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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


May 15, 5:30pm

Post #51 of 70 (526 views)
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Another reason to hope the old TORN forums can be restored... [In reply to] Can't Post

...is that I have found that "official" Tolkien scholarship is slowly catching up and "legitimizing" some ideas I initially encountered in that forum. It would be nice to be able to show those academics how their new work augments what was done before here.

So for example, this weekend at the Kalamazoo conference, in a session of papers about The Fall of Gondolin, Andrew Higgins analyzed the names and history of four elves, including Glorfindel, and John Holmes looked to medieval roots of some incidents in Tolkien's story, including the story of Finn and Hengest. During the Q&A, I chimed in to note how you had previously brought those two elements together -- but you did so in a post on the old forums. There's a link to that post here, but now it leads nowhere.


Treachery, treachery I fear; treachery of that miserable creature.

But so it must be. Let us remember that a traitor may betray himself and do good that he does not intend.


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Discuss Tolkien's life and works in the Reading Room!
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How to find old Reading Room discussions.


squire
Half-elven


May 15, 6:03pm

Post #52 of 70 (524 views)
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My apologies! [In reply to] Can't Post

I've probably been seeing too many stories like this one.
My Precious—Ancient Ring That Inspired Tolkien’s The Hobbit Found In The U.K.
The ring that inspired Tolkien in writing the trilogy of ‘The Lord of the Rings’ and ‘The Hobbit’, exists and has behind its steps a mysterious story full of curses dating from Roman times.

I apologize for mistaking you for any number of Tolkien fans who might fall prey to such stuff!



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


Eruonen
Valinor


May 16, 1:10am

Post #53 of 70 (471 views)
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Rex Reed always has a way with words [In reply to] Can't Post

https://observer.com/...olas-hoult-rex-reed/

‘Tolkien’ Is Another Ho-Hum Biopic With the Tempo of a Funeral Dirge
By Rex Reed •

"....Beautifully photographed in the style of varnished floors and Minwaxed furniture, ....."


Eruonen
Valinor


May 16, 1:21am

Post #54 of 70 (467 views)
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Would love to see those old posts again, especially during the [In reply to] Can't Post

early years of LOTR speculation, Spy Shots, etc. It would be fun to find your first post and the date. I know I was a member from fairly early on during the casting speculation period. I recall the announcement that "Stewart Townsend Is Aragorn!"

And then of course history repeated with The Hobbit films.

Now, we have the early days of TV speculation.


(This post was edited by Eruonen on May 16, 1:24am)


mae govannen
Tol Eressea


May 16, 3:39am

Post #55 of 70 (451 views)
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Smiling thanks, Dernwyn! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)


Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea


Fri, 10:42pm

Post #56 of 70 (358 views)
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That's a bit like saying... [In reply to] Can't Post

...the more you're versed in Tolkien's novels, the less you will like the film adaptations, no? And yet, we know that not to be true in a great many cases.

I'd say the divide amongst Tolkien fans is likely between those who expect films about real people to be documentaries and those who are fine with dramatic licence being taken.

Having read Carpenter, and seen more than a couple Tolkien documentaries, I can say I'm in the latter category.

"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that." - Viggo Mortensen


Solicitr
Lorien

Sat, 3:54pm

Post #57 of 70 (300 views)
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It's [In reply to] Can't Post

not just an issue with dramatic license, rearranging facts or inventing new "facts" to serve the narrative. Real life isn't a novel and doesn't have a plot, so it needs some restructuring.

But one does expect the film to give us the real person's personality, character, beliefs or something, even while playing fast and loose with factual accuracy. Shadowlands has been mentioned; one could add Lawrence of Arabia, Darkest Hour, Hamilton, A Beautiful Mind and so on.

This movie, at least judging by reviews, tells us almost nothing about Tolkien, except for ticking the bare boxes of his youth while falsifying them for (cliched) dramatic effect (e.g. King Edward's was not a posh school; it was very middle-class and Tolkien wasn't bullied by alleged toffs; Tolkien's actual war service was virtually nothing like the movie portrayal; what happened to his work on the Dictionary?) and certainly nothing of the man who wrote his Letters --and apparently doesn't want the audience to know he wrote anything before 1930!


