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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
LOTR.FOTR.Chapter 1 Observations

newrow
The Shire

Apr 18, 4:48am

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LOTR.FOTR.Chapter 1 Observations Can't Post

I have been listening to audio of the history again. Professor Tolkien said that he visited Middle-Earth.I think Middle-Earth is blooming in its spring now.
First, Sackville-Baggins has a tone to it; a tone of spite. Let use the internet to find out more. I find....
George Germain, 1st Viscount Sackville was the Secretary of State for those pesky 13 Coloniesduring the War of the Non-Tax Payers. Just an observation.
Let's go back to the start of the first book. It starts at a tarven of friends talking. Professor Tolkienhad friends throughout his life that met at such halls. Just think of going to a beer hall withno loud music or dozens of teles on the wall. Was the author thinking of his friendsmet before the war?

Think of the contrast of ages too mentioned in that first chapter. Was Professor Tolkien talkingof himself? Including that dialog between Gandalf and Bilbo about the One Ring? First,children are mentioned admiring fireworks. Was this the author coming to terms of his childhoodthat it should be kept as it was? Then Gandalf enters when needed maybe as with the manthat took him in when the mother died? Oh no, I am not suggesting allegory, but one craftsliterature with one's essence. Then the birthday party was in a way to move on as with the One Ring.Bilbo was getting old without friends to finish his long story. Yes, I know of the Inklings, but whatif an author had no friends? I try to write too for public speaking. Sometimes I need a shovelto remove the dust off my drafts.
"Master of Bag End" said by Gandalf refering to Frodo. I smile with the idea of Britain's love oftitles. Reading the author's Wikipedia page encountered that Professor Tolkien "lined" the coronationof a king. Was this material used for the party and the day-after cleaning ritual? So rich of life arein this work of love. That gives in its authentic, geninue depth that keeps it close to one's mind.
Spoons. Why spoons? Okay, I know that it could just be a genius of writing. But I like to learnmore of spoons associated with Britain. Now, I am going on speculation as act of curiousity. Source: https://www.mfordcreech.com/Early_British_Table_Silver_II.html
Spoon is Anglo-Saxon for sliver of wood. I cannot glean how this is important to the story. Silver spoons were gifts to babies of the wealthy. Spoons were carried when traveling. Thus was the gift of spoons to Lobelia an insult? "Wealth is what you crave, so take this gift and get lost."?Yes, I know that Lobelia stole his spoons. Oh! She used her umbrella. One needs an umbrella whentraveling! Us Yankees are ignorant of such treasures from the Great Isle. It could all just be by happen-stanceto be in the story.

Enough for now. As Gandalf says
"I have begin to wonder... I will say no more.... I am going off at once. This is goodbye for the present..."

What do you thing? Meet me at the Green Dragon an hour after dusk.


hanne
Lorien

Apr 18, 5:04pm

Post #2 of 20 (5368 views)
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I enjoy the way you think [In reply to] Can't Post

That is a very interesting lens through which to peek at the story - what thoughts and memories might have been echoing in the writer's mind. We'll never know for sure, but I understand the appeal of wondering, and how that can add richness to the story. It's like imagining yourself into his head.

It can be very vulnerable to write fiction, because your inner life does echo though every page.

I think spoons were one of the valuable things person might own, which is why Lobelia wanted them originally. I think of (apparently historically accurate) scenes in films like Gosford Park where the butler locks up the silver at the end of the day. But yes, Bilbo was reminding her not to steal :)
What is in your dusty manuscript? *buys newrow a pint*


sevilodorf
Grey Havens


Apr 18, 6:39pm

Post #3 of 20 (5364 views)
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Sackville-Baggins and spoons [In reply to] Can't Post

Pure speculation but Sackville was attached to the Baggins name when Bilbo's uncle Longo married Camellia Sackville --- maybe Camellia had the money but Longo (even though a younger son) had the prestige (or possibly the other way around... Camellia with the prestige and Longo with the money) --

Sackville could be a name that implies sacks of money too.

-- As for spoons -- I believe the "born with a silver spoon" reference is suitable here... also silver spoons would be symbols of wealth -- as was the mirror Bilbo gave to Angelica.

In some ways this chapter is a farewell to the whimsy of The Hobbit so Tolkien tidies up Bag End by giving away humorous mathoms.

