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It's time for some BS!
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CuriousG
Half-elven


May 24, 2:21pm

Post #26 of 49 (2203 views)
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That really is (platonic) love at first sight. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


grammaboodawg
Immortal


May 24, 4:37pm

Post #27 of 49 (2201 views)
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I love Pippin's insights [In reply to] Can't Post

He's more attune than people realize. He could "see" Aragorn hunting for Merry and him when they were being carried by the orcs. And here he could "see" Faramir's quality.



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grammaboodawg
Immortal


May 25, 11:48am

Post #28 of 49 (2145 views)
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It's time for some more BS! [In reply to] Can't Post

This is part 2 of a 3-part "What they saw" Book Spoiler describing what Frodo saw on Amon Hen as he wore the Ring... for a moment of Tolkien-zen.

The Breaking of the Fellowship


... "[Frodo] came out alone on the summit of Amon Hen, and halted, gasping for breath. He saw as through a mist a wide flat circle, paved with mighty flags, and surrounded with a crumbling battlement; and in the middle, set upon four carven pillars... ...a high seat, reached by a stair of many steps. Up he went and sat upon the ancient chair, feeling like a lost child that had clambered upon the throne of mountain-kings.
... At first he could see little... ...a world of mist in which there were only shadows: the Ring was upon him. Then here and there the mist gave way and he saw many visions: small and clear as if they were under his eyes upon a table, and yet remote... ...no sound, only bright living images. The world seemed to have shrunk and fallen silent. He was sitting upon the Seat of Seeing, on Amon Hen, the Hill of the Eye of the Men of Númenor. Eastward he looked into wide uncharted lands, nameless plains, and forests unexplored. Northward... ...the Great River lay like a ribbon beneath him, and the Misty Mountains stood small and hard as broken teeth. Westward he looked and saw the broad pastures of Rohan; and Orthanc, the pinnacle of Isengard, like a black spike. Southward... ...and below his very feet the Great River curled like a toppling wave and plunged over the falls of Rauros into a foaming pit... ...And Ethir Anduin he saw, the mighty delta of the River, and myriads of sea-birds whirling like a white dust in the sun, and beneath them a green and silver sea, rippling in endless lines."



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CuriousG
Half-elven


May 25, 3:50pm

Post #29 of 49 (2135 views)
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This made me realize that unlike Legolas, [In reply to] Can't Post

Frodo's vision of the Sea had no effect on him nor gave him any sense of doom about his ultimate departure from ME. To him, it was just the Sea. Probably because he had more important things on his mind.


Cirashala
Tol Eressea


May 25, 5:28pm

Post #30 of 49 (2123 views)
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Or is it because [In reply to] Can't Post

Legolas was not ready to leave ME, possibly not inclined to at all, and yet he knew how perilous it was to awaken the sea-longing- an ailment that does not affect hobbits?

I find it interesting that Legolas seems to interpret it as Galadriel foretelling his death, not his departure from ME via ship. Elves fear death even more so than any other race, from what I understand, because it's so unnatural and grievous to them for their fea/soul to be separated from their physical bodies. Legolas specifically states that "at least she didn't foretell your death", not "at least she didn't foretell that you will leave Middle-earth".

I don't think that Legolas was afraid of leaving Middle-earth, though he certainly did not want to leave it at this point in his life. I think he was afraid of dying.

It makes his loyalty to Aragorn and willingness to continue on with the Quest, as it were, that much more poignant, I think, thinking that he's going to die if he sees the sea and knowing that they're heading that direction anyway. He could have easily hightailed it back to Mirkwood, as far away from the sea as he could-but he didn't, out of loyalty to his friends.

Elrond sure knew how to pick 'em, didn't he? Evil

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grammaboodawg
Immortal


May 26, 11:58am

Post #31 of 49 (2074 views)
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It's time for a bit more BS [In reply to] Can't Post

This is part 3 of a 3-part "What they saw" Book Spoiler describing what Finrod Felagund saw as he journeyed alone ... for a moment of Tolkien-zen.

