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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 16 2019, 8:31pm
Post #51 of 77
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Tolkien himself skipped past most of the journey to Rivendell in The Hobbit; only including enough of the uneventful parts to add some flavor. At the same time, the audience needs to be given some idea of the distance that has been traveled, if only a vague one. This, I thought, was one of the problems with the journey through Mirkwood in the films. We should get an impression of a great deal of time spent in the forest, to the point that the company's supplies are exhausted by the time of their capture.
Jackson and his cohorts, though, decided that the company needed a more dramatic reason to speed things along; hence, a chase. Granted, this also allowed them to establish a nemesis early on for Thorin. Maybe not necessary, but desirable to the filmmakers.
"I reject your reality and substitute my own." - Adam Savage
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 16 2019, 8:34pm)
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Chen G.
Gondor
Apr 16 2019, 8:36pm
Post #52 of 77
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Mirkwood is one of my favourite setpieces. It uses light, colour palette, composition, movement, editing and sound - all those things which are quintessentially cinematic - to convey the disorienting nature of Mirkwood.
Its one of the things I love about The Desolation of Smuag: the setting of Wilderland doesn't really feel like anything we've seen in The Lord of the Rings. Its differet and wild in its own peculiar way. Love it!
(This post was edited by Chen G. on Apr 16 2019, 8:37pm)
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Solicitr
Gondor
Apr 16 2019, 8:39pm
Post #53 of 77
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not necessary, but desirable to the filmmakers.
You said a mouthful right there
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kzer_za
Lorien
Apr 16 2019, 11:36pm
Post #54 of 77
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I agree, I don't see Bilbo as a secondary character in the trilogy
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Yes in DoS, he probably is, with the tedious and overblown confrontation with Smaug unfortunately upstaging his big moment. But Unexpected Journey is definitely his movie.
And then there's Battle of Five Armies. While Bilbo and Thorin are kind of co-mains here, I do believe it's ultimately more Bilbo's movie. Thorin's descent into madness and recovery is very good, but is so larger-than-life and mythic that it wouldn't really be relatable on its own - we see it through Bilbo's eyes, and it's no coincidence that all of Thorin's most "human" scenes are with Bilbo (the camerawork also subtly conveys this connection). The ending is also very Bilbo-centric, to the point that it's even been criticized for focusing too much on him!
Underneath all the Jacksonian excess (some of which I enjoy, some are terrible) and bad love dialogue, I find that Bilbo's character remains the heart of Five Armies and still keeps it grounded. Bilbo/Thorin is my favorite character relationship in all six movies, and to a lesser degree the Gandalf relationship is also very good. It is my unpopular favorite of the trilogy.
(This post was edited by kzer_za on Apr 16 2019, 11:48pm)
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lurtz2010
Rohan
Apr 17 2019, 12:26am
Post #55 of 77
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I think TH would’ve been better received by the world if it had been only two films
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Even people who haven’t read the book complain about over bloat etc plus I just think the two movies would’ve been tighter and felt more satisfying as two stand alone films. I would love to see how it would’ve been as just two, having AUJ go right up to the barrel escape would’ve been such an epic adventure.
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skyofcoffeebeans
Rohan
Apr 17 2019, 1:19am
Post #56 of 77
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The barrels chase, with an additional conflict between Azog and Thorin, intercut with the discovery of Sauron at Dol Guldor, would've been a satisfying end to an epic journey to Erebor.
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Chen G.
Gondor
Apr 17 2019, 7:07am
Post #57 of 77
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But it just doesn't sound right
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An Unexpected Journey already takes forever, but in the two-film version it would have been a third longer or so. I can't see it flowing very well. Plus, I like that we have a first film wholly free of the scourge of Sauron. If every movie has the entire world at stake, that can get dull quite quickly.
Plus, the cliffhanger with Bard sounds really lame. You have a film which tells a certain story and than you climax certain elements of that story, and you leave others hanging (Gandalf is caught, Kili is wounded). All par for the course of a film in a series such as this. But you than have a climax which has nothing to do with any of those narrative elements.
The two-film version simply sounds too overstuffed. Plus, the filmmakers didn't have time to craft it. Jackson felt that, even late during principal photography, the script for the second half of There and Back Again was still a bit raw, and it certainly wasn't previsualized in any real capacity when shooting began.