Fourth Age Adventures at the Inn of the Burping Troll http://burpingtroll.com
Home of TheOneRing.net Best FanFic stories of 2005 and 2006 "The Last Grey Ship" and "Ashes, East Wind, Hope That Rises" by Erin Rua

(Found in Mathoms, LOTR Tales Untold)




newrow
The Shire

Apr 20, 6:18pm

Post #4 of 20 (5163 views)
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Starts a Tab with a Friend [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you Hanne for the pint. Let me get you a block of cheese. You too sevilodorf bring me joy on seeing the first chapter as a closure to The Hobbit; I have not thought it as such until now.
Please remember my writings are off-hand remarks that result from a lack of intelligence to speak of literary mechanisms or lingustic achievements; there is not much I can think to do with this story. Thus, I trek into the wild.

Now I am listening to the second chapter. Gandalf discusses a Ring of Power on mortals. Eventually, the wearer would always be under the Eye. I sense that mortals were given the gift of death that is akin to the gift of forgetfulness. Would you really want to live forever? The Eye demands your attention just like looking at an "eye" picture. Why do you receive a sharp stall in your gaze when looking at an "eye?" Those that are malicous force you to look inward to ignore what the malicous is doing. That brings me to Tom Bombadil. Old Tom is immortal, but the One Ring has no power on him. Is this another oddity of Tom? That is Tom had the free will to forget? During the Council of Elrond the Half-elven mentioned Tom would loose interest on the One Ring and thus misplace it. Sauron's "thought is bent on it." Now, I think is why did Gandalf want to join the Fellowship? Either Gandalf would stay at Rivendell, join, or take the Ring. Which choice would not have the One Ring always on his mind?
Back to the "eye" of the ring. I thought about the thought experiment of watching a pot of water boil. You know, if you can hold the gaze on an object, then do you know then, in a way, move yourself outside of time? If you focus your eye on a object with all intent, you become ignorant of your surroundings and prevent the object of your gaze to change in your perspective. For when the object or water does boil, you need something to make you "blink" to refresh your vision of the world. That is why the Eye of Sauron is lidless. For Sauron does not blink on his focus of being Morgoth reincarnate or to question his morals. The Ringwratihs are in a way always under the gaze of the Eye of Sauron.Now Gandalf is speaking of Gollum in the story. Gollum hated the rays of the sun, but wanted to be under the roots of mountains. The sun changes, but roots of mountains do not - ever over the head of the dweller. Yes, blinking. Bilbo's riddles of grass and the wind made Gollum blink since Gollum was not wholly evil. Now I am thinking of the Witch-king's doubt when he saw Eowyn. The Captain of Nine knew of the prophecy, but such a truth was not able to convince the Lord of the Nazgul to seek escape.

Blinking is in a way a showing of possessing a higher dimension. Was Bilbo loosing part of himself by feeling stretched? Stretch a marshmallow; it will get thinner. Gandalf allowed Bilbo to blink on final time when Bilbo was leaving his home after the party. Friends allow you to blink. Gollum had no friends and thus "made a defense...gnaw bones in the dark." Gollum did get good friends".. and very strong." Listening to Gandalf's treatment on Gollum and getting "bit by bit" of information take me back to Tolkien's training of horse for the Great War. Riders use bits. Just an observation.

What was Tolkien saying in this chapter? Maybe to get friends else forever be a Gollum. Enough for now; I have a gardener near my window making too much noise


Solicitr
Rohan

Apr 20, 8:13pm

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Sackville-Baggins [In reply to] Can't Post

As Shippey points out, adding the Frenchified -ville to the plain Anglo-Saxon Sack- suggests a pretentious, social-climbing nature, over and above the rather hoity-toity hyphenization. It also calls to mind the real-life cul-de-sac (meaning "end of a bag," Bag-end*)- a phrase not actually found in French but beloved of pretentious British (and American) realtors.

Note that the Shire's richest and most aristocratic family were content with plain old Took. They had nothing to prove.

----------------------

*Bag-end was the name of Tolkien's aunt's farm, where he spent holidays as a boy.... and knowing Jane Neave, she probably knew exactly what she was mocking when she came up with the name!


(This post was edited by Solicitr on Apr 20, 8:17pm)


Kimi
Forum Admin / Moderator


Apr 21, 2:20am

Post #6 of 20 (5121 views)
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Veering slightly from the topic, but [In reply to] Can't Post

"cul-de-sac" does indeed exist in French, and in France itself. TORn was the first place I ever saw it suggested (this was nigh on 20 years ago) that the phrase isn't found in France, and I was rather startled, as I'd not long before that been in France and remembered street signs marked "cul de sac". A search on a few French language sites returns many hits for the phrase, in the anatomical, figurative and geographical usages, going back to the C19th at least.