From Of the Coming of Men into the West: The Silmarillion


... "When three hundred years and more were gone since the Noldor came to Beleriand... ...Finrod Felagund lord of Nargothrond journeyed east of Sirion and went hunting with Maglor and Maedhros, sons of Fëanor. But he wearied of the chase and passed on alone towards the mountains of Ered Lindon that he saw shining afar... ...taking the Dwarf-road he crossed Gelion at the ford of Sarn Athrad, and... ...south over the upper streams of Ascar... ...into the north of Ossiriand.
... In a valley among the foothills of the mountains... ...he saw lights in the evening, and far off he heard the sound of song. At this he wondered much, for the Green-elves of that land lit no fires, nor did they sing by night. At first he feared that a raid of Orcs had passed the leaguer of the North, but as he drew near he perceived that it was not so... ...the singers used a tongue that he had not heard before, neither that of Dwarves nor of Orcs. Then Felagund, standing silent in the night-shadow of the trees, looked down into the camp, and there he beheld a strange people....
... ...these were a part of the kindred and following of Bëor the Old, as he was afterwards called, a chieftain among Men. After many lives of wandering out of the East he had led them at last over the Blue Mountains, the first of the race of Men to enter Beleriand... ...they sang because they were glad, and believed that they had escaped from all perils and had come at last to a land without fear.”



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grammaboodawg
Immortal


May 27, 11:20am

Post #32 of 49 (1976 views)
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TIME - May 27 [In reply to] Can't Post

Today in Middle-earth

May 27, 3019 (S.R. 1419)
1. The escort of Arwen leaves Lórien.
(from the appendices-no text)

...Arwen is leaving Lothlórien to travel to Minas Tirith via Edoras along with Elrond (Lord of Rivendell), Galadriel and Celeborn (Lady and Lord of the Galadrim), Glorfindel and Erestor (Elrond's chief counsellor), and other members of the household of Rivendell.

May 27, 3020 (S.R. 1420)
1. Spring in the Shire.
(not from the appendices-no text)

...The hobbits of the Shire enjoy the fairest spring they can remember while continuing to heal the hurts caused by Sharkey and his brute-squad.



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grammaboodawg
Immortal


May 28, 10:14am

Post #33 of 49 (1867 views)
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TIME - May 28 [In reply to] Can't Post

Today in Middle-earth

May 28, 2941 (S.R. 1341)
1. The road swings southeast through open country. Ahead are the hills of the Trollshaws.
(from Karen Wynn Fonstad, The Atlas of Middle-earth)

..."Mostly it had been as good as May can be, even in merry tales, but now it was cold and wet. In the Lone-lands they had to camp when they could, but at least it had been dry.
..."To think it will soon be June," grumbled Bilbo as he splashed along behind the others in a very muddy track. It was after tea-time; it was pouring with rain, and had been all day; his hood was dripping into his eyes, his cloak was full of water... ...the others were too grumpy to talk. "And I'm sure the rain has got into the dry clothes and into the food-bags," thought Bilbo. "Bother burgling and everything to do with it! I wish I was at home in my nice hole by the fire, with the kettle just beginning to sing!" It was not the last time that he wished that!"



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grammaboodawg
Immortal


May 29, 12:17pm

Post #34 of 49 (1826 views)
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TIME - May 29 [In reply to] Can't Post

Today in Middle-earth

May 29, 2941 (S.R. 1341)
1. The weather turns trollish; and the Company realizes Gandalf is missing.
(from Karen Wynn Fonstad, The Atlas of Middle-earth)

..."...Soon it was nearly dark.... ...Not until then did they notice that Gandalf was missing. So far he had come all the way with them, never saying if he was in the adventure or merely keeping them company for a while. He had eaten most, talked most, and laughed most. But now he simply was not there at all!
..."Just when a wizard would have been most useful, too," groaned Dori and Nori (who shared the hobbit's views about regular meals, plenty and often).
...They decided in the end that they would have to camp where they were.... ...They moved to a clump of trees, and though it was drier under them, the wind shook the rain off the leaves, and the drip, drip, was most annoying. Also the mischief seemed to have got into the fire. Dwarves can make a fire almost anywhere out of almost anything, wind or no wind; but they could not do it that night....

