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The White Rider - 2. Legolas Tells a Tale
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Kethry
Lorien


May 5 2008, 11:02pm

Post #1 of 32 (2243 views)
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The White Rider - 2. Legolas Tells a Tale Can't Post

We’re going to get to know Legolas a bit better in this section. He doesn’t usually have a lot to say, but he interested me in the next couple blocks of text.

Now that the sun had risen, the three of them start looking around for signs of what might have happened to the hobbits. Aragorn finds a piece of mallorn-leaf and calls the others over. There are also crumbs, pieces of cut cord, and a knife. They discuss the possibilities of what these things could mean. Legolas starts to tell a little tale about what he thinks could have happened.

A bound prisoner escapes both from the Orcs and from the surrounding horsemen. He then stops, while still in the open, and cuts his bonds with an orc-knife. But how and why? For if his legs were tied, how did he walk? And if his arms were tied, how did he use the knife? And if neither were tied, why did he cut the cords at all? Being pleased with his skill, he then sat down and quietly ate some waybread! That at least is enough to show that he was a hobbit, without the mallorn-leaf. After that, I suppose, he turned his arms into wings and flew away singing into the trees. It should be easy to find him: we only need wings ourselves!


This is a rather interesting tale that Legolas weaves. As I typed this out, I could just hear a voice, incredulous and wondering, having no real idea about what had happened and what those signs mean. This may be a silly question, but it was something that occurred to me: do you think that elves ever get carried away by their emotions? We usually see Elves as calm, imperturbable beings. But do they perhaps ever stomp up and down, waving their arms? Or are they always calm and controlled? Do you think they ever shout?

Gimli has a bit of an obsession with the old man. He keeps bringing him up and assuming that he’s behind everything. He then asks Aragorn if he agrees with Legolas’ interpretation of the signs. Aragorn reconstructs as best he can what happened, and he turns out to be pretty accurate.

Aragorn finds more signs and prints, which lead them to the very edge of the wood. There is some conversation about entering the wood, and then Legolas shows off his Detect Evil skills.

I do not think the wood feels evil, whatever the tales may say. No, it is not evil; or what evil is in it is far away. I catch only the faintest echoes of dark places where the hearts of the trees are black. There is no malice near us; but there is watchfulness, and anger.


Is this an Elven power or ability that we’ve ever seen before? Or is this just the manifestation of the connection between Elves and the land? Have we seen this used in this way before?

Legolas continues to demonstrate his capabilities by noticing how tense the forest is. “There is something happening inside, or going to happen. Do you not feel the tenseness?” Right now the Ents are beginning the second day of Entmoot, and the forest is reflecting the slow-building anger of the Ents. The objects of the search of these companions have just spent the night with Quickbeam and still have a whole day of waiting left. But the Three Hunters do not know this, all they know is that they must venture into the watchful and angry forest to find their friends, or some hint of what happened to them.

The narrator takes the opportunity to again point out that a Dwarf and an Elf are having this conversation, as if to highlight the different reactions that they are having. Gimli doesn’t trust the forest, and cautions Legolas to keep his bow at the ready. Legolas, on the other hand, is intrigued by what he is picking up from the trees. He makes a comment that is very interesting to me in two ways: “It is old, very old. So old that almost I feel young again, as I have not felt since I journeyed with you children. It is old and full of memory. I could have been happy here, if I had come in days of peace.” Just how old is Legolas? I don’t believe that there is anything more specific about his age. And there is something else about his comment that interested me. They have been on the road only two months. From Legolas’ comment, I would have thought that they had been traveling for years. We know from the stay in Lórien time can seem to flow differently around and for the Elves. What are your thoughts about how Legolas might perceive the passage of time as opposed to a mortal?


"Any kind of plan where you lose your hat... is a bad plan."

'But it does not seem that I can trust anyone,' said Frodo.
Sam looked at him unhappily. 'It all depends on what you want,' put in Merry. 'You can trust us to stick to you through thick and thin - to the bitter end. And you can trust us to keep any secret of yours - closer than you keep it yourself. But you cannot trust us to let you face trouble alone, and go off without a word. We are your friends, Frodo.'


Tolkien Forever
Gondor

May 6 2008, 12:48am

Post #2 of 32 (1819 views)
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Crazy Elves - Lots of them [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes there is a lot of emotional Elves - textual backup later......

This is a rather interesting tale that Legolas weaves. As I typed this out, I could just hear a voice, incredulous and wondering, having no real idea about what had happened and what those signs mean. This may be a silly question, but it was something that occurred to me: do you think that elves ever get carried away by their emotions? We usually see Elves as calm, imperturbable beings. But do they perhaps ever stomp up and down, waving their arms? Or are they always calm and controlled? Do you think they ever shout?

Well, just read the Silmarillion. Many get carried off in their emotions & disaster comes from it. Certainly Feanor & his seven sons in 'straightforeward' leaping up & taking the oath that binds them to "pursue to the ends of the world any creature...... be he Vala or Demon, Elf or Man as yet unborn, ....whoso should hold or keep a Silmaril from their possesion."