That aside, I fully agree that the way the Sackville-Bagginses use a Frenchified version of the family name does indeed suggest social climbing, especially when contrasted with the solid Bagginses of Bag End, and the Tooks.


The Passing of Mistress Rose
My historical novels

Do we find happiness so often that we should turn it off the box when it happens to sit there?

- A Room With a View


(This post was edited by Kimi on Apr 21, 2:24am)


Solicitr
Rohan

Apr 21, 1:50pm

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OK [In reply to] Can't Post

Then I was led astray by Shippey, who makes the claim that "cul-de-sac" isn't found in French.


hanne
Lorien

Apr 22, 4:43pm

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Thanks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you for the cheese, newrow. You are a fascinating thinker.


Lidless as a metaphor for totally committed --that's intriguing. We know from the end of the story that Sauron was not forgiven. Perhaps that was because he had no foothold for good or change left in him.


noWizardme
Valinor


Apr 23, 6:21pm

Post #9 of 20 (4789 views)
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Spoons. Why spoons? [In reply to] Can't Post

My own guess is that the spoons were part of the ongoing intra-Baggins feud about who (should have) inherited what. The sort of thing that, as a visitor to a small, inward looking rural community, you regret accidentely asking about, just when you think you'd got of lightly with a ghoulish story about Frodo's parents getting drowned.

I note that Bilbo is enjoying having a parting shot at a lot of people - safe now, when he's no longer got to live with them!

Alternatively, if one wants to be just practical, a box of siver spoons might be a practical target for Lightfingered Lobelian the Cutlery Criminal.

