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Cirashala
Valinor
May 24 2019, 11:22pm
Post #1 of 23
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Let's say that Bilbo didn't/couldn't go home
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After the BO5A (filmverse) for whatever reason. He stayed, but Dain didn't forgive him for the betrayal with the Arkenstone (movie Dain was less reasonable than Thorin). Dain made peace with Bard as a trade partner and compensated the Laketowners accordingly, since Thorin had given his word to them and Dain would honor it, since his main gripe at the Erebor gate was with Thranduil and the elves (temporarily set aside for the battle, but still not exactly friends afterward).
Do you think that, given the desperate need Bard had, and the fact that Erebor was vital to the Laketown survivors' survival (that's a tongue-twister!) Bard would have been willing to take Bilbo in? Or would he have turned him away instead of risking Dain's wrath and told him to stay with the elves? That whole "for the good of my people" bit...
And do you think that Dain would have thrown a fit about Bilbo being allowed to live in Dale after the betrayal? If Dain had threatened to cut off economic ties (or deny Thorin's promised gold if the "traitor" remained in Dale), would Bard have had to succumb to the demands rather than risking his people's safety and/or survival for the sake of one hobbit?
I think Bard would have taken him in, BUT...he's no longer a lone ranger, so to speak- he's now responsible for ALL the former Laketowners. He certainly wasn't willing to mess with Thranduil with the dwarves after their escape-not until Balin offered him too much coin to refuse. He needed the money to care for his children. So if he needs the money from Erebor to care for his people, and the only stipulation was that "the betrayer Bilbo Baggins" was not to be permitted to reside in Dale, do you think he would have been forced to turn him away to care for his own? And would he have done so?
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CuriousG
Half-elven
May 25 2019, 3:45pm
Post #2 of 23
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Thanks for the what-if scenario!
I guess my own perception is that Bard is more politically calculating and less likely to take Bilbo in. I suppose I could see a scenario where he initially shelters Bilbo, then Dain sends him an ultimatum to rid himself of that darned hobbit, and Bard complies, needing the trade money from Erebor to rebuild Dale (as well as Dwarven labor), and reasoning that Bilbo came from somewhere else, so he can just go back there, wherever it is. It's not like he'd be exiling a Laketowner away from the only home they'd ever known. Bilbo was just a foreign traveler.
What I wonder is if, by the same token, Thranduil would shelter Bilbo just to flip his nose at Dain?
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Cirashala
Valinor
May 25 2019, 5:13pm
Post #5 of 23
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Can you imagine how the scenario would be playing out in Thranduil's mind?
Hmm...if I take you in, Dain is going to be utterly furious, levitate from his hoity-toity throne and spontaneously combust...He slowly smiles, relishing in the thought, before realizing that everyone in his court, including the aforementioned hobbit, is staring at him in confusion. He looks down at the nervous hobbit with a huge grin.
"Sure, you can live here! And guard-be sure to deliver the news to Dain...personally." Take that, you stupid dwarfling! That's what you get for calling me an elvish princess!
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CuriousG
Half-elven
May 29 2019, 2:00pm
Post #6 of 23
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To be fair, Thranduil did look like a princess
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So I'm not sure whose side I'm on. 
But yeah, I think that Thranduil would love to get even that way. It's pretty real-world too, like when Russia sheltered Ed Snowden just to make the US mad. That's politics.
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Cirashala
Valinor
May 29 2019, 5:37pm
Post #7 of 23
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but come on- those eyebrows? I can see the longer hair, but I don't think Thranduil looked exactly like a princess...but man did that comment make him mad lol!
You see him smirking confidently at Dain's commentary, but the second the dwarf's back was turned...if looks could kill, Dain would have been fossilized! Thranduil was PISSED.
To be fair, I think I'd be a bit irked too if I was a tall, proud elven king and was called a princess to my face in front of my entire army...
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(This post was edited by Cirashala on May 29 2019, 5:38pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 29 2019, 8:29pm
Post #8 of 23
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Even given that this is the film universe...
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…I do find it hard to imagine that Bilbo would not or could not go home unless Gandalf was unable to accompany him.
We don't really know that Dain's attitude towards Thranduil and his folk was essentially unchanged after the BotFA. Certainly he had some reason to come to respect the battle-prowess of the Elves, though I can see how the cultural divide between the two cultures might still create some friction.
I do see Bilbo as likely to have wintered as a guest of the Wood-elves, if not with Beorn as in the book. I still think that he would have returned to Bag End, but without Gandalf he might have had to wait until he could arrange an escort (perhaps one of the companions of Thorin, returning to the Blue Mountains to collect his family). I'm sure that King Bard would have been willing to help him out, including providing room and board until such travel arrangements could be made. If Dain could be stubborn then so too could Bard.
"I reject your reality and substitute my own." - Adam Savage
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Cirashala
Valinor
May 29 2019, 8:49pm
Post #9 of 23
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I have no doubt that Bilbo would have found some way to go home, even if he had to go back home with nothing but some provisions and a map so he could figure out where the heck he was going. He's too much of a hobbit not to.
My scenario was simply based on a "what if he couldn't", as in it was impossible for him to go home for whatever reason. In that scenario, I was curious as to what Bard would do, since his people were facing a long (and given the northerly location, no doubt a brutal) winter very much ill-equipped and ill-provisioned, and the only real source of gold to be had to buy supplies was from Erebor and the recompense due them.
