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General opinion
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skyofcoffeebeans
Llednevir

May 7 2019, 7:41pm

Post #51 of 83 (6426 views)
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The realities of the scenario don't interest me [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm more interested in what their hypothetical films might have looked and felt like. As far as Antonioni goes, I haven't seen any of his body of work in the last decade or so, so it's hard to imagine what his film(s) would look likeľ though, yes, he wasn't known for blockbusters, but for existentialism, unusual pacing, a poetic feel, and a lack of interest in plot. All of those would make for an enigmatic version of LOTR.
Malick, I know, could nail the spirit of Tolkien's work, even if it's doubtful he could pull off the scale that Tolkien's book describes.


kzer_za
Neirol

May 7 2019, 10:08pm

Post #52 of 83 (6411 views)
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My favorite "Tolkien movie hypothetical" I've seen... [In reply to] Can't Post

Is Peter Lorre as Gollum. Wink


CuriousG
Nevle-flah


May 7 2019, 10:50pm

Post #53 of 83 (6399 views)
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But I want a Jar Jar Baggins to appear. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


CuriousG
Nevle-flah


May 7 2019, 10:51pm

Post #54 of 83 (6397 views)
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Ha ha--I can see that working. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Otaku-sempai
Latrommi


May 8 2019, 1:24am

Post #55 of 83 (6387 views)
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Willow [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
There were rumours that Geroge Lucas wanted to adapt Tolkien's works in the 70s. Given the impact it had on his script to Star Wars, and his treatments of the later films in that series (not to mention Willow!) I tent to believe that. Its no coincedence that all those Tolkien animated films came out roughly at that time.


While George Lucas did not direct Willow (that would be Ron Howard), the film was still his baby. I've always thought of it as The Hobbit Lite.

"I reject your reality and substitute my own." - Adam Savage


Chen G.
NahoR

May 8 2019, 6:51am

Post #56 of 83 (6364 views)
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Yeah [In reply to] Can't Post

He produced it and wrote the treatment. The influence of Tolkien is also evident on his original Star Wars, which also not too dissimilar to The Hobbit, as far as adventure stories go.

An earlier draft had a very close paraphrase of the "Good morning" exchange between Bilbo and Gandalf, which is fitting giving how much Ben Kenobi is modelled after Gandalf. The fact that the hero wields a glowing blue sword is also no coincedence.

Star Wars was, after all, a mixing together of all things nostalgic to George Lucas, who grew up right when Tolkien's popularity boomed in the states. I would say that along with Flash Gordon and The Hidden Fortresss (both of which Lucas also tried to make before going for an original story) Tolkien's works are probably the principal inspiration of that film and the resulting series. Its also telling that Lucas liked the Jackson films, and in fact aided their pre-production.

In his treatment to the sequel, you can still see this influence. When Yoda says of the cave that's what's in there is "only what you take with you" I got serious Lothlorien vibes, specifically, Mirror of Galadriel vibes.

And like I said, its no coincedence that Tolkien adaptations were coming out around that time: the Rankin/Bass cartoon that year, and Bakshi's Lord of the Rings the very next one (with Anthony Daniels, no less!), a radio adaptation, original fantasy heavily in debt to Tolkien like Dragonslayer (effects by Lucasfilm), not to mention Boorman's Excalibur, which cannibalized elements of his Lord of the Rings script. A new generation of filmmakers - spearheaded by Lucas - were harping on their nostalgia for Tolkien from the 1960s.


(This post was edited by Chen G. on May 8 2019, 7:02am)


2ndBreffest
Neirol


May 11 2019, 5:19pm

Post #57 of 83 (6002 views)
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well... [In reply to] Can't Post

after the tremendous disappointment that was the PJ Hobbit, I actually wish we could have seen what 1970s era George Lucas would have done with the story.


Paulo Gabriel
Llednevir

May 18 2019, 5:48pm

Post #58 of 83 (5697 views)
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I think some would complain.... [In reply to] Can't Post

the same way. 'Cause lots of people still don't like PJ's LOTR.


2ndBreffest
Neirol


May 18 2019, 7:44pm

Post #59 of 83 (5679 views)
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yes [In reply to] Can't Post

that is true.


Solicitr
NahoR

May 18 2019, 9:08pm

Post #60 of 83 (5670 views)
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Hmm [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
the same way. 'Cause lots of people still don't like PJ's LOTR.