'....Fingolfin & Turgon...... spoke against Feanor, & fierce words awoke, so that once AGAIN WRATH came near to the edge of swords.

Next, before the Kinslaying:

'Then Feanor grew wrathful, for he still feared delay; and hotly he spoke to Olwe.'

And, it's not just Feanor....

Of the Ruin of Beleriand:

'Then Fingolfin beheld (as it seemed to him) the utter ruin of the Noldor, & the defeat beyond redress of all their houses; and filled with WRATH & despair he mounted upon Rochollar his great horse & rode forth alone & none might restrain him.....'

Of course, there's Eol, no need to go there, or Searos, with Turin......

Hoiw about Thingol with the Dwarves that kill him?
'But Thingol perceived their hearts, & saw well that desiring the Silmaril they sought but a pretext & fair cloak for their true intent; and in his wrath & pride he gave no heed to his peril, but spoke to them in scorn...'

So, we see that Elves certainly lost their tempers & had pride. Whether they were animated to the point of waving their arms or slamming fists on tables, who knows. The absense of information is not the certainty of proof.
It seems that as the Elves did less (2nd Age) & less (Third Age), they got in less beefs.


Gimli has a bit of an obsession with the old man. He keeps bringing him up and assuming that he’s behind everything. He then asks Aragorn if he agrees with Legolas’ interpretation of the signs. Aragorn reconstructs as best he can what happened, and he turns out to be pretty accurate.

Somewhat, but not too accurate.

Aragorn finds more signs and prints, which lead them to the very edge of the wood. There is some conversation about entering the wood, and then Legolas shows off his Detect Evil skills.

I do not think the wood feels evil, whatever the tales may say. No, it is not evil; or what evil is in it is far away. I catch only the faintest echoes of dark places where the hearts of the trees are black. There is no malice near us; but there is watchfulness, and anger.



Is this an Elven power or ability that we’ve ever seen before? Or is this just the manifestation of the connection between Elves and the land? Have we seen this used in this way before?

Well, I wouldn't call this 'detective skills' - that's what Aragorn just used. This is Legolas' Elen gift of 'oneness with the land' that Elves just have. And yes, Legolas has used it before. Just off the top of my head, I recall in Hollin where Legolas says that only the rocks still remember that the Elves 'delved deep' there, whereas the rest of the land has forgotten.


Legolas continues to demonstrate his capabilities by noticing how tense the forest is. “There is something happening inside, or going to happen. Do you not feel the tenseness?” Right now the Ents are beginning the second day of Entmoot, and the forest is reflecting the slow-building anger of the Ents. The objects of the search of these companions have just spent the night with Quickbeam and still have a whole day of waiting left. But the Three Hunters do not know this, all they know is that they must venture into the watchful and angry forest to find their friends, or some hint of what happened to them.

The narrator takes the opportunity to again point out that a Dwarf and an Elf are having this conversation, as if to highlight the different reactions that they are having. Gimli doesn’t trust the forest, and cautions Legolas to keep his bow at the ready. Legolas, on the other hand, is intrigued by what he is picking up from the trees. He makes a comment that is very interesting to me in two ways: “It is old, very old. So old that almost I feel young again, as I have not felt since I journeyed with you children. It is old and full of memory. I could have been happy here, if I had come in days of peace.” Just how old is Legolas? I don’t believe that there is anything more specific about his age. And there is something else about his comment that interested me.

Well, I know it is widely accepted that Legolas was born about the beginning of the Third Age, but I don't know where this comes from.......

We know his father comes from the Grey Elves of Beleriand, Doriath, I believe, which puts his birth in the First Age.
It is conceivable to me that Legolas was also born in perhaps the late First Age - and this is why: "It was a Balrog of Morgoth" he tells Celeborn when Aragorn calls Durin's Bane "An evil of the Ancient World it seemed." Now how would Legolas know for sure that it was a Balrog if he'd never seen one before?
Someone said due to Elvish lore passed down, but I don't buy that because Aragorn had much more Elvish lore available to him in Rivendel than Legolas does in Mirkwood, & Aragorn didn't know it was a Balrog.......


They have been on the road only two months. From Legolas’ comment, I would have thought that they had been traveling for years.

I don't see that......
Legolas could've felt young after a week on the road with the others.


We know from the stay in Lórien time can seem to flow differently around and for the Elves. What are your thoughts about how Legolas might perceive the passage of time as opposed to a mortal?

Well, my sense of eternity & God in eternity is, as God says ":I Am."....
Not, "I will be" or "I was"..... Time just is for eternal beings & that's what Tolkien intended for his Elves.
So, for Lorien, within the power of Galadriel's Ring, they are in a state of 'eternity'. To mortals, they are effected, yet to the Elves, time already 'is', so I don't think it would effect Legolas as greatly as the other members of the Fellowship.
Yet, there is still the fact that in Middle-earth, which decays, life effentually becomes wearying to the Elves. But, this hadn't begun to happen to Legolas yet: "If thou hearest the crys of gulls on the shore, thy heart will rest in the forest no more' (sorry, we aren't there yet). Of course, Legolas hasn't got to the shore yet, so he doesn't have that unrest of Middle-earth in him, so he's probably quite content in Lorien.