...There they all sat glum and wet and muttering, while Oin and Gloin went on trying to light the fire, and quarrelling about it. Bilbo was sadly reflecting that adventures are not all pony-rides in May-sunshine, when Balin, who was always their look-out man, said: "There's a light over there...!'

..."...Now it is the burglar's turn... ...You must go on and find out all about that light, and what it is for, and if all is perfectly safe and canny," said Thorin to the hobbit. "Now scuttle off, and come back quick, if all is well. If not, come back if you can! If you can't, hoot twice like a barn-owl and once like a screech-owl, and we will do what we can."
...Off Bilbo had to go, before he could explain that he could not hoot even once like any kind of owl any more than fly like a bat. But at any rate hobbits can move quietly in woods, absolutely quietly.... ...he got right up to the fire—for fire it was—without disturbing anyone. And this is what he saw.
...Three very large persons sitting round a very large fire of beech-logs. They were toasting mutton on long spits of wood, and licking the gravy off their fingers... ...Also there was a barrel of good drink at hand, and they were drinking out of jugs.
...But they were trolls... ...Even Bilbo, in spite of his sheltered life, could see that...
..."...Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer," said one of the trolls.
..."Never a blinking bit of manflesh have we had for long enough," said a second....

......After hearing all this Bilbo ought to have done something at once. Either he should have gone back quietly and warned his friends that there were three fair-sized trolls at hand in a nasty mood, quite likely to try toasted dwarf, or even pony, for a change; or else he should have done a bit of good quick burgling.... ...Of the various burglarious proceedings he had heard of picking the trolls' pockets seemed the least difficult, so at last he crept behind a tree just behind William.
......Bilbo plucked up courage and put his little hand in William's enormous pocket. There was a purse in it, as big as a bag to Bilbo. "Ha!" thought he warming to his new work as he lifted it carefully out, "this is a beginning!"
...It was! Trolls' purses are the mischief, and this was no exception. "'Ere, 'oo are you?" it squeaked, as it left the pocket; and William turned round at once and grabbed Bilbo by the neck....
..."...Blimey, Bert, look what I've copped!" said William.
..."What is it?" said the others coming up.
..."Lumme, if I knows! What are yer?"
..."Bilbo Baggins, a bur—a hobbit," said poor Bilbo, shaking all over, and wondering how to make owl-noises before they throttled him.
..."A Burrahobbit?" said they a bit startled. Trolls are slow in the uptake...."



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CuriousG
Half-elven


May 29, 2:35pm

Post #35 of 49 (1814 views)
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Makes me wonder what Galadriel's motivation was in those messages [In reply to] Can't Post

  • Aragorn: "take the shortcut and recruit a ghost army by taking The Paths of the Dead--they'll help you win."
  • Gimli: "hi. luv ya"
  • Legolas: "If you follow Aragorn, you'll hear seagulls and never be content in Middle-earth again." And if he didn't follow him but instead went home with his tail between his legs--well, that's not a good outcome either. Why bring it up at all? Why not just send a message like the one to Gimli?

I'm on board with the first two as being helpful, but not with Legolas. Unless it's an Elf-to-Elf thing that's over my head.

Mercifully, Gandalf couldn't deliver a message from her to Frodo. Just think how that would go: "After much hardship and suffering, you will fail at the end, and Gollum will bite off your finger. Oh, and like Legolas, you'll never be content in ME again either."


Cirashala
Tol Eressea


May 29, 5:31pm

Post #36 of 49 (1801 views)
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She really needs to work on her pep talks lol /// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

My writing and novels:

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My historical novel print and kindle version

My historical novels ebook version compatible with all ereaders

You can also find my novel at most major book retailers online (and for those outside the US who prefer a print book, you can find the print version at Book Depository). Search "Amazing Grace Amanda Longpre'" to find it.

Happy reading everyone!


Elthir
Grey Havens


May 29, 7:42pm

Post #37 of 49 (1793 views)
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Fear and fea-r [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Elves fear death even more so than any other race, from what I understand, because it's so unnatural and grievous to them for their fea/soul to be separated from their physical bodies.