It's almost as if you're claiming that those "some people" who don't like PJ's LR are nuts or something, like people who don't like the original Star Wars.


Chen G.
NahoR

May 18 2019, 9:31pm

Post #61 of 83 (5687 views)
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Nuts? Hardly [In reply to] Can't Post

They're certainly not films for everyone.

And people are free to dislike the original Star Wars just as well.


Paulo Gabriel
Llednevir

May 19 2019, 7:38am

Post #62 of 83 (5645 views)
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No. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
the same way. 'Cause lots of people still don't like PJ's LOTR.


It's almost as if you're claiming that those "some people" who don't like PJ's LR are nuts or something, like people who don't like the original Star Wars.


I simply think some of them have good arguments for their position -- although I think movie criticism is ultimately an entirely subjective matter, and hence not worth discussing in the same vein as science matters or something. Got it? Hehe.


Paulo Gabriel
Llednevir

May 26 2019, 6:52am

Post #63 of 83 (5067 views)
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But do you know... [In reply to] Can't Post

people who dislike the original Star Wars movies? Crazy


Chen G.
NahoR

May 28 2019, 2:50pm

Post #64 of 83 (4959 views)
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I don't like Return of the Jedi [In reply to] Can't Post

that counts, right?

Plus, I have my issues with the original Star Wars. Its too much of a kids film for me.


VeArkenstone
Neirol

May 30 2019, 3:01pm

Post #65 of 83 (4838 views)
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Thorin and Thranduil [In reply to] Can't Post

It is so complicated between Thorin and Thranduil. I do think at the beginning of the quest, Thorin had unselfish intentions, wanting Erebor back for all Dwarf-kind before the Dragon invited the orcs in and it fall out of Dwarvish hands probably forever. Once reaching Erebor, Thorin's mental condition deterioated until he met Smaug face-to-face. I think 95% of the Company wanted Thorin to do the right thing, which was to help the people of Laketown, sit down with Thranduil, Bard and the Company and plan what to do next, to keep his promises, and not make himself out to be a mentally-ill liar and treasure hoarder.

I can't blame Thranduil not risking his kin in a fight against Smaug. Thranduil had fought dragons before, barely escaping with his life, and had been warning Thror for years of what his treasure hoard could attract. Thranduil's isolationist tendencies could to be possibly a form of Elfish mental illness due to their immortal lifespan and the level of pain that builds up over time as a result. It was especially difficult for Elfish women.

Please, call me Ve.


(This post was edited by VeArkenstone on May 30 2019, 3:08pm)


Chen G.
NahoR

May 30 2019, 3:14pm

Post #66 of 83 (4833 views)
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Fantastic post [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah, while the film clearly has a "globalistic" worldview that it ends up landing upon (its really a trilogy with a "political" messege, of sorts), it doesn't treat Thranduil's isolationstic policy in too one-sided a manner.

His motivations are understandable and they're stated and restated quite clearly: "Thranduil would not risk the lives of his kin against the wrath of the Dragon." As well as "I've spent enough Elvish blood in defense of this accursed land. No more." Also through his son: "This is not our fight."


kzer_za
Neirol

May 31 2019, 1:28am

Post #67 of 83 (4783 views)
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Having recently rewatched Star Wars 1-6... [In reply to] Can't Post

Return of the Jedi was much more flawed than I remember. It's more than just the Ewoks, like ghost Obi-wan's "certain point of view" infodump is just a painfully awkward retcon, Han Solo just bumbles around with nothing to do, and reusing the Death Star set a bad precedent for Star Wars' endless self-referentiality. I'm tempted to say The Hobbit movies are better (where like many here I fall somewhere between Solicitr and Chen G), though I would need to rewatch TH trilogy one more time before I commit to that iconoclastic view (their cast and camera work certainly are).

But I still have some affection for RotJ due to Jabba's Palace, a satisfying last 20 minutes that finally pulls the movie together, and nostalgia.


(This post was edited by kzer_za on May 31 2019, 1:35am)


Chen G.
NahoR

May 31 2019, 9:24am

Post #68 of 83 (4735 views)
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Literally the only part of Return of the Jedi that works [In reply to] Can't Post

is the Luke/Vader subplot. Its poetic and, on one or two occasions, even poignant.

I seem to recall rating Return of the Jedi a *** out of *****, which is lower than what I rated any of the three Hobbit films, although its a bit of an apples-and-kumquats comparison. I also rated Revenge of the Sith higher than that.