Elenedhel
Rivendell


May 6 2008, 2:46am

Post #3 of 32 (1802 views)
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Re: The White Rider-2. Legolas Tells a Tale [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Just how old is Legolas?

Something I always wondered... what do Elves look like as children? And how long does it take for them to grow up?

"O Elbereth! Gilthoniel!
We still remember, we who dwell
In this far land beneath the trees,
Thy starlight on the Western Seas."




Kelvarhin
Half-elven


May 6 2008, 4:43am

Post #4 of 32 (1797 views)
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Re: The White Rider - 2 [In reply to] Can't Post

This is a rather interesting tale that Legolas weaves. As I typed this out, I could just hear a voice, incredulous and wondering, having no real idea about what had happened and what those signs mean. This may be a silly question, but it was something that occurred to me: do you think that elves ever get carried away by their emotions? We usually see Elves as calm, imperturbable beings. But do they perhaps ever stomp up and down, waving their arms? Or are they always calm and controlled? Do you think they ever shout?

As TF said there are plenty of examples of elves losing their cool. Even in the Hobbit, Thranduil and co are pretty quick to throw the dwarves into prison. I think in public they like to portray themselves as calm and collected, but in private… SlyEvil

Is this an Elven power or ability that we’ve ever seen before? Or is this just the manifestation of the connection between Elves and the land? Have we seen this used in this way before?

No it’s not an ability that we’ve never seen before it’s merely emphasizing the fact that Legolas is a woodland elf, so yes to the next question and yes again, in Hollin and Lorien.

The narrator takes the opportunity to again point out that a Dwarf and an Elf are having this conversation, as if to highlight the different reactions that they are having. Gimli doesn’t trust the forest, and cautions Legolas to keep his bow at the ready. Legolas, on the other hand, is intrigued by what he is picking up from the trees. He makes a comment that is very interesting to me in two ways: “It is old, very old. So old that almost I feel young again, as I have not felt since I journeyed with you children. It is old and full of memory. I could have been happy here, if I had come in days of peace.” Just how old is Legolas? I don’t believe that there is anything more specific about his age. And there is something else about his comment that interested me. They have been on the road only two months. From Legolas’ comment, I would have thought that they had been traveling for years. We know from the stay in Lórien time can seem to flow differently around and for the Elves. What are your thoughts about how Legolas might perceive the passage of time as opposed to a mortal?

I don’t recallCrazy Legolas’ age being mentioned anywhere in the book, in the movies they say he’s around 3000yrs old, can’t remember if it’s ever mentioned in any of the HOME series, too long ago since I read any of them, there’s certainly nothing about his birth in the Appendices at the end of ROTK. Did find that Thranduil set up his kingdom in Greenwood at the end of the first age though.

So old that almost I feel young again, as I have not felt since I journeyed with you children”

Think how old you feel when you’re travelling with a bunch of pre-teens and young teens or even toddlers LOL. Probably pretty close to how Legolas felt Evil

There are comments in all of the books from various elves that “time is different” for them to mortal men. Bit pressed for time today, so can’t find any of them at the moment, maybe someone else can remember a few?



There he stood
Proud and solemn
Yet happy and gay


Beren IV
Gondor


May 6 2008, 6:26am

Post #5 of 32 (1879 views)
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Legolas' age is an enigma [In reply to] Can't Post

do you think that elves ever get carried away by their emotions? We usually see Elves as calm, imperturbable beings. But do they perhaps ever stomp up and down, waving their arms? Or are they always calm and controlled? Do you think they ever shout?

I don't see Elves as being particularly excitable creatures, but they certainly can feel very strong emotion and be carried away by it. Slow to anger, slow to calm down, I think is what might describe them. Given their lifespans, this makes a lot of sense: they take a long-term view of things, and long-term includes anger and hatred as well as everything else.


Is this an Elven power or ability that we’ve ever seen before? Or is this just the manifestation of the connection between Elves and the land? Have we seen this used in this way before?

No - we've seen things like this before, coming from Legolas, Aragorn, Gandalf, etc. Basically, characters with wisdom and any magical inclination at all - and any Elf qualifies but non-Elves can qualify as well - has intuition that sometimes brings up things like this. Legolas in particular knows trees, so he can tell that these trees are angry, but not at him or his companions.


Just how old is Legolas? I don’t believe that there is anything more specific about his age. And there is something else about his comment that interested me. They have been on the road only two months. From Legolas’ comment, I would have thought that they had been traveling for years. We know from the stay in Lórien time can seem to flow differently around and for the Elves. What are your thoughts about how Legolas might perceive the passage of time as opposed to a mortal?

That's the big question and the answer depends on interpretation. I normally imagine Elves as having a life cycle of about two centuries, and given that Legolas appears unmarried, I would not place him as older than that. However, Tolkien implies that there are a lot of Elves who are much older. Legolas may very well be; the two-century rule may have been something of the First Age. In the Third, it might be two millennia!

That said, I think it fairly clear that Elves look beyond their own lifespans (i.e. they look to the future of their societies, even after they have been killed). So their racial memory is even older than they are...

Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist


Curious
Half-elven


May 6 2008, 9:49am

Post #6 of 32 (1878 views)
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Legolas seems to be between 500 and 3000 years old. [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
"Many long lives of men it is since the golden hall was built."
"Five hundred times have the red leaves fallen in Mirkwood my home since then," said Legolas, "and but a little while does that seem to us."


From "The King of the Golden Hall."

That and his statements about Fangorn making him feel young again indicate Legolas is at least 500 years old. Yet because there is no mention of him in the Last Alliance, it seems likely that he was born in the Third Age, less than 3000 years ago. Because he seems so unfamiliar with places like Hollin and Lothlorien and Fangorn, some speculate that he is barely more than 500 years old, and may have been born after the Mirkwood elves had moved north, far from Lothlorien.

I think Legolas's tale of the hobbits' escape proves that he has a sense of humor. It also shows his deference to Aragorn as the expert tracker in the party. It seems strange to me that Legolas would not also be an expert tracker, but is it possible that Legolas deliberately poses the riddle for Aragorn to answer, rather than answering it himself?

I've had this experience on trips where I am not in charge, and someone in whom I have confidence is in charge. I pay no attention to where we are precisely because of my confidence in our guide, but if the guide were missing or got lost my attitude would immediately change, as I tried to figure out where we are. We see this in the hobbits when they get separated from Aragorn and must try to figure out where they are, but Legolas and Gimli never get separated from Aragorn, and therefore rely on their guide throughout the tale.

I think that if Legolas were on his own he would be a much more expert tracker than the hobbits, and almost as expert as Aragorn himself. Certainly he has the keen eyesight for it. What he lacks is Aragorn's familiarity with the rest of Middle-earth. Aragorn has been here before. But here Legolas deliberately pretends to be dumber than he really is, thus setting the stage for Aragorn's expert analysis.

In The Silmarillion and The Hobbit elves do get emotional -- dangerously so. In LotR we meet a more refined set of elves, mostly leaders of their kind, and we also meet them at a time in history when they are semi-retired from Middle-earth, ready to sail west to Elvenhome at any moment.

Legolas was sensitive to the land before this in Hollin and in Rohan. Tolkien is consistent. Of course here in a forest Legolas's sensitivity should be at its highest.

For elves, time goes by both quickly and slowly. Quickly because mortals come and go in the blink of an eye during an immortal lifetime. Slowly because the elves seem to have extraordinary memories and the ability to relive their memories in full, and also because they can become weary of life, particularly as Middle-earth deteriorates before their eyes, and seem to live more and more in their memories of the past. Tolkien does comment on this, or has his characters comment on it, from time to time in LotR and HoME.

Furthermore elves think nothing of waiting 500 years to take action, whereas men are always impatient to take action immediately, before they die. Look at Legolas and Aragorn, for example. Legolas is much older, and yet this seems like his first trip away from home, while Aragorn has traveled widely in his 88 years. Or look at The Silmarillion. Beren and Tuor and Turin and Earendil were instruments of action, while the elves, with the exception of Feanor, seemed to prefer settling in for a siege lasting for centuries, or finding a secret refuge where they could wait out the age-long war.


Tolkien Forever
Gondor

May 6 2008, 1:33pm

Post #7 of 32 (1767 views)
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No Mention [In reply to] Can't Post

That and his statements about Fangorn making him feel young again indicate Legolas is at least 500 years old. Yet because there is no mention of him in the Last Alliance, it seems likely that he was born in the Third Age, less than 3000 years ago.

But only the most major characters are mentioned & there's no need to mention Legolas was there, so that's not proof. Malendil, son of Anarion & Elendur & Isildur's other 2 eldest sons were also there but never mentioned too......
If we take Tolkien's (supposed) 'last word' on Glorfindel coming in the Second Age, then he must've been there too but isn't mentioned, and we can safely assume that if there, he was certainly right there with Cirdan, Gil-Galad, Elrond, Elendil & Isildur. Personally, this is on of the reasons it makes sense that upon further review, Tolkien would've concluded that Glorfindel came in the Third Age with the Istari.

Because he seems so unfamiliar with places like Hollin and Lothlorien and Fangorn, some speculate that he is barely more than 500 years old, and may have been born after the Mirkwood elves had moved north, far from Lothlorien.

Where does it say that the Elves of Mirkwood came from Lothlorien?
I seem to recall that it says that Sindar came among the Silvan Elves & established realms in Lorien & Mirkwood.

And, as you yourself state later:

while the elves, with the exception of Feanor, seemed to prefer settling in for a siege lasting for centuries, or finding a secret refuge where they could wait out the age-long war.

Aside from Maglor, we don't see alot of Elves doing a bunch of travelling, so Legolas' not being to these places really does not indicate age.

What about his positive identification of 'The Balrog of Morgoth'? How did Legolas know it was a Balrog if he never saw one when Aragorn, who had much more Elvish lore at his disposal in Rivendel, did not know it?
This would indicate that Legolas had seen a Balrog in person before & was therefore alive in the First Age.
I'd like you to respond & tell me if you think this theory holds any water.......