Either way it subtly sets up some Shire life problems that seem funny now but will turn nasty later - like whatever it was that now means the Sandymans don't like the Gamgees.

~~~~~~
"Go down to the shovel store and take your pick." Traditional prank played on dwarves when they start down the mine.


newrow
The Shire

Apr 23, 7:24pm

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There and Back Again [In reply to] Can't Post

My goodness! All good points especially with cul-de-sac. I can see now that the Viscount link can be wholly incorrect. Were not the French
and English related in the monarchy and thus bring about its own internal affairs? At least the issue with relatives for me helps understand/preparefor other parts of the story such as: difference of the elves (Lothlorien and Mirkwood), dwarf v elf, Rohan v Gondor, Minas Tirith v Minas Ithil.Bree hobbits v Shire hobbits, big folk v small folk, goblins hating sunlight v uruks. There are many contrast. Tolkien paves the way for thereaders to digest the change. Also, it helps me see how the elves are moving away while the men fight it out. Yes, Lorien was attacked,but the reader is focused on the race of man. Oh, and the men of the mountain that became the dead v the Corsairs. Too many to countlike a lad ready to make jam with the strawberries in spring.
I like it even more that so much of the story is interlink; I just thought about this now. e.g.part at the beginning then later at the Field of Cormallen, Frodo says goodbye to Bag End twice,Bilbo leaves Frodo to the unknown, but later joins. Bless my beard!


(This post was edited by newrow on Apr 23, 7:25pm)


newrow
The Shire

Apr 24, 11:26pm

Post #11 of 20 (4628 views)
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Chapter 2: Doors of the Past [In reply to] Can't Post

Listening to Chapter 2 has me wondering again about the mystery told by Gandalf. First. Gandalf jokes of blowing the door through the hill is marvelous! Frodo ignored the door after Lobelia left thinking that it was her returning. The Witch-king blows a door down at Minas Tirith. I like that a main character is present with such humour even in times of trouble. Do you really want to be with a person that is "always happy?"

Then Gandalf asked Frodo what he knew of the ring. Was this a subtle test on Frodo? That is Frodo would tell lies that even Gandalf see through his long eye-brows. Was it a birthday gift? Did Tolkien glim such literary tools from old books? That art of argument is lost in this age. Gandalf, before leaving, tells Frodo not to use the ring for vanishing and thus cause rumours to spread. Did Gandalf have an idea about big folk on the border buying leaf? Likely not. Gandalf was smart not to think of Frodo's ring until later. Also smart to leave Frodo soon on the morning after the party and not to be tempted by the magic ring. Did Gandalf have knowledge of past examples of feuds when a magic ring was found? Remember that on the Last March of the West to the Morannon, the heralds' calls first mentioned the Captains of the West, then Aragorn II changed it to the King. Was Aragorn II misleading Sauron on assuming the One Ring corrupted him (Aragorn) to put down all rivals? Else Sauron would be more apt to think it is a trap. Now, I need to link this to my life else all is lost as a dwarven ring of power. [For me, I need to be aware when someone close to me receives a gift or present that I wish I would have been given. A job promotion, contest winning. Then when I recognize such a moment in a friend's life, nicely excuse myself from the scene allowing the friend to enjoy the moment without a hint of jealously on my part]]

Why did Sauron use elvish characters on the One Ring? Okay, I think I am getting too far into this thinking. There is an echo: "Just enjoy the story." It does look good to see the characters and adds to the mystique of the story seeing such an image. Hmm. Maybe Sauron wanted to dominated and corrupt even the languages of the world? That is the farthest I can go with such a question. Conquerers do like to name their spoils after the defeated. Think of the state names in the USA.
Expect me when you see me. -Gandalf


noWizardme
Valinor


Apr 25, 6:40pm

Post #12 of 20 (4548 views)
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Why did Sauron use elvish characters on the One Ring? [In reply to] Can't Post

I like your idea of Sauron enjoying using elvish. I think there is also a plausible technical reason - the language not being the same as the writing system.

Here's what Isildur recorded about the inscription (according to Gandalf's account in Council of Elrond):


Quote
"It is fashioned in an elven-script of Eregion, for they have no letters in Mordor for such subtle work; but the language is unknown to me. I deem it to be a tongue of the Black Land, since it is foul and uncouth. What evil it saith I do not know; but I trace here a copy of it, lest it fade beyond recall."


By the time we read this, we already know that it is in 'the language of Mordor' because Gandalf tells Frodo that in your current chapter. Then (back in Council of Elrond) Gandalf recites the verse in the Black Speech, to general consternation.

What to make of Isildur's "they have no letters in Mordor for such subtle work"? Clearly it is possible to say the Ring verse in the Black Speech, so it's not that the thoughts involved are too subtle, or the sounds can't be made in that language. Perhaps the Black Speech does not exist as a written language - many real-world languages either haven't, or have ended up adpoting a writing system originally from another culture. For example, we're corresponding in English, but because of History, we're using a Roman writing system and not the Anglo-Saxon or Norse runes that folks living in what is now England might have used in earlier times.

Am I making sense? If not, an example might help - this website http://haikuguy.com/issa/random.php? will show you a random one of Issu's haiku. You get it:
1) in Japanese characters,
2) as a rendering of the Japanese into Latin characters, and then
3) as a translation into English.

I think we're supposed to imagine that the inscriber of the One Ring has done the equivalent of (2) on the Ring - used elvish script to render the appropriate sounds of the Black Speech, rather than translating it (i.e. rendering the thoughts as if they had been composed in elvish).

~~~~~~
"Go down to the shovel store and take your pick." Traditional prank played on dwarves when they start down the mine.


Hamfast Gamgee
Grey Havens

Apr 26, 9:50am

Post #13 of 20 (4462 views)
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This chapter is probably [In reply to] Can't Post

The nearest we get to the Lotr been in the Hobbit style. Although it does not quite get to the 'I, you,' bit. Although there is one paragraph where Tolkien comes perilously close but just pulls himself up!


Solicitr
Rohan

Apr 26, 1:54pm

Post #14 of 20 (4443 views)
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more likely [In reply to] Can't Post

Sauron adopted them for the Ring for just the reason Gandalf said: the Tengwar were suited for very fine work (note that the tengwar were not specifically for writing Quenya; Feanor invented them as a universal system which could represent the sounds of any spoken language, hence their rapid adoption by the Sindar in preference to their native Cirth, and, by the late Third Age, the tengwar being the universal alphabet for speakers of Westron (Common Speech).

Tolkien never says whether BS was ordinarily written with Tengwar, or if the angular Cirth were preferred, or even if Sauron invented his own alphabet. But I'm disposed to think tengwar were used, because however much Sauron intended BS to be the universal language of his minions it never actually caught on,* except among the "headquarters staff"- and since these tended to be Men of Numenorean extraqction, or those from regions once dominated by Numenor, the tengwar would have been the familiar alphabet.

