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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Middle-earth TV Series Discussion:
Sharon Tal Yguado Exits As Amazon Studios Head Of Genre Drama
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Archestratie
Rivendell

May 10, 12:05pm

Post #26 of 35 (613 views)
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Well... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Tauriel was still an Action Grrl, which is the wrong way to go in a fantasy/cod-medieval context. You aren't really creating female characters by generating males-with-boobs!

What Tolkien had to say about women fighting was no different from the historical situation among, say, the Germanic tribes: women were *not* part of the warband, but if the enemy broke through to the village/camp/wagons then they would go down fighting rather than succumb meekly to slavery. (There's a classic example in Leif's Saga). Eowyn, of course, was a remarkable exception, and noted as such.

In the age of muscle power (that is, 99.9% of human history), gender roles didn't arise because Evil Patriarchy, but because (life ain't fair) men really are on the whole bigger and stronger. You will look in vain for a premodern society which included women in its professional warrior caste,* and please don't use the "it's fantasy so anything goes" line. Moby-Dick is in its way a fantasy as well, but I don't think we should give the Pequod a half-female crew; nor can I see having Knightesses of the Round Table.

*Yes, that includes the Vikings.


She was also a healer and compassionate and curious. Legolas was uni-dimensional, not Taurial.


CuriousG
Half-elven


May 10, 3:12pm

Post #27 of 35 (593 views)
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Good point, since that raises the question of authenticity [In reply to] Can't Post

In sci-fi, you can create an all-female future if you want, where men are kept in stasis and only let out for breeding purposes, and women are the leaders, followers, warriors, healers, cannon fodder, etc. No one can say it's "wrong" because it's just another possible future.

Medieval-themed fantasies can't be that experimental since anyone who knows history knows it was a man's world with exceptions. And fantasy-lovers usually yearn for some version of that society. For example, while I have no desire to live under a monarchy, I would have been disappointed if every realm in Middle-earth were a democracy.

>>>"Gandalf, will Rohan go to war with Saruman?"
>>>"Well, the vote is still in the Senate of Rohan, and it's 50-50 for now, and the High Court of Edoras might rule a war decree illegal. And the lower house of the Assembly of Orthanc is opposed to to war, so it's not at all clear on either side."

Right or wrong, we want bold rulers taking decisive actions, not committees and procedures.


Solicitr
Lorien

May 10, 6:47pm

Post #28 of 35 (563 views)
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Tolkien [In reply to] Can't Post

goes on, though, to observe that Elf-women tended to be drawn more to the healing arts, and moreover the Elves believed that being a killer diminished one's capacity to heal, so that rarely did the same Elf follow both paths (except in extremis).

I'm not sure how this applies to Aragorn. I guess with Men it was different. (It's interesting that in the Last Alliance Elrond the master leech was a herald, i.e. a noncombatant).


InTheChair
Lorien

May 10, 7:44pm

Post #29 of 35 (551 views)
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Probably two different things [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Law and Customs of the Eldar suggests that while elf women fighting wasn't exactly the norm, it wasn't all that uncommon either.


Well, the Laws and customs say that, the virtue of the women as healers, was due to them abstaining from hunting or war rather than to anything to do with their womanhood, suggesting that it probably was fairly uncommon for them to be fighters or warriors, and then the Laws and Customs indicate only at need when in dire straits or in desperate defence did they fight valiantly.

Naturally there would have been exceptions to this, just as with Eowyn for the Rohirrim, although they would have been uncommon.


Quote
I didn't have a completely egalitarian military in mind - just a minority of women appearing here and there as soldiers and perhaps one or two officer characters, showing in practice what he suggests in theory.


You will get it for certain. I think though that it is misrepresenting Tolkien that he suggested in theory that women appeared as soldiers or officers. Rather the opposite he suggest that they rarely or never appeared as such but fought only in defence out of necessity. There is however no point for Amazon to follow the indications of this particular point of view which was never even published by Tolkien. They will give us female soldiers and officers. They may even reference these texts if they are allowed, but their motivations are probably the opposite of Tolkiens. He wanted to represent a heroic age (whatever that means?), while it would be in Amazons best interest to present a world with more inclusive and modern values.


kzer_za
Lorien

May 10, 8:49pm

Post #30 of 35 (538 views)
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I admit "Not all that uncommon" was probably an overstatement on my part [In reply to] Can't Post

"Uncommon but not unheard of" was what I should have said. Tolkien repeatedly says in this section that the male/female trends he's describing were not set in stone and there were elves who did not follow them. While we don't have any named female fighters (except maybe Galadriel in one version, though I'll need to check UT again later), I would expect it to happen somewhat more often than Eowyn and with less social barriers, and immortality means the exceptions stay around.

We also have the People of Haleth. Of course they aren't elves and I wouldn't expect them to be worked into the show in any large scale, but it's another instance of women fighting as something happened at times, though not the norm.


(This post was edited by kzer_za on May 10, 8:53pm)


Solicitr
Lorien

May 10, 9:41pm

Post #31 of 35 (526 views)
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Although, [In reply to] Can't Post

again, in Haleth's case it was a last-desperate-defense scenario. Some generations later, in Turin's time, it's the men (who aren't lame) who are the warriors.


uncle Iorlas
Rivendell


May 14, 2:28pm

Post #32 of 35 (356 views)
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Startling news [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't know of course what the strain may have been between them or what this means about the direction of things. I do note that Sharon was the one saying it likely wouldn't be possible to shoot the trilogy proper; I wonder if that point of view exits with her? There have been signs anyway that the rights situation now is not what I was led to understand it was a year ago.


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Mon, 9:43pm

Post #33 of 35 (88 views)
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Who? [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh my gosh, Iíve become a troll!


CuriousG
Half-elven


Mon, 10:13pm

Post #34 of 35 (78 views)
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Nice to see you, Sir Dennis, trolling or not. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


SirDennisC
Half-elven


12:54pm

Post #35 of 35 (25 views)
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Likewise- [In reply to] Can't Post

Hopefully with GoT laid to rest the ME series will get more attention.

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