My issue is that Return of the Jedi only begins thirty minutes into its own runtime. The Jabba's palace sequence you think fondly of may be interesting on its own right, but it has nothing to do directly with the main plot of the film.

It also stretches the capabilities of ILM to their absolute limit, both with rear-projection (which is as garish as any bad CG effect) and with practical effects: I watched it with a young cousin of mine, and even he couldn't take those swine-creatures with any seriousness.

The whole "Leia and Luke are sibilings" is mind-numbingly idiotic, and requires a huge exposition dump with zero tension. In a better movie, Luke would be left to dwell on the "there is another" instead of hitting the nail on the head in the very next scene.

While I said its not a fair comparison, I do have one meaningful comparison: the climax of Return of the Jedi intercuts three parallel storylines, which is an approach I almost never like: it communicates a lack of confidence on the part of the storytellers, as if their main storyline isn't sufficient on its own right to hold the audience's attention. You also see in Christopher Nolan films, in other Star Wars films (The Phantom Menace and The Last Jedi, especially), etcetra.

The Desolation of Smaug intercuts as many as five or six, but instead of stacking them over each other in the way that Return of the Jedi does - it lets each subplot play out, one by one, as if stripping them off of the film, until we're left with just the main storyline.


(This post was edited by Chen G. on May 31 2019, 9:29am)


CuriousG
Nevle-flah


Jun 1 2019, 1:03pm

Post #69 of 83 (4679 views)
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I can forgive "Return of the Jedi" for the Ewoks, but [In reply to] Can't Post

I'll never forgive that lame re-use of destroying another Death Star.


skyofcoffeebeans
Llednevir

Jun 1 2019, 1:05pm

Post #70 of 83 (4674 views)
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Wait until... [In reply to] Can't Post

... you see the Force Awakens!


Chen G.
NahoR

Jun 1 2019, 3:02pm

Post #71 of 83 (4662 views)
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To be fair to that film [In reply to] Can't Post

The Force Awakens - much more so than Return of the Jedi - has mostly excellent craft to fall back on, and it really clips along quite nicely. The theatrical version of An Unexpected Journey is a counter example wherein, in its attempts to set-up two more films, it gets bogged down.

It happens to other films, as well. Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone does that. To some degree, The Phantom Menace does it. Some Marvel entries do so.

While The Force Awakens doesn't set-up nearly as many plot-points for its sequels as An Unexpected Journey does, it is still admirable that its able to get a trilogy off of the ground without ever slowing down more than it absolutely has to.

The extended cut of An Unexpected Journey, on the other hand, works much better as a leisurely, poetic two-part piece in the vein of a 60s epic. I revise my rating: a **** out of *****.


(This post was edited by Chen G. on Jun 1 2019, 3:11pm)


2ndBreffest
Neirol


Jun 1 2019, 4:08pm

Post #72 of 83 (4631 views)
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well... [In reply to] Can't Post

all of the new SW movies are just awful. It's amazing anyone even still cares at this point.


CuriousG
Nevle-flah


Jun 1 2019, 4:53pm

Post #73 of 83 (4623 views)
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I didn't say I've forgiven that film. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Chen G.
NahoR

Jun 1 2019, 6:21pm

Post #74 of 83 (4606 views)
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What's it like, not liking things? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
all of the new SW movies are just awful. It's amazing anyone even still cares at this point.


What's it like, not liking things? Can't imagine its fun. Tongue

Myself, I'm in two minds about the new Star Wars installments. As films, their craft is very good indeed: the effects, the photography, the acting. Interesting stories, often-engagin characters and well-directed. So, no, I don't think they're awful.

However, as parts of a series of films - and I'm so glad that this will never happen in this franchise - the sequel trilogy really is redundant. Star Wars has a story which, for all intents and purposes, is perfectly complete by the end of Return of the Jedi. In this franchise, no film will ever be set after The Return of the King.


(This post was edited by Chen G. on Jun 1 2019, 6:22pm)


2ndBreffest
Neirol


Jun 1 2019, 6:35pm

Post #75 of 83 (4602 views)
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well... [In reply to] Can't Post

in order to be able to like something, there needs to be something you don't like. I dislike the new Star Wars movies because I like the originals. Same goes for TH movies...the reason I dislike them is directly related to how much I like the book.

And I hope you are correct, but unfortunately, I wouldn't put it past hollywood these days to attempt a sequel to the LotR.

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