Frodo couldn't read the Ring-inscription in part because they Tengwar were in the old mode of Second Age (probably that of Eregion), but mostly because the language was Black Speech. You can transliterate the inscription in I.2 for yourself: it matches the Black Speech version recited by Gandalf in II.2 (with a mistake!)

-----------------
*Orcs retained their own tribal dialects, and (as observed in III.3) wound up using CS to interact with other tribes. The string of insults directed by the Mordor-orc at Ugluk is a sample of Orkish, not Black Speech.


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Apr 26, 11:05pm

Post #15 of 20 (4433 views)
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Proposed: The Hobbit's style is more modern. [In reply to] Can't Post

It breaks the fourth wall, as they say in television.


Treachery, treachery I fear; treachery of that miserable creature.

But so it must be. Let us remember that a traitor may betray himself and do good that he does not intend.


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newrow
The Shire

Apr 29, 7:42pm

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Good and fine points [In reply to] Can't Post

noWizardme. Yes, I agree with you that Sauron may not want to dominate the language as I suggested, but as you wrote wanted the black speech vocalize in the inscription.Yes too there are cyphers in the world that are meant to tell a story without sound. I did not think of that.

For some time I thought Sauron used elvish in case he lost the ring. Then the finder would be curious on the inscription and thus keep the trinket. ButSauron would have no such thought of loosing the ring. I think that is why he did not want a gemstone either; he thought little of his slaves.
Thinking a fresh now, may reciting the script on the ring summoned some power of the ring? A gateway to truly mastering it? Nevermind.Remember though that Sam could listen to black speech.
noWizardme: your reply has helped me with the writing. Thank you.


newrow
The Shire

Apr 29, 8:00pm

Post #17 of 20 (4366 views)
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Second Insight [In reply to] Can't Post

I value your insight Solicitir on the Second Age. What you say makes sense.
Can you and others help me on the next plot point of the Rings of the Power?It seems to me that the accounting of the rings was rashed for the characters to digest.
Three dwarven rings were recovered and the elven rings are hidden. I would have doubtif I was sitting in the council with my beard touching the floor.
I think the attendees at the Council of Elrond were led to believe each knew the locationof the elven rings: Grey Havens with Galdor present, Rivendell, and Lorien.I like the fascination on the work needed to know that three were recovered and the restlost to dragon fire. Imagine the investigation needed by the White Council, and the miles walked.The dwarven rings I assumed were recovered or lost after TA 1000. That then would helpwith the White Council finding truth on the whereabouts. The lost of a dwarf king by dragonfire would be known to those afar. I think that Saruman acquire that knowledge beforehe kept near to Gondor. My oppinion is that Saruman travelled some distance eastwardwith the blue wizards before returning west (1. explosive powder, aka. China in the east,2. control over mortal spirits (one blue wizard I think was in the group of Irmo). Sarumanstole from the other wizards I think. He could control the Crebain like Radagast may be able to do.Just my opinion.

The Ring of Thror was obvious. How would one know that dragon fire was the responsiblecause on four rings? Would such breath annilate all those in a quarter mile like a nova? Did someonespeak with the heir of the king lost in the fire then inferring from the angry, bitter dwarfthat the ring was lost? Thror did bemoan that nonstop in the dungeons of Dol Guldur.Was the dragon too destroyed? The One Ring had its effect on a volcano even with a maia's spirit inside.I think that all the rings captured were close to Mordor (e.g. Blue Mountains, Thror). The otherswere destroyed by dragon fire due to expansion of the dwarf realms in the east and south.Thror could have lost his ring to Smaug. That golden drake would take to time for riddles with an usurper.I would think the investigator would compare the dwarf king's greed to the time before and afterthe expected moment of the dragon fire & ring confrontation. Thorin II did not want an army.
But neither did Thror.With that said. Could the Balrog wear a dwarven ring? He should be able to withstand a first age dragon's fire,but that fire inside the maia destroy the dwarven ring. Just thinking.


Hamfast Gamgee
Grey Havens

May 4, 9:01am

Post #18 of 20 (4171 views)
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I suppose that one could look at it the opposite way [In reply to] Can't Post

And ask which of the Hobbit chapters is similiar to the style of Lotr. I think the Battle of Five Armies comes close.


noWizardme
Valinor


May 6, 5:37pm

Post #19 of 20 (4099 views)
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Ring Accounting [In reply to] Can't Post

The Rings were a collaboration between Second-Age elves and Sauron. So the Three elven rings weren't lost and then recovered: they'd been made by the elf Celebrimbor (who we later see in the credits on the gates of Moria), and he hid them when he realized that Sauron had made a sort of Admin Ring with superuser rights (or something like it).

