of the language spoken by the Northmen (Gothic).
If you want to use something that sounds somewhat more exotic than the usual mix of (Old) English and various insular Celtic languages, I would recommend the long forgotten tongue of Old Prussian: a range of now long-extinct Baltic (i.e., non-Germanic) dialects that were spoken along the Baltic coast in modern day Poland, Kaliningrad (Russia), and Lithuania. The language died out for good somewhere between the 17th and 18th centuries, yet already saw a severe decline in the 13th. There are fairly good reasons to appropriate it for your purposes:
From a geographical perspective, Old Baltic was spoken in a region that was rather closer to the Anglo-Saxon cosmos, but in the context of medieval dimensions rather far away. In fact it was an Anglo-Saxon trader, Wulfstan of Hedeby, who gave us one of the first accounts of the Old Prussians, dating from late ninth century. In some ways the eastern part of Wilderland (between the Mirkwood and the Sea of Rhûn) bears a resemblance to North-Eastern Europe, i.e., the Baltics, Northwestern (Europ.) Russia, and northern Ukraine (Garðaríki). It is therefore somewhat fitting to use a mysterious extinct language here. And Tolkien's devotion to the Finnish language shows that he did not shy away from adopting more exotic European languages.
Now there is actually a very old German article on Old-Prussian personal names, so here are some examples:
Arvidete, Taysoth, Clausite, Swaiprat, Hisprot, Poithun, Laycoth, Nadraus, Nuglande, Dygune, Liccote, Nerwiks, Preydesse, Runkim, Nodruwe, Succule, Darge, Dergo, Poglawun, Waykelle
You can find more of those if you search for the 1904 article "Die altpreußischen Personennamen" by Reinhold Trautmann (on archive.org for example).
|
|
|
Hasuwandil
Lorien
Sep 8 2019, 4:02am
Post #22 of 28
(2484 views)
Shortcut
|
|
You can't go wrong with Sindarin
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Oh, I hadn't picked up that all six of those names were from the game. Still, with such a small sample, it's difficult for me to make a generalization other than that some of those names seem Sindarin-ish, but not really Sindarin. (Or generic fantasy names, which is pretty much the same thing.) As far as specific real-world languages go, there's not much to go on. Old English? From "Una" and "Alduna", we may infer that ald is a root word in a language of Dorwinion. However, similarity between root words of different languages is so frequent as to not be notable. Even when two words in two different languages are both similar and have similar meanings, it may just be a coincidence. "Halbrech" does seem reminiscent of Continental Germanic names, such as "Albrecht" and "Alberich", but it could also be interpreted as Welsh-like ("Harlech"), or Sindarinesque, for that matter. "Gwina" may seem Welsh-like, but initial gw is also common in Sindarin, and in fact Sindarin gwîn ("youth") or gwein ("young") is the source of the "win" in "Dorwinion". I'm not sure I see any Irish-like names among the six. Of course, "Hanna" and "Harod" may seem reminiscent of certain Biblical names, but again such a similarity may only be coincidental. Many of the House of Haleth of the First Age also had names that began with "Ha".
Considering the names in isolation, without trying to tie them to any specific language, two things are immediately apparent, apart from the apparent relationship between "Una" and "Alduna" noted above: 1) the people of Dorwinion, or at least one family thereof, seem to have a fondness for alliteration, and 2) -a, -na, or possibly -ina/-una appears to be a common feminine suffix or root word. Alliteration among the names of siblings and from one generation to the next is extremely common in Tolkien's works, and in various different cultures, from Elves to Rohirrim. This same practice was common among the royal families of the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms, as well as other Germanic peoples, which is presumably where Tolkien got the idea. On the other hand, despite Tolkien's reputed fondness for the Spanish language, I can't really think of any of his female characters whose names end in -a, apart from some Hobbits, whose names are relatively modern, and Valar, whose names are in Quenya. It seems rather un-Tolkienian to me to use -a to indicate that a name or other word is feminine, or to make a word that was not originally feminine (e.g. Sindarin gwîn, which is apparently neuter) into a feminine word. That said, if you want to follow the theme of the six provided names, you might as well end your Dorwinion female names with -a.
By the way, in my previous post I indicated that the Tolkienian way to create names is to put existing root words together. Of course, Tolkien did borrow several names wholesale from history or literature when creating some of his Hobbit names, as well as his wizard and dwarves in The Hobbit, although when he initially did so, he was not planning for them to become part of his legendarium. (Likewise he used Anglo-Saxon runes instead of Cirth.) He also, being the inventor of his languages, had the luxury of coming up with names he liked first, and then assigning a meaning to them later.
Hêlâ Aurwandil, angilô berhtost,
oƀar Middangard mannum gisandid!
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 8 2019, 4:49am
Post #24 of 28
(2470 views)
Shortcut
|
I'm not sure I see any Irish-like names among the six.
Well, Una is generally identified as an Irish name, though it could be considered to be a diminutive form of Alduna. The name Alduna seems to be made up, but might have been derived from the Old German name Aldona (meaning 'old' or possibly 'noble').
"Change is inevitable. Growth is optional." - DRWolf (after John C. Maxwell)
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 8 2019, 5:10am
Post #25 of 28
(2456 views)
Shortcut
|
Now as we all know Tolkien never came up with a language for the people of Dorwinion, nor did he ever intend to do so probably. It is also entirely possible that the men of Dorwinion used an evolved variety of the language spoken by the Northmen (Gothic).
If you want to use something that sounds somewhat more exotic than the usual mix of (Old) English and various insular Celtic languages, I would recommend the long forgotten tongue of Old Prussian: a range of now long-extinct Baltic (i.e., non-Germanic) dialects that were spoken along the Baltic coast in modern day Poland, Kaliningrad (Russia), and Lithuania. The language died out for good somewhere between the 17th and 18th centuries, yet already saw a severe decline in the 13th...
...Now there is actually a very old German article on Old-Prussian personal names, so here are some examples:
Arvidete, Taysoth, Clausite, Swaiprat, Hisprot, Poithun, Laycoth, Nadraus, Nuglande, Dygune, Liccote, Nerwiks, Preydesse, Runkim, Nodruwe, Succule, Darge, Dergo, Poglawun, Waykelle
You can find more of those if you search for the 1904 article "Die altpreußischen Personennamen" by Reinhold Trautmann (on archive.org for example).
That's an interesting notion, though I wonder if those names sound a bit too exotic. One complication is that the in-game description of the folk of Dorwinion evokes the Mediterranean, the Middle-east or India ("To the Northmen, the folk of Dorwinion seem exotic, with dusky complexions, deep, dark eyes, and clothes of brightly patterned cloth..."), yet the names that have appeared in published material don't for the most part evoke those regions.
I have done some research for other regional tongues of Middle-earth; for the Lossoth (Snowmen) of Forochel, for example, I used the Sammi language of Scandinavia for my template.
"Change is inevitable. Growth is optional." - DRWolf (after John C. Maxwell)
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 8 2019, 5:15am)
|
|
|
|
= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
1