I think you're thinking of a statement from the Commentary to Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth published in Morgoth's Ring: "the thought of existence as fear only was revolting to them [Elves]"

But if so, in any case the context here is not about dying in Middle-earth as a consequence of accident or death in battle, but rather refers to Elvish thought with respect to the End of the World. Various options of what a "final death" portended for them are presented, with the general conclusion stating that in the end, the Elves were obliged to rest on "naked estel" that whatever Eru had designed for them beyond the End "would be recognized by each fea as wholly satisfying (at the least)"

And "For these reasons the Elves were less sympathetic than Men expected to the lack of hope (or estel) in Men faced by death."

Finrod then goes on to guess that the fear of death is the result of the "disaster" among Men -- a tradition among Men that they were once in an "unfallen state" before some disaster (a disaster later associated with taking Morgoth as Lord, although this is an extremely brief explanation here), and not "born ever to die".

However Finrod is of the opinion that Men were not once "immortal" (in the Elvish sense), and that originally Men were still designed to leave the world willingly or by desire, even if they once lived longer. Then the Elf comes to the conclusion, based on the axiom that the severance of hroa and fea is unnatural and contrary to design, that the natural death of unfallen Man included the hroa into a new mode of existence, free from time . . .

In other words, as I read this, Finrod thinks that Men began to fear death, because it was (at some point) combined with the idea of the severance of hroa and fea . . .

. . . whereas before the disaster (again, according to Men's own traditions, traditions that did not always perfectly agree with each other), death for Men, was akin to the assumption of the Virgin Mary.

That is, generally speaking (again), hroa and fea taken together in death.


Cirashala
Tol Eressea


May 29, 8:44pm

Post #38 of 49 (1782 views)
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I find the Athrabeth fascinating :) [In reply to] Can't Post

but I don't suppose you answered my question, or rather, my statement- do elves fear the separation of fea and hroa, however brief? We know they'll eventually get a body back (unless their deeds in life were too grievous and/or evil to warrant it, which I doubt Legolas believed of himself), but it is separated at least for a short time.

I can imagine that he feared death, or at least the separation, because when he is depressed/saddened and complaining about her prophecy he specifically concludes that she predicted his death. Legolas says nothing about sailing in that conversation, and the only other way to Valinor besides sailing is...you guessed it...dying and the fea heading to the Halls of Mandos, leaving the hroa behind.

Tolkien was a master of words; thus, I cannot think that he used the word death carelessly, or gave it some other meaning than the actual meaning of the word in that passage.

My writing and novels:

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My historical novels ebook version compatible with all ereaders

You can also find my novel at most major book retailers online (and for those outside the US who prefer a print book, you can find the print version at Book Depository). Search "Amazing Grace Amanda Longpre'" to find it.

Happy reading everyone!


Elthir
Grey Havens


May 29, 9:41pm

Post #39 of 49 (1777 views)
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I was responding to your . . . [In reply to] Can't Post

characterization above, that "Elves fear death even more so than any other race, [because of] . . ."

Which I don't agree with as a general statement about Elves (which this seems to be) . . . and I don't recall this ever being necessarily noted by Tolkien as author, or any of his characters -- including Legolas' reaction to Galadriel's message.


Cirashala
Tol Eressea


May 29, 9:44pm

Post #40 of 49 (1775 views)
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Gotcha [In reply to] Can't Post

I wasn't 100% sure on that one, but I do think that in this moment in the book, Legolas does fear it. Or at the very least, it is incredibly depressing for him to be told he's gonna die soon (in his mind, at least).

My writing and novels:

My Hobbit Fanfiction

My historical novel print and kindle version

My historical novels ebook version compatible with all ereaders

You can also find my novel at most major book retailers online (and for those outside the US who prefer a print book, you can find the print version at Book Depository). Search "Amazing Grace Amanda Longpre'" to find it.

Happy reading everyone!