At the time of the Council of Elrond, the keepers of the Rings are Gandalf, Elrond and Galadriel (they all wear their rings openly at the every end of LOTR, when the rings have become just jewelry).

I don't think we ever do find out how Gandalf has discovered the whereabouts of all the Seven Rings - as you say, it was probably a very long research project. Anyhow, we're asked to take his word for it. It comes up as part of an effort Gandalf is making in The Council of Elrond to prove by elimination that Frodo's Ring must be the One Ring (must be a Great Ring because it prolongs mortal life, but can't be one of the 9, 7 or 3, so the only Great Ring left is...). The problem with that, it seems to me, is that this proof works too well - reading the Council of Elrond, it's completely convincing that Frodo must, by elimination alone, have The One Ring. So I wonder why Gandalf didn't figure that out earlier. Perhaps if Gandalf told the Council that he's not been able to account for the Seven (or has only just completed the tally), then that would work better. But,as far as I know, Gandalf's work on finding the Seven was not recent - certainly the bit he talks about happened before his adventure with Bilbo.
Gandalf then changes tack in his 'presentation' to the Council - and now describes how he got two separate positive proofs about Frodo's Ring - by researching where and how it was found, and by discovering the inscription. At that point, his earlier proof-by-elimination becomes irrelevant, because his positive proof is conclusive. I suppose the result of all this is that the Council doesn't need to probe the quality of Gandalf's research about the Seven Rings - it's clear without doing so that Frodo has the One Ring. As far as I know, one could imagine that Gandalf is mistaken and that there is still a Dwaven Ring (or more than one) around. Or even that the Balrog's got one. But I don't think it would make any difference to the story?

So in all, a more organized 'presentation' by Gandalf would cut to the chase about the Ring inscription. Of course, Tolkien has his own authorial reason for letting Gandalf ramble on redundantly - he gets many times the exposition that way. And it reads fairly naturally - Gandalf responds to questions and interruptions, sounds like he's giving an off-the-cuff explanation, and anyway I strongly suspect he likes to give a long talk, so that people can fully realise how clever he is Smile.

How do we know that dragon-fire destroys Rings? Search me - one for the Mythbusters, I think. More seriously, I think dwarven ringbearers being nuked by a dragon is significant in other ways. The Nine Rings that Sauron gave out were a trap - yes you get eternal life, but as a wraith, blindly obedient to Sauron. The feature that sold the Seven Rings - that the holder becomes amazingly successful in acquiring gold - becomes a curse in a different way, by attracting a dragon and a super-heated end to the ringbearer.

~~~~~~
"Go down to the shovel store and take your pick." Traditional prank played on dwarves when they start down the mine.


newrow
The Shire

May 12, 6:50pm

Post #20 of 20 (3753 views)
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The Road does Ever On and On [In reply to] Can't Post

noWizardme you craft a balance response that removes my uncertantity and yet pushes me to know more. Thank you.
Gandalf does use logic in a majestic manner. I feel it is to encourage others to do the same allowing
a better acceptance to the truth when the truth arrives. Does one not go wayward when emotions are control?Bilbo and Gollum wanted the ring to be a present. Isildur thought the ring was a weregild. Saruman tooa gift in the palantir. Also remember Eomer encountering the Three Hunters. Eomer had a duty totake the three immediately to his king, but Aragorn II presented himself through his many titles allowingEomer to make a judgement not only with logic but with truth.
Yes, Gandalf had the place to have his words be fully trusted. It appeared to be Gandalf stretchedhis place to "trust me to trust me through proving my point" which is redundant.
The dwarven ring sidetrek may have been avoided, but if a dwarf attendee had any inklingFrodo's ring was one of the seven, then would the dwarf not feel obligated to own it? Or
Boromir's logic to use the "dwarven" ring make sense? Use the ring to gain treasure to
pay for heroe's, as said in The Hobbit. What a great phrased lost in that first chapter.Were not heroes out east and south fighting wars in preparation for the war with Gondor?
Remember, with the new movie out and which I have not seen, is not some of those late nightInkling argruments present at the Council of Elrond. Is not Lord of the Rings about Tolkien in a way?That is a talk that can last us through summer deep into winter.
My next topic will be about the scariest moment, in my opinion, when reading LOTR the second time.
For the worse, for the worseWorse is a terrible word.

 
 

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