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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
After watching GoT last episode (Spoiler Alert)!

PredatoR
Bree


May 14, 8:42am

Post #1 of 20 (8376 views)
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After watching GoT last episode (Spoiler Alert)! Can't Post

After watching the last episode of GoT, I wished that P.J. didnt cut the Gore and more intensive scene of Lake Town when Smaug attacked. We have seen some great scenes at extras.

Also the deleted scene where Dwarves passed through town of Dale and saw some burned people's ashes and burned city was awesome. I wish it was in the film too...


Chen G.
Rohan

May 14, 6:06pm

Post #2 of 20 (8291 views)
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It could have been [In reply to] Can't Post

But it wouldn't fit in terms of pace. I think the sequence is visceral enough.

As for the Dwarves passing through Dale: I completely understand why it was cut, although I love the beat of Bifur picking up the doll from the Prologue.


Noria
Gondor

May 14, 6:38pm

Post #3 of 20 (8282 views)
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Not me, [In reply to] Can't Post

I havenít seen GoT but for me the destruction of Laketown was excellent as it was. I had no need to see more people burning to death. Sometimes less is more.

PJ is not shy about gore but made the right call there.

I too wish the Dwarves in ruined Dale scene had been included in the EE.


Chen G.
Rohan

May 14, 7:25pm

Post #4 of 20 (8273 views)
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Not shy? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
PJ is not shy about gore but made the right call there.


Not shy?! We're talking about the man behind Bad Taste and Braindead here. He LOVES gore!

He's been very succesful at packing as much gore as he can into these PG-13 films. Stuff like the showdown with Lurtz is properly violent!

There's the mangled deer in The Desolation of Smaug, and that twitching Orc corpse nearly scored the film an R.


(This post was edited by Chen G. on May 14, 7:25pm)


Cirashala
Tol Eressea


May 14, 7:55pm

Post #5 of 20 (8265 views)
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Mangled deer? [In reply to] Can't Post

Where in the film was that? I don't recall seeing it...

My writing and novels:

My Hobbit Fanfiction

My historical novel print and kindle version

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You can also find my novel at most major book retailers online (and for those outside the US who prefer a print book, you can find the print version at Book Depository). Search "Amazing Grace Amanda Longpre'" to find it.

Happy reading everyone!


Chen G.
Rohan

May 14, 8:53pm

Post #6 of 20 (8258 views)
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Tauriel runs past it [In reply to] Can't Post

when she's chasing the Orcs, before Legolas confronts her. Its quite graphic stuff, which Jackson (very enjoyably) relishes in.

The deer's symbolic of the Woodland Realm.


(This post was edited by Chen G. on May 14, 8:54pm)


skyofcoffeebeans
Rivendell

May 14, 8:56pm

Post #7 of 20 (8257 views)
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In terms of cinematography... [In reply to] Can't Post

Game of Thrones has wiped the board with the Battle of the Five Armies, both with a battle in the snow and a dragon destroying a town / city.


Noria
Gondor

May 14, 9:00pm

Post #8 of 20 (8251 views)
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The ďnot shyĒ reference was a deliberate understatement. [In reply to] Can't Post

Iíve never seen them but I am aware of PJís early movies and his love of horror and gore.

IIRC, he also struggled to get BOTFA that all important PG rating, though isnít the EE edition R rated?

Iím not sorry that PJís propensity for gore was restrained in the cases of his LotR and Hobbit movies. Thatís not what these stories are about, unlike Bad Taste and Brain Dead.


Cirashala
Tol Eressea


May 14, 9:01pm

Post #9 of 20 (8249 views)
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Oh! Right. [In reply to] Can't Post

I remember now- the one the orcs killed and presumably ate.

I consider it symbolic of the difference between elves and orcs- that the elves when hunting wouldn't have just left the carcass there to rot, and that orcs had no regard whatsoever for the king and his property (as, since the lands were Thranduil's, he would be the one to grant permission to hunt in them and the orcs didn't ask for it).

Aka in a nutshell, you don't traipse across a king's lands willy-nilly, nor do you kill the king's meat, nor do you try to chase and kill the king's men or his prisoners.

In this scene, the orcs show a blatant disregard for Thranduil's authority as king over Mirkwood, and quintessentially gives him the finger in the process. I think this, highlighted by Tauriel's question "When did we allow evil to become stronger than us?" is what spurred Legolas to go with her, rather than return home.

Yeah, carrion can be quite graphic, but anyone who hunts will tell you that, of what all gore is present in Jackson's films (esp the EE's), that deer, while highly symbolic of the orcs' attitudes toward Thranduil and elves as a whole and important to the narrative, is pretty low on the severity/graphic list compared to the BO5A and other violent scenes.