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


May 30, 12:27am

Post #41 of 49 (1767 views)
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Aww, the talking purse! [In reply to] Can't Post

Best Animated Inanimate Item in Middle-earth! Laugh


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I desired dragons with a profound desire"


grammaboodawg
Immortal


May 30, 10:21am

Post #42 of 49 (1745 views)
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TIME - May 30 [In reply to] Can't Post

Today in Middle-earth

May 30, 2941 (S.R. 1341)
1. Gandalf keeps the trolls arguing until dawn.
(from Karen Wynn Fonstad, The Atlas of Middle-earth)

...""No sooner did Tom see Balin come into the light than he gave an awful howl. Trolls simply detest the very sight of dwarves (uncooked)... ...before Balin, who was wondering where in all this commotion Bilbo was, knew what was happening, a sack was over his head, and he was down.
..."There's more to come yet," said Tom, "or I'm mighty mistook. Lots and none at all, it is," said he. "No burra-hobbits, but lots of these here dwarves... ...As each dwarf came up and looked at the fire, and the spilled jugs, and the gnawed mutton, in surprise, pop! went a nasty smelly sack over his head, and he was down. Soon Dwalin lay by Balin, and Fili and Kili together, and Dori and Nori and Ori all in a heap, and Oin and Gloin and Bifur and Bofur and Bombur piled uncomfortably near the fire...

......Thorin came last—and he was not caught unawares. He came expecting mischief, and didn't need to see his friends' legs sticking out of sacks to tell him that things were not all well... ...he jumped forward to the fire, before they could leap on him. He caught up a big branch all on fire at one end; and Bert got that end in his eye before he could step aside... ...Bilbo did his best. He caught hold of Tom's leg—as well as he could, it was thick as a young tree-trunk—but he was sent spinning up into the top of some bushes, when Tom kicked the sparks up in Thorin's face.
...Tom got the branch in his teeth for that, and lost one of the front ones... ...But just at that moment William came up behind and popped a sack right over Thorin's head and down to his toes. And so the fight ended. A nice pickle they were all in now: all neatly tied up in sacks, with three angry trolls (and two with burns and bashes to remember) sitting by them, arguing whether they should roast them slowly, or mince them fine and boil them, or just sit on them one by one and squash them into jelly: and Bilbo up in a bush, with his clothes and his skin torn, not daring to move for fear they should hear him....

......It was just then that Gandalf came back. But no one saw him. The trolls had just decided to roast the dwarves now and eat them later---that was Bert's idea, and after a lot of argument they had all agreed to it.
..."No good roasting 'em now, it'd take all night," said a voice. Bert thought it was William's.
..."Don't start the argument all over again, Bill," he said, "or it will take all night."
..."Who's a-arguing?" said William, who thought it was Bert that had spoken.
..."You are," said Bert.
..."You're a liar," said William; and so the argument began all over again. In the end they decided to mince them fine and boil them...
..."...No good boiling 'em! We ain't got no water, and it's a long way to the well and all," said a voice. Bert and William thought it was Tom's....

......And so the argument began all over again, and went on hotter than ever, until at last they decided to sit on the sacks one by one and squash them, and boil them next time.
..."Who shall we sit on first?" said the voice....

..."...Now stop it!" said Tom and Bert together. "The night's getting' on, and dawn comes early. Let's get on with it!"
..."Dawn take you all, and be stone to you!" said a voice that sounded like William's. But it wasn't. For just at that moment the light came over the hill, and there was a mighty twitter in the branches. William never spoke for he stood turned to stone as he stooped; and Bert and Tom were stuck like rocks as they looked at him. And there they stand to this day all alone, unless the birds perch on them; for trolls... ...must be underground before dawn, or they go back to the stuff of the mountains they are made of, and never move again....
..."...Excellent!" said Gandalf, as he stepped from behind a tree, and helped Bilbo to climb down out of a thornbush. Then Bilbo understood. It was the wizard's voice that had kept the trolls bickering and quarrelling, until the light came and made an end of them....

......They searched about, and soon found the marks of trolls' stony boots going away through the trees. They followed the tracks up the hill, until hidden by bushes they came on a big door of stone leading to a cave.... ...among an untidy litter of plunder, of all sorts from brass buttons to pots full of gold coins standing in a corner. There were lots of clothes, too, hanging on the walls—too small for trolls, I am afraid they belonged to victims—and among them were several swords of various makes, shapes, and sizes. Two caught their eyes particularly, because of their beautiful scabbards and jewelled hilts.
...Gandalf and Thorin each took one of these; and Bilbo took a knife in a leather sheath. It would have made only a tiny pocket-knife for a troll, but it was as good as a short sword for the hobbit.
..."These look like good blades," said the wizard, half drawing them and looking at them curiously. "They were not made by any troll, nor by any smith among men in these parts and days; but when we can read the runes on them, we shall know more about them.""