BTW: Beren IV: Where'd you get the idea the life cycle of an elf is 2 centuries?
Their life is bound to the earth & their bodies might burn out in 10,000 centuries or years, I forget which one Tolkien says without looking it up.




Tweezers of Thu
Rivendell


May 6 2008, 1:46pm

Post #8 of 32 (1759 views)
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From "Of the Laws and Customs Among the Eldar..." [In reply to] Can't Post

...according to AElfwine, one of Tolkien's "historians:"

"The Eldar grew in bodily form slower than Men, but in mind more swiftly. They learned to speak before they were one year old; and in the same time they learned to walk and to dance, for their wills came soon to the mastery of their bodies. Nonetheless, there was less difference between the two Kindreds, Elves and Men, in early youth; and a man who watched elf-children at play might well have believed that they were children of Men, of some fair and happy people...

...For at the end of the third year mortal children began to outstrip the Elves, hastening on to full stature while the Elves lingered in the first spring of childhood. Children of Men might reach their full height while the Eldar of the same age were still in body like to mortals of no more than seven years. Not until their fiftieth year did the Eldar attain the stature and shape in which their lives would afterwards endure, and for some a hundred years would pass before they were full-grown."

See History of Middle-earth, vol. X "Morgoth's Ring."


Curious
Half-elven


May 6 2008, 2:20pm

Post #9 of 32 (1756 views)
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True, there's no definitive proof [In reply to] Can't Post

that Legolas is less than 3000 years old. It just seems strange that he wouldn't say anything about his participation in the Last Alliance during LotR, especially since they are going to Mordor, where the Last Alliance fought with Sauron's armies.

The elves of Mirkwood did not come from Lothlorien, but they did reside in the southern portion of Greenwood before it turned into Mirkwood, i.e. before Sauron came to Dol Guldur. Thus they were just across the river from Lothlorien, and as Legolas tells us, they were closely related to the elves of Lothlorien, although not to Galadriel. If Legolas had lived in southern Greenwood 2000 years before the present tale, it would seem strange that he did not know more about Lothlorien.

As for Legolas's recognition of a Balrog, I have never seen a dragon, and yet I think I would recognize one if I saw it, and I don't have the benefit of Elvish poetry, which amounts to enchantment. I'm sure Legolas had "seen" Balrogs when he heard tales of the First Age from his older relatives.

In short, Legolas's age is a matter of speculation. We aren't even sure that he is older than 500. But he seems like a younger elf, in contrast to elves we meet who clearly were around in the Second Age, as well as the First.

Actually he seems like a good match for Arwen, which makes his deference to Aragorn that much more remarkable. Of course, we also don't know if he is married -- another matter for speculation, although he acts as if he is single.


a.s.
Valinor


May 6 2008, 2:36pm

Post #10 of 32 (1764 views)
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an oft discussed topic but all rely on textual "hints" [In reply to] Can't Post

I can't say which argument is better, I just don't know! But here is a discussion of Legolas' age that puts it as "less than eight or nine hundred years old, though old enough to have seen five hundred autumns". Michael Martinez guesstimates about 500 years old, perhaps the source of the "generally held age" on the internet, anyway.

This question is probably as old as LOTR, and certainly as old as the USENET groups. I did a very cursory search at rec.arts.books.tolkien, for instance, and came up with a 1996 discussion! Martinez was discussing this as far back as 1998 on rec.arts, here's one with a name that some might recognize.

Old USENET posts never die, they always come back to haunt one.

Cool

a.s.

"an seileachan"



"It doesn't happen all at once," said the Skin Horse. "You become. It takes a long time. That's why it doesn't happen often to people who break easily, or have sharp edges, or who have to be carefully kept. Generally, by the time you are Real, most of your hair has been loved off, and your eyes drop out and you get loose in the joints and very shabby. But these things don't matter at all, because once you are Real you can't be ugly, except to people who don't understand."

"I suppose you are real?" said the Rabbit. And then he wished he had not said it, for he thought the Skin Horse might be sensitive.

But the Skin Horse only smiled.



visualweasel
Rohan


May 6 2008, 3:12pm

Post #11 of 32 (1740 views)
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I agree — idle and inconclusive speculation [In reply to] Can't Post

Curious summed up my view as well. We don’t have any idea how old Legolas is, nor whether he’s even reached his 500th birthday. He says (quoted already), “Five hundred times have the red leaves fallen in Mirkwood in my home since then, [..] and but a little while does that seem to us” (emphasis added). Note “us” – it strikes me this is merely the style of Elvish speech. It basically means something like, “Long time? Pshaw! You don’t know a long time, lemme tell ya ...” *sighs with the weary weight of the world*

I see no reason whatsoever to assume Legolas has personally seen those five hundred autumns. And ditto on the question of Legolas’s “recognizing” a Balrog. Nor do I think either really matters.

Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish


The Lord of the Rings discussion 2007-2008 – The Two Towers – III.4 “Treebeard” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6


Canto
Bree


May 6 2008, 3:40pm

Post #12 of 32 (1740 views)
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While reading some of the insightful links [In reply to] Can't Post

which a.s. provided above, I was thinking along similar lines: does it really mean that Legolas himself has witnessed these 500 times the red leaves have fallen? Couldn't he have just overheard this when other, older Elves were discussing the Rohirrim? Isn't it possible, whether in some verse or Elven lore of Middle-earth, that the coming of the Rohirrim is mentioned as such - similar in nature to the lore poem which Treebeard recites? In fact, I'm almost inclined to think it is since Legolas announces this historical tidbit in a rather poetic fashion.

In my opinion, Legolas doesn't come across as an experienced Elf at all. His long quixotic analysis of what the crumbs, rope, etc. might signal borders on the sardonic with its jocularity. I'm not saying he's purposeless nor that he has no experience at all because that would be ignoring evidence to the contrary, but he definitely comes across as one of more (if not the most) reactive (rather than ruminative) Elves.



Beren IV
Gondor


May 6 2008, 4:39pm

Post #13 of 32 (1730 views)
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I was going to call you on that [In reply to] Can't Post

There are a lot of gaps in Legolas' origins that are wholly ambiguous. For example, we don't even know who his mother is!

Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist


Dreamdeer
Valinor


May 6 2008, 5:10pm

Post #14 of 32 (1727 views)
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Talking to the Trees [In reply to] Can't Post

Here's where one of those cultural disconnects come into play, when the dominant culture says, "Isn't that weird?" and I have to say, "Uh, what? Weird? That?"

It isn't just elves who know what trees and land and other aspects of creation feel. This is a common perception among peoples close to nature. Just a few weeks ago I was at a Yaqui conference where an elder was practically in tears about the fact that too many young people no longer listen to the land and all the creatures of the land, so that although they might take pride in their heritage as Yaquis, they are not really Yoeme anymore.

I usually have a pretty good idea what trees and other greenlife feel. Most of the time it's pretty basic, "Mmmm...sunlight! Nice soil. Could use more water. Yum--tasty gasses! Ugh...don't like that one." But occasionally they have conveyed specific and useful information, and they are more aware of their surroundings than they let on.

The chief barrier in the modern era to opening up to this awareness is inadequate science. People think that they've got thought processes pegged down as neurological/hormonal responses, and since plants don't have nerves or humanesque hormones, they must not think or feel, right? And yes, that science works beautifully for animals--but that's as far as it goes. Plants have a different way of processing information, just as they have a different way of processing nutrients. They breathe without lungs, they eat without stomachs, they drink without throats, they process chemicals without livers--what makes people think they need brains? Yet whenever a person overly conditioned by the dominant culture begins to perceive the thoughts and feelings of a tree, they chalk it up to imagination and quickly blank it from their minds.

I do not think Tolkien was one of those overly impressed by the dominant culture. Many different things written by him and about him indicate to me that he was every bit as conversant with trees as Legolas. He could not declare such a thing too openly in his cultural milieu, mind you--in the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man gets packed off to an insane asylum for hallucinating. He could, however, get away with projecting such perceptions onto fictional characters within fantasy stories.

My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.


Canto
Bree


May 6 2008, 5:37pm

Post #15 of 32 (1717 views)
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I was hesitant to say so [In reply to] Can't Post

but I agree with you. That is, I don't necessarily see Elves alone being specifically unique regarding their ability to hear nature, but rather anybody who is willing to be attune to nature. I am reminded of Toltec wisdom, spirituality and shamanism.

Victor Sanchez claims to be a Toltec shaman himself. I recently had the good fortune to watch a documentary featuring Mr. Sanchez. One of his students was talking about how uncomfortable an average spiritual session could be with him. The student went on to say that Victor would place you in front of a tree, or a rock, or a small plant and leave you alone to face the object until there occurred an awakening regarding the self's relationship to the object. I can only imagine what the original Toltecs must've heard without partaking of any special sessions.


Curious
Half-elven


May 6 2008, 5:44pm

Post #16 of 32 (1721 views)
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Except that Legolas [In reply to] Can't Post

calls Gimli and Aragorn "children" in this chapter, and they aren't spring chickens. That would make sense if Legolas is 500 years old, and not if he is, say, 200 years old. Gimli is already 140 years old.


Quote
I see no reason whatsoever to assume Legolas has personally seen those five hundred autumns.



I agree that it is ambiguous, but I do think there is fuel for speculation. Based on the inconclusive evidence, I like to think of Legolas as at least 500 years old and less than 2000 years old, although I can't prove it.


visualweasel
Rohan


May 6 2008, 5:57pm

Post #17 of 32 (1705 views)
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Agreed [In reply to] Can't Post

At a minimum, I think we know that Legolas is older than Gimli, and probably at least twice his age, but that would be sufficient for me. I think he could be, say, 300, and still make the “children” comment. In all reality (such ‘reality’ as there is), you’re probably right to point to 500 as the likelier minimum age. Maybe one of these days an illuminating scribble from Tolkien will turn up – along with his unpublished but eagerly anticipated linguistic essay on Balrog’s wings! ;)

If I were feeling ornery, I might try making the argument that Legolas’s “children” comment might be meant to refer to the age of his race, in general, or to the Elves’ very different perception of the passing of time – and not his own personal age. But if I did make that argument, it would be nothing more than advocatus diaboli – I do believe, as I think we all do, that Legolas was referring to himself personally here.

Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish


The Lord of the Rings discussion 2007-2008 – The Two Towers – III.4 “Treebeard” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6


Tolkien Forever
Gondor

May 6 2008, 7:06pm

Post #18 of 32 (1733 views)
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Dreams [In reply to] Can't Post

As for Legolas's recognition of a Balrog, I have never seen a dragon, and yet I think I would recognize one if I saw it, and I don't have the benefit of Elvish poetry, which amounts to enchantment. I'm sure Legolas had "seen" Balrogs when he heard tales of the First Age from his older relatives.

Well, I won't belabor this point much because it was an idea, a theory & not a textually backed up fact & I was just throwing it out there myself to be honest.

The reason, however that we all know dragons is that we see them everywhere, not so Balrogs - remember the discussions on PJ's Balrog?

I like the idea of Legolas 'seeing' a Balrog in Elvish tales of the First Age (songs actually like in Rivendel - perhaps he heard one there recently?), but remember, he lives among Sivan Elves who don't know Beleriand fron Numenor, other than his father. Even his mother may be Silvan.....

Also, remember that the Elves don't sing of certain events that too sadden them?
Isn't it said that Glorfindel versus his Balrog was one of them?
Do you therefore think they sing about Fingon being beaten into the mud by Gothmog & another Balrog?
Doubtful....

So, we're kinda back where we started again.....

But, as Visualweasal says, it really isn't important - but still fun to speculate anyhow.


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


May 6 2008, 10:51pm

Post #19 of 32 (1713 views)
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I can imagine Carl Hostetter [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Maybe one of these days an illuminating scribble from Tolkien will turn up – along with his unpublished but eagerly anticipated linguistic essay on Balrog’s wings! ;)



...sitting quietly on a note explaining the principles of Balrog flight, that's been buried in Tolkien's comments on the changes undergone by Sindarin between the First and Third Ages, awaiting the full publication of earlier texts needed for it to be properly understood. Wink

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Join us May 5-11 for "The White Rider".


Dreamdeer
Valinor


May 7 2008, 3:43am

Post #20 of 32 (1721 views)
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Elves singing the blues [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it depends upon the individual elf and the circumstances as to whether elves will sing or avoid singing sad songs. Elves sang of Gandalf's fall in Lorien, and that was hardly a feel-good topic. And remember,when Sam started singing, "Gil-Galad was an elvish king/Of him the harpers sadly sing..." he recited the translation of an elvish song. Right there it says that sometimes elvish "harpers sadly sing."

My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.


ElanorTX
Tol Eressea


May 7 2008, 10:11am

Post #21 of 32 (1686 views)
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illuminating scribbles [In reply to] Can't Post

From HoME 12 we learn that Tolkien was still changing timelines right up to the point of publication.
For instance, Elrond's marriage to Celebrian was originally 2300 TA and Arwen's birthyear 2349 TA; these dates changed to
109 and 241. Although Elrond is stated to have married late, waiting an Age or two certainly wasn't hasty!

Aragorn's birthyear remains at 2931 TA, making him nearly 2700 years younger than his wife.
The 27 years between their meeting and betrothal may have seemed an impetuous infatuation to the Elves.

ElanorTX

"I shall not wholly fail if anything can still grow fair in days to come."


Kethry
Lorien


May 7 2008, 11:36pm

Post #22 of 32 (1659 views)
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Ah yes, the Silmarillion and the crazy elves. [In reply to] Can't Post

I tend to forget about using the Sil as a reference. I haven't read it all that recently, so thank you for pointing those examples out.

Now that I've begun thinking about the Sil and the Elder Days, and before the First Age, do you think that the tendency of getting carried away by their emotions was a result of Middle-Earth being so young? That the Elves had not been around long enough to learn from their history. And once they left Valinor, and spent more time in Middle-Earth, did the fact that they are entering the land that Morgoth took dominion over have any effect on their emotions and their tendency to let their anger control their actions? Of course, not every Elf had that problem, many controlled themselves just fine.

I would imagine that the Elves who survived the First Age and stayed behind would have learned from those examples that caused so much war and death. And as the ages passed, they became less involved, and as you say "got in less beefs", and were less inclined to involve themselves in other people's problems.


"Any kind of plan where you lose your hat... is a bad plan."

'But it does not seem that I can trust anyone,' said Frodo.
Sam looked at him unhappily. 'It all depends on what you want,' put in Merry. 'You can trust us to stick to you through thick and thin - to the bitter end. And you can trust us to keep any secret of yours - closer than you keep it yourself. But you cannot trust us to let you face trouble alone, and go off without a word. We are your friends, Frodo.'