Cirashala
Tol Eressea


Sat, 5:07pm

Post #58 of 70 (294 views)
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The writing pre-1930 [In reply to] Can't Post

may have been omitted due to rights regarding the Silmarillion...most of the writing done early on was for the Sil/legendarium, IIRC and they may have had to skirt it for that reason.

That being said, I do agree with some of the other omissions you list, namely the influence his faith had on the legendarium (which, IMO, was CRITICAL to the way ME was constructed and the very basic essence of the core of ME and the world's "rules" it held). You omit his faith, and you omit much of what makes ME what it is, and a significant portion of the writing process.

I liked the film a lot- but I really wish they would have introduced his faith (and its influence on his life and works) beyond "She's not even Catholic" which was about the only reference to faith that was mentioned in the film.

My writing and novels:

My Hobbit Fanfiction

My historical novel print and kindle version

My historical novels ebook version compatible with all ereaders

You can also find my novel at most major book retailers online (and for those outside the US who prefer a print book, you can find the print version at Book Depository). Search "Amazing Grace Amanda Longpre'" to find it.

Happy reading everyone!


Solicitr
Lorien

Sat, 5:58pm

Post #59 of 70 (287 views)
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Well, [In reply to] Can't Post

copyright issues wouldn't have prevented them showing him writing something, saying he was writing a History of the Elves or a Mythology for England or something.


Cirashala
Tol Eressea


Sat, 8:16pm

Post #60 of 70 (276 views)
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True [In reply to] Can't Post

Other than developing and speaking (while drunk) his own language, and writing the infamous "In a hole in the ground..." line, they didn't really delve much into the actual stories themselves, which I am a little annoyed with too.

BUT- the visuals you see of the dragon, the balrog, Sauron, etc were very subtly woven into the film in a brilliant way, which I thought was very well done and gave us insights into Tolkien's mind (as well as the runes pinned to his board, and the various snippets of drawings too). In his mind, Tolkien would have had no need to tell the audience he was writing a mythology for England (though a line saying England needed one would be nice), because he didn't have to tell HIMSELF that he was doing so- and if we see into his mind, we see the images, the thoughts, hear the language- but we won't hear him say he's writing a history of elves or England's mythology because he already knew that.

We see ME in his mind through the film, though he mentions stories to the TCBS and the languages to Edith and the professor, so the stories that are beginning to take shape in his mind are told to us via images, not words- not until he begins to tell his children the story, and we see him pen the first sentence of his legacy.

It is a clever way to present the inner workings of the mind of an unparalleled genius for sure.

My writing and novels:

My Hobbit Fanfiction

My historical novel print and kindle version

My historical novels ebook version compatible with all ereaders

You can also find my novel at most major book retailers online (and for those outside the US who prefer a print book, you can find the print version at Book Depository). Search "Amazing Grace Amanda Longpre'" to find it.

Happy reading everyone!


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Sun, 6:22am

Post #61 of 70 (268 views)
Shortcut
Maybe the filmmakers should have had him cross paths with E.M. Forster. [In reply to] Can't Post

Forster in Howards End (1910):


Quote
Up the avenue Margaret strolled slowly, stopping to watch the sky that gleamed through the upper branches of the chestnuts, or to finger the little horseshoes on the lower branches. Why has not England a great mythology? Our folklore has never advanced beyond daintiness, and the greater melodies about our country-side have all issued through the pipes of Greece. Deep and true as the native imagination can be, it seems to have failed here. It has stopped with the witches and the fairies. It cannot vivify one fraction of a summer field, or give names to half a dozen stars. England still waits for the supreme moment of her literature--for the great poet who shall voice her, or, better still, for the thousand little poets whose voices shall pass into our common talk.


Emphasis added. I believe it was Verlyn Flieger who first pointed out the similiarity between what Forster wrote here and what Tolkien wrote in his now-famous 1951 letter to MIlton Waldman.


Treachery, treachery I fear; treachery of that miserable creature.

But so it must be. Let us remember that a traitor may betray himself and do good that he does not intend.