(This post was edited by Chen G. on Apr 17 2019, 7:09am)
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lurtz2010
Rohan
Apr 17 2019, 8:00am
Post #58 of 77
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They would’ve made it work though
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Even at comic con 2012 only like 5-6 months before release they were promoting AUJ as the first of two films. They made that banner and had toys and everything ready. I remember Philippa Boyens saying it feels like a complete journey with more to come. I know they didn’t have film2 fully worked out yet but they would’ve made that work too.
I know what you mean about it seeming like there would be too much if it did end after the barrel escape but a lot of stuff in AUJ was filmed in pickups after they decided to do three films. But still even without that newer stuff it’s hard to imagine how they would’ve done it, but they did it somehow.
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Chen G.
Gondor
Apr 17 2019, 9:43am
Post #59 of 77
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The pickups for An Unexpected Journey amounted to a few extra days of filming at the end of July 2012. I think it was about three beats: Balin relying the entire Battle of Moria flashback in the Lone-lands (instead of at Beorn's), the climax on the Carrock and Bilbo nearly falling in the High Pass.
The 2013 pickups only included material which appeared in films 2 and 3, and it was hardly a "ton": it was nine weeks of shooting with one unit and a splinter unit. I'd be surprised if they churned out 90 minutes of film.
Most the material was stuff for the third film, a lot of it was stuff which would have appeared in the second of the two films, anyway, but that the director and writers simply could get to during principal photography. For instance, the Ravenhill skirmish.
(This post was edited by Chen G. on Apr 17 2019, 9:46am)
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lurtz2010
Rohan
Apr 17 2019, 10:56am
Post #60 of 77
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What more they did in pick ups hardly matters, the point is they did have a solid plan for two films to begin with and PJ wasn’t even sure the studio would say yes to making it three. But like I’ve said I find it hard to imagine how it was done especially with things like the Frodo scenes or the long warg chase before Rivendell which were both planned for the original first film, then going by the first trailer it looked like the high fells and finding Thrain was all going to be in it too. That’s a lot of stuff for one movie.
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skyofcoffeebeans
Rohan
Apr 17 2019, 1:04pm
Post #61 of 77
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An Unexpected Journey wouldn't take forever in the two-film version
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They'd have been forced to cut the useless Frodo scene and go straight from the prologue into Good Morning. That's the one hiccup in all of Act I. The other is the Moria flashback that prevents the film from moving forward. Relaying Azog's backstory after he is revealed when there's room for a breather at the end of act 2 , instead of making a huge "mystery" out of the entirety of the first film, would've made the film flow so much smoother. Furthermore, all the beats with Radagast and the White Council are intrinsically linked with the climax of the film. There are setups and payoffs.
It would not have dragged as you describe. They would have been forced to make editing decisions that would have made for a rousing, fast-paced spectacle of a film.
I also don't think the ending is lame. You keep describing Bard as if he is the only piece of action in the narrative, but the reveal of Sauron and the capture of Gandalf is hugely significant in the arc of the entire story. In this version, we wouldn't even know it was Sauron until we see the Eye, so pretty much the entirety of the film would be free of Sauron's scourge.
We would also still get Bilbo and Thorin's recapitulation of their friendship, just at the river bank overlooking Erebor as opposed to the Carrok. I firmly believe this would have made for a better movie, and it would've flowed like a roller-coaster as opposed to a grind.
And people who love their extended editions would probably still get to see Radagast saving little animals and vomiting stick bugs and Elijah Wood looking out of place.
We're not even talking about Film 2, which I also think would've hugely improved from the structure.
edit - For the record, the film seen in theaters would not have been more than 2 hrs 50 minutes, based on Warner's demonstrable interference with the film's final cuts. A LOT of material would have been cut, and rightly so. The extended editon would probably be similar to what was added to ROTK, making the final edit something like 3 hrs 40 mins before credits.
(This post was edited by skyofcoffeebeans on Apr 17 2019, 1:08pm)
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Chen G.
Gondor
Apr 17 2019, 1:09pm
Post #62 of 77
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We certainly would have known Sauron's identity
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Shortly after the White Council scene, when Gandalf would go the High Fells.
I do think that its better to have Azog's backstory revealed early, rather than late. It doesn't sound right to have it only be relayed in Beorn's House.
While I'm sure they would have edited the film down to suit, we'd still end up with a long movie (probably three-hours theatrical cut, three-and-a-half extended - like King Kong) and probably a breathless one, at that.