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


May 8 2008, 2:06am

Post #23 of 32 (1663 views)
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Time passages [In reply to] Can't Post

The best example I can think of that shows how "time is different" for the Elves, is how Legolas explained it to Frodo as they traveled down Anduin: "For the Elves the world moves, and it moves both very swift and very slow. Swift, because they themselves change little, and all else fleets by: it is a grief to them. Slow, because they do not count the running years, not for themselves. The passing seasons are but ripples ever repeated in the long long stream. "

Others are about how the places they live are touched by this "timelessness". Bilbo says of Rivendell in "Many Meetings": "Time doesn’t seem to pass here: it just is." And Frodo's impression of Lórien: "...it seemed to him that he had stepped over a bridge of time into a corner of the Elder Days, and was now walking in a world that was no more. In Rivendell there was memory of ancient things; in Lórien the ancient things still lived on in the waking world."

I think there's still another one about the Elves and time, somewhere!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"

"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915


Kelvarhin
Half-elven


May 8 2008, 2:57am

Post #24 of 32 (1698 views)
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Re: Time Passages [In reply to] Can't Post

I remembered all of those passages as soon as I'd read your post Crazy, memory really has been failing me lately.

I seem to remember some in the Silmarillion, (aarrrrgh damn memory) but it's been a few years since I last read it fully. Thanks for those ones dernwyn

~Kelvarhin~


There he stood
Proud and solemn
Yet happy and gay


Darkstone
Immortal


May 13 2008, 6:33pm

Post #25 of 32 (1653 views)
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Elves aren't Vulcans! [In reply to] Can't Post

This is a rather interesting tale that Legolas weaves. As I typed this out, I could just hear a voice, incredulous and wondering, having no real idea about what had happened and what those signs mean. This may be a silly question, but it was something that occurred to me: do you think that elves ever get carried away by their emotions?

Legolas does many times in LOTR. He’s distressed when he realizes the import of Gollum escaping Mirkwood, he becomes so overcome that he cannot finish the song of Nimrodel, he’s too emotionally shook up to translate for the Fellowship the Elven laments about Gandalf.


We usually see Elves as calm, imperturbable beings.

That’s more due to Orlando Bloom’s wooden acting than anything remotely like Tolkien wrote. Elves are not Vulcans!!!


But do they perhaps ever stomp up and down, waving their arms?

Like Legolas did when Gimli insisted that only the Elf be blindfolded with him at the entry of Lorien?


Or are they always calm and controlled?

Like, say, when Legolas freaks out and drops his arrow at the approach of the Balrog, or when he shrinks in surprise and fear when hailed by Haldir, or when he’s scared spitless when the Nazgul flies overhead?


Do you think they ever shout?

Like Legolas when he forgets and lapses into yelling in his native language when attacked by “yrch” on the Anduin?


Aragorn finds more signs and prints, which lead them to the very edge of the wood. There is some conversation about entering the wood, and then Legolas shows off his Detect Evil skills.
I do not think the wood feels evil, whatever the tales may say. No, it is not evil; or what evil is in it is far away. I catch only the faintest echoes of dark places where the hearts of the trees are black. There is no malice near us; but there is watchfulness, and anger.

Is this an Elven power or ability that we’ve ever seen before?


I think it’s more how the trees were really mad. Now if they were really really mad, then Aragorn could sense it. And if they were really really really mad then even the Dwarf could.


Or is this just the manifestation of the connection between Elves and the land?

What about Aragorn? “The king and the land are one.”


Have we seen this used in this way before?

The hobbits when entering The Old Forest.


The narrator takes the opportunity to again point out that a Dwarf and an Elf are having this conversation, as if to highlight the different reactions that they are having. Gimli doesn’t trust the forest, and cautions Legolas to keep his bow at the ready. Legolas, on the other hand, is intrigued by what he is picking up from the trees.


Yeah, like the creature feature with the ultra cautious soldier and the overly curious scientist. Guess who gets eaten first?


He makes a comment that is very interesting to me in two ways: “It is old, very old. So old that almost I feel young again, as I have not felt since I journeyed with you children. It is old and full of memory. I could have been happy here, if I had come in days of peace.” Just how old is Legolas?

Probably not much more than 500 years old. He’s just too goofy acting a lot of times, like the counting contest with Gimli. Would Glorfindel or Elrond have done something so, well, immature? This is Legolas' first road trip and he's having a blast!


I don’t believe that there is anything more specific about his age.

“Five hundred times have the red leaves fallen in Mirkwood my home since then," said Legolas, "and but a little while does that seem to us.”

So he’s at least 500. And he’s never seen Lorien so that means he was born after the rise of Dol Guldur 1000 years ago. Plus there’s the matter of that mithril pinafore that Thanduril had made for his little Elven princeling. Can't you just imagine when Legolas was hobbit sized?.


And there is something else about his comment that interested me. They have been on the road only two months. From Legolas’ comment, I would have thought that they had been traveling for years.

When an Elf and a Dwarf travel together it seems like years. Like when you’re traveling cross country with the kids fussing and fighting in the back seat. Oy vey!!


We know from the stay in Lórien time can seem to flow differently around and for the Elves. What are your thoughts about how Legolas might perceive the passage of time as opposed to a mortal?

Years are too short for them so they use yen. It’s kind of like how shorter lived animals like dogs are always in the now. You step out the door for the paper and when you come back your dog greets you like they haven’t seen you for years. Their time perception is just different than ours. The same with Elves versus Men.

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”


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