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grammaboodawg
Immortal


May 31, 11:20am

Post #43 of 49 (1673 views)
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It's time for some BS! [In reply to] Can't Post

A Book Spoiler to honour the fallen in battle... for a moment of Tolkien-zen.

From The Riders Of Rohan: The Two Towers


..."At last as the afternoon was waning they came to the eaves of the forest, and in an open glade among the first trees they found the place of the great burning: the ashes were still hot and smoking. Beside it was a great pile of helms and mail, cloven shields, and broken swords, bows and darts and other gear of war... ...not far from the river, where it came streaming out from the edge of the wood, there was a mound. It was newly raised: the raw earth was covered with... ...turves: about it were planted fifteen spears.
...Aragorn and his companions searched far and wide about the field of battle, but the light faded and evening soon drew down, dim and misty. By nightfall they had discovered no trace of Merry and Pippin.

...'We can do no more,' said Gimli sadly. 'We have been set many riddles since we came to Tol Brandir, but this is the hardest to unravel. I would guess that the burned bones of the hobbits are now mingled with the Orcs'. It will be hard news for Frodo, if he lives to hear it; and hard too for the old hobbit who waits in Rivendell. Elrond was against their coming.'
...'But Gandalf was not,' said Legolas.
...'But Gandalf chose to come himself, and he was the first to be lost.... ...His foresight failed him.'
...'The counsel of Gandalf was not founded on foreknowledge of safety, for himself or for others,' said Aragorn. 'There are some things that it is better to begin than to refuse, even though the end may be dark.'"



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CuriousG
Half-elven


May 31, 10:48pm

Post #44 of 49 (1628 views)
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That's a good quote from Aragorn, summing up the whole book [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
'There are some things that it is better to begin than to refuse, even though the end may be dark.'


Not only Frodo's journey, but Gandalf's fall in Moria, Aragorn's upcoming trip to The Paths of the Dead, and even the fate of Arwen.


Cirashala
Tol Eressea


Jun 1, 3:47pm

Post #45 of 49 (1562 views)
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What a fantastic quote [In reply to] Can't Post

I love it so much- it, along with Gandalf's conversation with Frodo in Moria, are by far my most favorite moments in the book and in the films Smile

My writing and novels:

My Hobbit Fanfiction

My historical novel print and kindle version

My historical novels ebook version compatible with all ereaders

You can also find my novel at most major book retailers online (and for those outside the US who prefer a print book, you can find the print version at Book Depository). Search "Amazing Grace Amanda Longpre'" to find it.

Happy reading everyone!


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Jun 1, 4:41pm

Post #46 of 49 (1559 views)
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So true [In reply to] Can't Post

...and the fate of the Elves. Galadriel says it to Frodo when speaking about Celeborn; "together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat."

It's a great rule to live by. Especially for things your heart and mind won't let rest.



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CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 1, 4:50pm

Post #47 of 49 (1557 views)
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Much agreement [In reply to] Can't Post

Galadriel certainly sounds sad when she says she and her husband have "fought the long defeat," but she never shows bitterness or regret. She remains firm in her convictions, which is pretty admirable when you're not racking up lots of winning points.


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Jun 1, 5:04pm

Post #48 of 49 (1555 views)
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True.... Well Said! [In reply to] Can't Post

Winning doesn't always mean finishing as you'd wish or hope. To never try or live that part of your life because you knew what the outcome would be is to cheat your own destiny, imho. :) Celeborn and she win just because of what you've said... and their lives are the richer for it... as well as the lives of all they've touched (people and places).



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cats16
Valinor


Jun 1, 5:31pm

Post #49 of 49 (1551 views)
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Well put. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Join us every weekend in the Hobbit movie forum for this week's CHOW (Chapter of the Week) discussion!



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