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skyofcoffeebeans
Rohan
Apr 17 2019, 1:22pm
Post #63 of 77
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We would have known the Nine had left the tombs, and that's about it. For all Gandalf knows, the Witch King is the Necromancer.
Remember that the scene between Gandalf and Radagast was part of the pickups. That's where we get the speech about the Enemy returning and Azog being his servant all comes out. In the original script, we didn't even know who Azog was yet, though we've seen him chasing the dwarves outside Rivendell (remember that he was originally played by some guy in prosthetics; the new CGI version tears his retconned character apart on Weathertop).
I really don't think it's a good idea to, after containing your first act in a house before releasing your characters on a quest, to put the narrative on pause for twenty minutes while first introducing backstory that is not relevant to the character's immediate surroundings or actions, and THEN taking the time to introducing a tangent subplot hundreds of miles away that will actually never affect either of your main characters. It grinds the film to a halt every single time. You can have one of them, maybe, but not both.
While I love Balin's relaying of the Battle of Moria, it has no place being in the first act of the film. It desperately needs to move and yet its placement here is the only way it can work in the trilogy structure.
It makes total sense to build up the mystery through action:
A. Orcs attack the Company on the road. Why?
B. The Great Goblin reveals a mysterious character is after Thorin's head. Who?
C. We learn Azog is the character pursuing them on the eastern side of the Misty Mountains. Why?
D. Balin relays backstory to answer all of these questions AFTER a period of intense action. It answers questions. The actual backstory doesn't provoke any.
E. This culminates in an action sequence between Azog and Thorin during the barrels sequence.
It flows much better, I think than:
A. Balin needlessly relays a bunch of backstory that has no immediate relevance. This character will obviously return and hunt Thorin.
B. Orcs attack the company on the Road. Why? Because Azog is leading them, obviously.
C. The Great Goblin reveals Azog is after Thorin. We already know this.
D. Azog and Thorin meet for the first time on the eastern side of the Misty Mountains in a climactic confrontation.
(This post was edited by skyofcoffeebeans on Apr 17 2019, 1:24pm)
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Chen G.
Gondor
Apr 17 2019, 1:28pm
Post #64 of 77
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If I recall correctly, Gandalf relying to Radagast that Azog is the leader of Sauron's army was NOT a pickup. Like I said, the storm-clouds which Gandalf looks towards in that scene were going to be the ones that force the company into shelter in (what would have been) the very next scene.
Azog's story wasn't going to be revealed out-of-the-blue in Beorn's House. First, we were going to get a glimpse of the battle of Moria in the prologue. Then, some hints during that scene in the lone-lands, than we'll have Orcs chasing the company, Thorin confronting Azog and finally the full explaination.
However, I think it does work early in the film. It dispells the mystery, but it creates suspense instead, because we the audience know something that the characters do not.
While I agree that the combination of the flashback to Azog and than the Dol Guldur subplot stall the film, trimming them a bit and perhaps rearranging them slightly was the answer - not moving Azog's backstory to Beorn's House. It never made sense to me to do so. Its too far down the line for that kind of backstory-dump.
(This post was edited by Chen G. on Apr 17 2019, 1:30pm)
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skyofcoffeebeans
Rohan
Apr 17 2019, 1:37pm
Post #65 of 77
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What's weird about the films in their final form is they like to pretend there is a mystery, but there isn't– because Azog is revealed so early, we know how this is going to play out. Because Galadriel and Gandalf freaking namedrop Sauron in the DOS pickups, Sauron's reveal is not a surprise, even though it is framed that way. All of this was pickups.
There was a different ending to that High Fells sequence that we haven't seen. Gandalf would have come to a different conclusion because it's a different point in the narrative. He also wouldn't have known who Azog was. The dialogue between him and Radagast must have played out differently and was rewritten to suit its placement as the midpoint of DOS.
I think rearranging them does help. It helps, pacing-wise to go straight from the pony montage to the rain scene about the Istari, Radagast's intro, the arrival at the farmhouse, and THEN the info-dump at that same farmhouse if you must have it. There is at least some conflict between Gandalf and Thorin introduced before moving to yet another scene without any conflict.