My writing and novels:

My Hobbit Fanfiction

My historical novel print and kindle version

My historical novels ebook version compatible with all ereaders

You can also find my novel at most major book retailers online (and for those outside the US who prefer a print book, you can find the print version at Book Depository). Search "Amazing Grace Amanda Longpre'" to find it.

Happy reading everyone!


Chen G.
Rohan

May 14, 9:07pm

Post #10 of 20 (8251 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
IIRC, he also struggled to get BOTFA that all important PG rating, though isnít the EE edition R rated?

Iím not sorry that PJís propensity for gore was restrained in the cases of his LotR and Hobbit movies. Thatís not what these stories are about, unlike Bad Taste and Brain Dead.


He is on record from principal photography on The Lord of the Rings for wanting all extended cuts to be an R, trimming them down to just barely get a PG-13 for the theatrical release.

I like the levels of violence as is: it never feels like the films are holding back. Although something even more akin to Braveheart could be fun.

And yes, The Battle of the Five Armies extended is an R-rated film, although its nothing too bad, I always thought. The most gruesome change is actually predominantly a audio one: when Legolas stabs Bolg in the head, he tightens the stab and twists the blade, and the sound design is particularly nasty.


In Reply To
Yeah, carrion can be quite graphic, but anyone who hunts will tell you that, of what all gore is present in Jackson's films (esp the EE's), that deer, while highly symbolic of the orcs' attitudes toward Thranduil and elves as a whole and important to the narrative, is pretty low on the severity/graphic list compared to the BO5A and other violent scenes.


Actually, there's a rule of screenwriting which goes to say that you don't kill animals if you can help it. It happens with Bill the Pony where Peter conceded to Mark Ordesky to not only NOT kill the Pony but actually have a line that assures the audience that he will make it back.

Returning to the Braveheart example, everybody flinches more at the deaths of the horses in the Battle of Stirling more than they do the graphic deaths of people.


(This post was edited by Chen G. on May 14, 9:10pm)


Noria
Gondor

May 15, 12:42pm

Post #11 of 20 (8208 views)
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I too am fine with the level of violence in the EEs. [In reply to] Can't Post

My feeling is that battle scenes shouldn't be too antiseptic because people are being hurt and killed but neither should they be gratuitously graphic. I don't mind gore when it serves the story but don't love it for itself and dislike excess.

I gather that PJ's early movies are unabashedly splattery but that is part of their essence and even charm. Whether it was the constraints of the rating system or his own instincts (or Walsh and Boyens), I'm glad that the Tolkien movies have a different aesthetic.

Like all animal lovers, I too have that gut reaction of revulsion to seeing animals killed on screen. In particular, there is something so wrong about animals being killed in warfare, so it's hard to take even when it reflects reality. IIRC, Bakshi's Bill was taken by the Watcher in the Water. Horrible.

I watch The Walking Dead, which kills almost every animal that appears, usually gruesomely. One season had a semi-domesticated tiger, the pet and defender of one of the characters. It was ridiculous and impossible and detracted from the series, but I still shed a few tears when that CGI tiger met its horrible fate. Silly, but still....Smile


Chen G.
Rohan

May 15, 1:16pm

Post #12 of 20 (8203 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
My feeling is that battle scenes shouldn't be too antiseptic because people are being hurt and killed but neither should they be gratuitously graphic. I don't mind gore when it serves the story but don't love it for itself and dislike excess.


Would you have minded if one of the battles in the series was like The Battle of Stirling in terms of gore?


In Reply To
I gather that PJ's early movies are unabashedly splattery but that is part of their essence and even charm.


Its different because those films are horror comedies, and so the over-the-top gore is meant to be seen as gleefully comedic, which obviously isn't the point in these Tolkien films, although occasionally a bit of dark glee works, like when Thranduil beheads that Orc.

Jackson doesn't so much revel in gore: that's much more of a Sam Raimi or Mel Gibson thing. Jackson's ouvre is much more about everything that disgusting and gross: from unsightly faces shot in extreme close-ups, to insects (not only Shelob but also the bug-bit in King Kong) and gore.

Something like the Goblin-King, for instance, is just pure Peter Jackson. Even in his recent documentary (which is R-rated) he has macro-photography of lice, shots of trench-feet, shots of latrines and tales of bathroom mishaps on the western front, etcetra. Its just part of who he is.


(This post was edited by Chen G. on May 15, 1:18pm)


Hamfast Gamgee
Grey Havens

May 16, 7:27am

Post #13 of 20 (8144 views)
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Interesting fact [In reply to] Can't Post

But I have never seen any of Games of Thrones. Although I have seen Shakespear's war of the roses plays which it is apparently based upon.