-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Discuss Tolkien's life and works in the Reading Room!
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
How to find old Reading Room discussions.


mae govannen
Tol Eressea


Sun, 2:00pm

Post #62 of 70 (232 views)
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Great quote! I suppose [In reply to] Can't Post

Forster never completed what he had said here with some later congratulations to 'the one great poet' who did 'voice her', and did so in such a beautiful way that millions of readers are still celebrating it?

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Sun, 3:37pm

Post #63 of 70 (227 views)
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At least one top Tolkien scholar appears to like it quite a bit, despite the inaccuracies [In reply to] Can't Post

Dmitra Fima, who by any objective standards should be included in any list of the very top Tolkien scholars, wrote in her blog:

"I found myself in split personality mode while watching the film. There were moments when I poked my poor husband next to me and whispered: “this isn’t right!”. And yet, there were moments when I was entertained, and charmed, and even moved to tears." Unfortunately, her full review published in TLS is subscription-protected, but it appears to have a similar tone.

http://dimitrafimi.com/...oski-biopic-tolkien/

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Mon, 12:40am

Post #64 of 70 (194 views)
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There's more about the film [In reply to] Can't Post

The current Newsweek has a Special Edition with an article about "Tolkien" and the Amazon Series. There's a write-up on the magazine on the homepage.
Newsweek’s Special Edition: J.R.R. Tolkien – The Genius Behind Middle-earth



sample

We have been there and back again.


TIME Google Calendar


mae govannen
Tol Eressea


Mon, 10:44am

Post #65 of 70 (139 views)
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The link to Dimitra Fimi's article [In reply to] Can't Post

even if it didn't give access to it, at least made me discover her website and overall work about Tolkien, which I hadn't known of until now. It finally even led me on YouTube to the famous BBC 1968 documentary 'Tolkien in Oxford', which I had only heard of, and did relish watching at last.

So you have all my thanks for this!...

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Mon, 11:57am

Post #66 of 70 (131 views)
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Thank you for letting us know about this, gramma! [In reply to] Can't Post

It looks great - I'll keep an eye out for it whilst shopping! Cool


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I desired dragons with a profound desire"


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Mon, 1:44pm

Post #67 of 70 (115 views)
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I'm so glad! [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm glad you got to watch the documentary, which I agree is great, and to get exposed a little to Dr. Fimi's work. Her book Tolkien, Race and Cultural History is one of the best books in recent Tolkien scholarship, in my opinion. And if you have any interest in Tolkien's obsession with language, A Secret Vice: Tolkien on Invented Languages, (which she edited along with Dr. Andrew HIggins), is a must.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


mae govannen
Tol Eressea


Mon, 2:46pm

Post #68 of 70 (106 views)
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Exactly what I was about to say to gramma!... [In reply to] Can't Post

I read the subject of your post, and thought with astonishment:
'What?!? Did I already write that post and I didn't remember doing it?!?...'

And then I saw your name, and understood: you had just beaten me to it, while I had been reading that other post of hers about the magazine, that she had given the link to, here!...Really funny how it all happened!!! Laugh

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)

(This post was edited by mae govannen on Mon, 2:47pm)


mae govannen
Tol Eressea


Mon, 3:06pm

Post #69 of 70 (102 views)
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And Edith did convert to Catholicism [In reply to] Can't Post

when the time at last came for them to get married...
I seem to remember there are quite a few other letters of his emphasizing the importance of Catholicism to him, and the too often uncomfortable position he felt himself being in at Oxford because of his Catholicism in the midst of a very predominantly non-Catholic England, but I can't add any right now, not having the book with me.

So thank you for those quotes you were able to post! It was so important for him indeed.

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)

(This post was edited by mae govannen on Mon, 3:08pm)


mae govannen
Tol Eressea


Mon, 3:41pm

Post #70 of 70 (91 views)
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Thanks for the links to this excellent article! [In reply to] Can't Post

I myself saw quite evidently the very same deep reasons in JRRT in 1975, as soon as I came to know of his tart reply about the two rings being the same. He had done his best to show how different his whole Eru context was, and with it the very essence of the Supreme Reality ruling his world, that then was wise and loving, because of Eru 's Will above all the demiurges.

That changes indeed everything, even more than the author of this article has been willing to say it. I guess I'll have to add to it a few paragraphs of my own, to stress that difference as fully as it needs to be stressed for expressing Tolkien's own feelings.

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)

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