I also don't agree that it's too far down the line for backstory. At this point in the film, we would have had a maddening series of action sequences– Gollum in the caves, the Goblin chase and death of the Great Goblin, Azog's attack, heck, there's even a bear attack. The comfort of Beorn's house is the perfect time to get the company's bearings and answer some questions before moving into the film's final act. In that way, it's a bit similar to the Lorien sequence in Fellowship, though Bilbo has no direct relevance ala the Mirror sequence.
(This post was edited by skyofcoffeebeans on Apr 17 2019, 1:38pm)
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Chen G.
Gondor
Apr 17 2019, 1:51pm
Post #66 of 77
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for those who have never watched or read The Lord of the Rings beforehand. For them it could work as a mystery.
The Azog one isn't really a mystery in the finished film, and it plays more on suspense, while also showing how Thorin is deluding himself, which was a character touch I liked.
Also, when does Galadriel namedrop Sauron in footage from the pickups? I don't believe Blanchett shot anything for the pickups, at all.
(This post was edited by Chen G. on Apr 17 2019, 1:54pm)
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skyofcoffeebeans
Rohan
Apr 17 2019, 2:00pm
Post #67 of 77
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is that the characters know, not the audience. In its final form, Galadriel and Gandalf both believe that the Enemy has returned even before they learn much of anything, and that sacrifices the mystery of what Gandalf finds at Dol Guldur. Whereas as it was written, Gandalf isn't sure about the identity of the Necromancer until he's confronted with the Eye itself.
Galadriel's voiceover to Gandalf by Thranduil's statue of his wife was written for the pickups as a quick pick-me-up for the audience who might have forgotten the first film. I don't believe it was ever intended to be a part of the 2-film version. It's the first time that we are led to believe that she thinks Sauron himself is returning. This isn't inferred in their scenes in An Unexpected Journey, as far as I can recall.
And the original construction of the Azog subplot is still present in the final film, even if it is not quite no longer a mystery. That's why it's odd. A lot of the material is presented as a mystery, asking questions of which we already know the answer. Yes, we knowing information that the characters know is technically suspense, but I don't think it quite works– perhaps because Azog is so far separated from the characters, he never seems like an actual threat until he makes contact with the Company. There's a reason why a ticking time bomb under the table is a common metaphor for suspense, rather than a ticking time bomb hundreds of miles from the table.
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Legomir
Rivendell
Apr 17 2019, 2:02pm
Post #68 of 77
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Because I'm a huge nerd, I've actually used the call sheets that they show in the special features for The Hobbit and put them in scene order to try and see what the original order of scenes from the two-film version during principle photography was.
I'm sure I've missed some things, but it does have some interesting information. For example, it looks like originally the Radagast-in-Dol-Guldur sequence was not going to be a flashback, because it is listed as Scene 69 when the Dwarves rotating on the spit during the Trollshaws scene is Scene 80. Lots of little things like that, though it would probably be a bit much to paste the whole thing on here.
Though, one thing I do want to put down is the structure for the escape from the Woodland Realm (which we all know was the climax of Film One). I'm paraphrasing here:
1. Scene 175: Dwarves float in barrels
2. Scene 176: NOT LISTED
3. Scene 177: Gandalf moves through Dol Guldur and is attacked by Thrain
4. Scene 178: The Orc battle at the river gate
5. Scene 179: Gandalf keeps fighting Thrain and breaks the spell
6. Scene 180: The Orc battle in the rapids
7. Scene 181: Gandalf tries to get Thrain out. Azog kills Thrain. Sauron attacks and captures Gandalf.
8. Scene 182: The Dwarves get out of the barrels at the shore
The other most interesting thing for me is the location of the Battle of Dol Guldur. I might be missing things but the last one I saw before that was
Scene 214: The Master and Alfrid plot against Bard at breakfast
But then Scenes 228 to 235 are the Battle of Dol Guldur.
The next scene I saw listed after that was Scene 248: Thorin leads the group across the hills and they see the ruins of Dale in the distance.
That's a very interesting placement for that fight, apparently right smack in the middle of Lake-Town. I'm assuming that after that Gandalf disappears until after Smaug's death, because the scene of him, Radagast, and Beorn arriving at Rhosgobel (Scene 305) comes somewhere between Scene 301: The survivors coming ashore and Kili leaving Tauriel, and Scene 306: The refugees prepare to leave the shore; Tauriel and Legolas ride away.
Fun stuff.
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skyofcoffeebeans
Rohan
Apr 17 2019, 2:09pm
Post #69 of 77
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I don't know about anyone else
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But I would love to see the entire call sheet as you've transcribed it. You could post it in here; if not, I'd love to see it.