Noria
Gondor

May 16, 7:49pm

Post #14 of 20 (8081 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post

I watched the first three seasons of GoT.but I only recall one big battle.

I have read all the SOIAF books up to this point despite their decreasing quality. I don't know if I'll read any more, in the unlikely event that GRRM ever completes the series.

I've never seen Braveheart.


Chen G.
Rohan

May 17, 9:21am

Post #15 of 20 (8017 views)
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You should watch Braveheart [In reply to] Can't Post

Its The Godfather to The Lord of the Rings' Goodfellas, and to Game of Thrones' The Sopranos.

Watching it, you can really see where so many shots, beats and action setpieces from The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit came from. Jackson even considered the actor behind the film's villain for Gandalf, and he wanted James Horner (who composed a beautiful score for Braveheart) to score The Lord of the Rings.

And ontop of that, its just a beautiful motion picture: its absolutely gorgeously photographed, and is immensly powerful as a piece of storytelling.

Its R-rated but by today's standards its really nothing special, especially compared to Game of Thrones. Its tonally very grim, though, but whatever jokes are in there are absolutely hillarious. Its just under three-hours long, so its not a particularly long watch, either, at least by the standards of Lord of the Rings fans.

And the mind-blowing thing is that it was somenone's second time directing a movie!


(This post was edited by Chen G. on May 17, 9:32am)


Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Rohan


May 18, 4:15pm

Post #16 of 20 (7860 views)
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I agree [In reply to] Can't Post

While I quite enjoyed the destruction of King's Landing in GOT, I actually never even considered the similarities to the burning of Laketown, and I don't think that there was really any need to make it more brutal - I mean, I could see why you would, to drive home the point of how desperate the Laketown refugees are after their city is destroyed. I could see where it would have served to illustrate that. But I thought PJ did a really good job with the destruction of Laketown - until you get to the bit where Smaug is walking across burning wooden buildings like he's light as a feather, and then Bard using his son as a slingshot.

"We are Kree"


Lio
Lorien


May 23, 12:59am

Post #17 of 20 (7691 views)
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Coincidentally, I just ran across this paragraph... [In reply to] Can't Post

...while reading Weta's Chronicles: The Art of War artbook for for The Battle of the Five Armies:
"There was a little more to the beginning of Smaug's attack on Lake-town that didn't make the final cut. We had him maliciously take out the landward end of the bridge leading back to the shore with his talons outstretched, cutting off the escape route for all the people, before sweeping back around in a spectacular shot to hover above, incinerating the survivors on the remaining portion. He even plucked up a large boat full of refugees, like an eagle scooping up a fish, ascended a little and then casually dropped everyone to their deaths. Smaug's methodical, homicidal intent reinforced what kind of character he was. Bard killing him therefore became something that the audience was anticipating."
I haven't watched GoT so I can't say if this even comes close to matching the violence, but it shows they did consider making it more intense. Although my guess is this scene was omitted due to time constraints rather than violence (it's unclear to what extent it was finished if at all).

Dwalin Balin Kili Fili Dori Nori Ori Oin Gloin Bifur Bofur Bombur Thorin

Orcs are mammals!

"Don't laugh at the Dwarves because they will mess you up." ó Dean O'Gorman (Fili)

Want to chat? AIM me at Yami Liokaiser! (Does anyone still use AIM?)


skyofcoffeebeans
Rivendell

May 23, 2:34pm

Post #18 of 20 (7677 views)
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I don't think time constraint was the issue... [In reply to] Can't Post

If you watch the animatics on the EE, they are considerably more intense than what we see in the movie.


PredatoR
Bree


May 23, 4:51pm

Post #19 of 20 (7660 views)
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You can watch it [In reply to] Can't Post

Here is the video which actually shows the incomplete footage: https://youtu.be/0iZb2LYKOM0?t=546
It is not as gore as GoT, but it is something to show more of a Smaug's personality.
It is not actually gore which I want. I just wish to see more footage at all for all LoTR and Hobbit series. Eagerly waiting for the 25th year edition for LoTR if ultimate cuts will ever see a daylight...


Lio
Lorien


May 26, 4:18pm

Post #20 of 20 (7322 views)
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Thanks for the video! [In reply to] Can't Post

It's nice to see the deleted scenes in once place, I recall seeing them them in the extended edition bonus features but I'd forgotten about some. There's much more that's been mentioned but never shown, and I hope they release it some day.

Dwalin Balin Kili Fili Dori Nori Ori Oin Gloin Bifur Bofur Bombur Thorin

Orcs are mammals!

"Don't laugh at the Dwarves because they will mess you up." ó Dean O'Gorman (Fili)

Want to chat? AIM me at Yami Liokaiser! (Does anyone still use AIM?)

 
 

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