And THAT was wholly dependent on Dain being willing to give it to him, because he certainly could not have entered the mountain and taken it himself without making the dwarves a leeeddddddllllle bit cranky.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 29 2019, 9:54pm
Post #10 of 23
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…I don't see Dain withholding from Bard his fair share of the treasure over the housing of Bilbo Baggins. He might not be quite as fair-minded as the Dain Ironfoot of the book, but he is revealed to be more reasonable at the end then we are first led to expect.
"I reject your reality and substitute my own." - Adam Savage
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 29 2019, 10:20pm
Post #12 of 23
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We largely have to read between the lines.
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Dain does cooperate with Thranduil and Bard once the Orcs are revealed. I presume he honors the agreement between Thorin and the Men of the Lake as in the book, though I'm not sure this is made clear even in the extended edition of BotFA. Granted, his film character is all over the place, so it's hard to make many definitive statements about him. I acknowledge that I might be giving film-Dain more credit than he merits.
"I reject your reality and substitute my own." - Adam Savage
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on May 29 2019, 10:24pm)
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Cirashala
Valinor
May 30 2019, 12:23am
Post #13 of 23
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I do wish that Jackson had shown the reconciliation
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We do know that the Men of the Lake honored what is presumably Thorin's body being returned to Erebor, and it is implied that everyone was just tired and worn out at this point and went home to lick their wounds.
But there was nothing in the films about the reconciliations/reparations, etc, and I dearly would have liked to see that-even if the critics balked at the "too many endings" bit again.
My writing and novels:
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My historical novel print and kindle version
My historical novels ebook version compatible with all ereaders
You can also find my novel at most major book retailers online (and for those outside the US who prefer a print book, you can find the print version at Book Depository). Search "Amazing Grace Amanda Longpre'" to find it.
Happy reading everyone!
(This post was edited by Cirashala on May 30 2019, 12:24am)
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Darkstone
Immortal
May 30 2019, 4:02am
Post #14 of 23
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The Lakemen said that there was a new terror abroad, a ghost that ate potatoes. It climbed trees to find apples; it crept into holes to find mushrooms; it slipped through windows to find seed-cakes.
-Barely Started Tales
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Character is what we do on the internet when we think no one knows who we are.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
May 30 2019, 1:25pm
Post #16 of 23
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Shouldn't there be a warning system for posts? Darkstone's just gave me nightmares.
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Especially the potato ghost.
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sevilodorf
Tol Eressea
May 31 2019, 1:30pm
Post #17 of 23
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Shades of Charlie Brown's Potato Ghost//
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Fourth Age Adventures at the Inn of the Burping Troll http://burpingtroll.com
Home of TheOneRing.net Best FanFic stories of 2005 and 2006 "The Last Grey Ship" and "Ashes, East Wind, Hope That Rises" by Erin Rua
(Found in Mathoms, LOTR Tales Untold)
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jun 1 2019, 2:18pm
Post #18 of 23
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******************************************
Character is what we do on the internet when we think no one knows who we are.
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sevilodorf
Tol Eressea
Jun 1 2019, 10:12pm
Post #19 of 23
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You must admit it has appeal//
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Fourth Age Adventures at the Inn of the Burping Troll http://burpingtroll.com
Home of TheOneRing.net Best FanFic stories of 2005 and 2006 "The Last Grey Ship" and "Ashes, East Wind, Hope That Rises" by Erin Rua
(Found in Mathoms, LOTR Tales Untold)
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Annael
Immortal
Jun 5 2019, 4:00pm
Post #20 of 23
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I'm never going to think of Bilbo in the same way again.
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Who KNOWS what he got up to in the Shire, all those years?
Lobelia's complaints that someone kept pinching her were dismissed out of hand by everyone who knew her, but the bruises were real . . .
I am a dreamer of words, of written words. I think I am reading; a word stops me. I leave the page. The syllables of the words begin to move around … The words take on other meanings as if they had the right to be young.
-- Gaston Bachelard
* * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
my blog: https://jodybower.com/myths-archetypes-in-film/
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jun 7 2019, 11:48pm
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Rises from the most pretentious potato patch every Beltaine. /
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******************************************
Character is what we do on the internet when we think no one knows who we are.
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Jun 7 2019, 11:50pm)
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Omnigeek
Lorien
Feb 14 2020, 3:37pm
Post #23 of 23
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Bear in mind Dain had limited info when he first appears
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Keeping to the movie universe, Dain had the barest of information when he shows up:
- Longbeards and the Elves appear to have had some kind of falling out over gems long ago
- Thranduil did not help Thror after Smaug's devastation and the Longbeard retreat
- 13 dwarves of the Longbeard clan are besieged by 2 armies outside the Lonely Mountain
- Thranduil is a prickly individual (and dresses in long elegant robes)
We don't know if Dain has ever seen Thranduil fight.
Of course Dain is going to be a pissy obstinate obnoxious character with Thranduil when he first gets to the footsteps of Erebor with his reinforcements from the Iron Hills.
(This post was edited by Omnigeek on Feb 14 2020, 3:45pm)
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Wish we had more of these "quiet moments" in the films. 