That's funny; I'd always thought that we'd first see the army leaving Dol Guldur after Thorin namedrops Gandalf at Dale, and that we'd return to the Battle of Dol Guldur just after the Company enters the Mountain and before Bilbo meets Smaug. This places it much earlier in the film indeed.
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Solicitr
Gondor
Apr 17 2019, 2:45pm
Post #70 of 77
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Is that this farrago contains not one drop of actual Tolkien. It's all juvenile fan-fic. Bad juvenile fan-fic. It doesn't even include the nominal title character, excised from the first-act finale of his own story!
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Chen G.
Gondor
Apr 17 2019, 3:11pm
Post #71 of 77
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I actually think *that* was a pickup
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I'd always thought that we'd first see the army leaving Dol Guldur after Thorin namedrops Gandalf at Dale.
I'm actually not sure that was part of the original shoot. They re-did some the dialogue before the entrance to Mirkwood during pickups. I believe the "do not enter the mountain without me" was part of that rewrite.
Personally, I always saw it as a subtle setup for the conflict at the end of the film. To me, that line was clearly saying that Gandalf meant to sort Smaug out, should he be awakened. Hence the idea that some kind of fight with Smaug will ensue.
(This post was edited by Chen G. on Apr 17 2019, 3:15pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 17 2019, 5:50pm
Post #72 of 77
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...this farrago contains not one drop of actual Tolkien. It's all juvenile fan-fic. Bad juvenile fan-fic. It doesn't even include the nominal title character, excised from the first-act finale of his own story!
That's not 100% true. Gandalf's council of white wizards (revealed in LotR to be the White Council) does come to Dol Guldur; though, in the book this takes place around the time of the company's escape from the Wood-elves.
"I reject your reality and substitute my own." - Adam Savage
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Chen G.
Gondor
Apr 17 2019, 9:23pm
Post #73 of 77
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Its clear to me that the inspiration exceeds The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings
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Its clear that the filmmakers read The Quest of Erebor and/or the Annotated Hobbit as they were shaping sequences like The White Council, the Dol Guldur sequences and the Thrain storyline.
While they couldn't use that material, its clear they were inspired by it. With the exception of Gandalf smoking during the council, the dynamic between him and Saruman is just like the description in The Unfinished Tales. The story of Thrain is very evocative of the descriptions therein, as well.
So too is the idea that Erebor is "a stragetic position" to "reclaiming the lands of Angmar in the North. If that fell kingdom should rise again, Rivendell, Lorien, the Shire - Even Gondor itself will fall."
While in the Quest of Erebor, Smaug and the Orcs of the Misty Mountains are not allied with Sauron, its made clear that in time they would have become allies. And certainly, making the battle Sauron's initiative allows to explain the geopolitical significance of the battle much more clearly in a film.
According to the Quest of Erebor
I knew that Sauron had arisen again and would soon declare himself, and I knew that he was preparing for a great war. How would he begin? Would he try first to reoccupy Mordor, or would he first attack the chief strongholds of his enemies? I thought then, and I am sure now, that to attack Lórien and Rivendell[..]The state of things in the North was very bad. The Kingdom under the Mountain and the strong Men of Dale were no more. To resist any force that Sauron might send to regain the northern passes in the mountains and the old lands of Angmar there were only the Dwarves of the Iron Hills, and behind them lay a desolation and a Dragon. The Dragon Sauron might use with terrible effect. Often I said to myself: "I must find some means of dealing with Smaug."[..]the power in Dol Guldur would not leave any attempt on Erebor unhindered[..]They will help one another.' And they certainly would have done so, if I had not attacked Dol Guldur at the same time.
(This post was edited by Chen G. on Apr 17 2019, 9:30pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Apr 17 2019, 9:30pm
Post #74 of 77
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Although "The Quest of Erebor" goes into more detail...
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...much of it is summarized in the part III of Appendix A in The Lord of the Rings, "Durin's Folk".
"I reject your reality and substitute my own." - Adam Savage
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lurtz2010
Rohan
Apr 17 2019, 9:48pm
Post #75 of 77
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Is that the call sheets copied word for word? I always wondered how the DolGuldur stuff was going got fit in at the end of film1 so it looks like it was going to intercut between that and the barrel escape. Damn that would’ve been an amazing climax
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