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Anybody here seen the new clip of "TOLKIEN"?
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Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Rohan


Apr 8, 1:56pm

Post #1 of 27 (5217 views)
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Anybody here seen the new clip of "TOLKIEN"? Can't Post

Empire released it online today. I was wondering if anyone had seen it and could clarify whether the word that Edith uses in the scene is of some significance - she says it (for some reason I couldn't get close-caption to work on it, so I couldn't tell exactly what it was, but it sounds like Mezelador, or something similar), and then she asks Tolkien to tell a story about a princess with that name, but Tolkien replies that it's not the name of a princess, it's the name of a place, a place held in reverence, for it was blessed by the - and then he pauses, presumably before saying "elves". I was wondering if anyone here could figure out what the word is, and whether it has any importance in the Tolkien legendarium.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Aeh-Ml-5tU

"We are Kree"

(This post was edited by dernwyn on Apr 8, 4:24pm)


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Apr 8, 4:33pm

Post #2 of 27 (5128 views)
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LOL! [In reply to] Can't Post

Omigosh, that's "cellar door", what Tolkien once called one of the beautiful-sounding phrases.

The story, via Tokien Gateway, is here: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Cellar_door

Looks like the movie's writers really have done a bit of homework! Laugh But discussing something like this over dinner? This fantasy about the fantasy-creator is looking more and more intriguing!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I desired dragons with a profound desire"


Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Rohan


Apr 8, 5:01pm

Post #3 of 27 (5111 views)
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Oh wow! This is interesting [In reply to] Can't Post

I had no idea what the phrase was - thank you for explaining that!

The movie's writers certainly do seem to have an exquisite knowledge of Tolkien. I'm very excited for the movie!

"We are Kree"


Mari D.
Rivendell


Apr 8, 9:39pm

Post #4 of 27 (5086 views)
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Oh wow. I wonder how that scene will be set within the narrative? [In reply to] Can't Post

I like the background music in particular!
But the other aspects are also nice.

>> Non-native English speaker. If you reply to one of my posts feel free to help me improve by quoting + correcting the quote in CAPITAL letters :-)
>> Thanks everyone for your kind answers to my many questions! It's a delight for me to read them.


(This post was edited by Mari D. on Apr 8, 9:40pm)


Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Rohan


Apr 8, 10:04pm

Post #5 of 27 (5074 views)
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Yes! I loved the music in that clip [In reply to] Can't Post

Especially when Tolkien pauses, just as he's about to say the word Elves - and the music goes all quiet and mysterious.

"We are Kree"


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Apr 10, 10:42am

Post #6 of 27 (5031 views)
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Well Done dernwyn!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

*bows deeply* You caught that fly ball out of mid air! It looks like the depth of this film by its makers/writers is going to truly be a worthy study and biography of Tolkien. So exciting!!
And I love it that they're both so involved with story-telling at a restaurant (dining hall) and that she's encouraging.... more like challenging him to dive in. It shows how entrenched this growing fantasy world is in every area of their lives. She's as caught up in it as he is... knowing when to encourage and when to listen. This is gonna be good! *twitch*




sample

We have been there and back again.


TIME Google Calendar


Solicitr
Rohan

Apr 10, 8:44pm

Post #7 of 27 (5020 views)
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So [In reply to] Can't Post

why can't they cast an actor who looks even vaguely like Tolkien? Couldn't they at least have dyed his hair, even if they couldn't take five inches off his height?

And why have Edith speak (an American approximation of) RP, when the real Edith spoke Brum her whole life?

___________________
Also wonder how they'll handle Tolkien's religious belief: ignore, or insult?


Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Rohan


Apr 11, 1:28pm

Post #8 of 27 (4968 views)
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The director already said in an interview [In reply to] Can't Post

That they will show the extent to which Tolkien's faith inspired him and his works.

As for Nicholas Hoult, his appearance seems much less important to me than his acting, which is, on the whole, pretty good, and looks to be very good here from what we've seen in these trailers and clips so far.

"We are Kree"


2ndBreffest
Lorien


Apr 12, 10:07pm

Post #9 of 27 (4933 views)
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yes [In reply to] Can't Post

 I'm not sure if it's been mentioned before by anyone else, but he doesn't sound like Tolkien at all. There's lots of recordings of his voice, and it's very distinctive. I understand for movie purposes they would opt to not replicate it quite as Tolkieny, but it's a big part of his personal character imo. But yeah, the actor really doesn't look like Tolkien to me either...the movie could be alright though, I suppose.


skyofcoffeebeans
Rivendell

Apr 13, 1:20pm

Post #10 of 27 (4907 views)
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What do you mean? [In reply to] Can't Post

We have no idea what Tolkien sounded like as a man in his late teens / early 20s. There are no such recordings, and he would have sounded very little like the old man that we all recognize. Are we talking about accents?


2ndBreffest
Lorien


Apr 13, 1:40pm

Post #11 of 27 (4896 views)
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yes... [In reply to] Can't Post

that is a good point, though there is just something in the manner of speaking that I imagine would carry over from his early years into the later adult years we are all familiar with. It's a hard thing to pinpoint. But of course, I can't say that the actor isn't speaking exactly as Tolkien would have sounded at that age.


Solicitr
Rohan

Apr 14, 4:14pm

Post #12 of 27 (4864 views)
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In general [In reply to] Can't Post

Accents are 'set' surprisingly early in life, around age 6 to 8 (think Henry Kissinger, who emigrated to the US at age 15), unless the person works actively to change it.* Tolkien's mentor Joseph Wright spoke broad Yorkshire despite having spent decades at Oxford.

In other words, it's pretty safe to assume Tolkien's accent was essentially the same in youth as in relative old age (the Malvern tapes were made when he was 60). Moreover, RP is what one would expect from a grammar-school boy in his day and age.

However Houton doesn't mumble nearly enough!

*I do know a fellow who was born and raised in London, emigrating to California as a teenager. However, after he enlisted in the Marines his "Limey" accent precipitated enough fistfights that he consciously adopted "military Southern."


(This post was edited by Solicitr on Apr 14, 4:20pm)


Solicitr
Rohan

Apr 18, 6:36pm

Post #13 of 27 (4668 views)
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I was afraid of this [In reply to] Can't Post

Writers who don't know their subject except on the surface, and are faking it:


Quote
In one particular scene in the new bio-pic Tolkien, the young J.R.R. Tolkien (Hoult) takes his friend Edith Bratt (Lily Collins) out to lunch at a fancy restaurant. Both poor, both orphans, the teens uncomfortably negotiate their upper-class surroundings, but then Tolkien finds his ease telling Edith about a particular English phrase that’s transfixed him lately: Since the phrase is beautiful, he reasons, it should mean something beautiful, beyond its banal definition. With her prodding, he starts creating a redefinition, conjuring a mystical forest inhabited by elves (take a guess for yourself what the phrase was, trivia masters! If you need a hint, try working backwards from the elvish city of “Caras Galadhon” and its ruler, “Celeborn”). The give-and-take of their blossoming romance is founded on language, and in such ways, Tolkien makes a case for why the mind of The Lord of the Rings author was as fascinating as his fantasy epics.


First off, as most will know, Celeborn and his city didn't exist in 1915 and wouldn't until the next world war was well under way. And while it is true that Tolkien , in On Fairy-Stories, singled out "cellar door" as singularly euphonious, it doesn't get one very close to Celeborn unless one mispronounces him Seleborn.

But beyond, that, it creates a notion of Tolkien's word/world creation process which is not only wrong, but explicitly rejected by the man himself (don't the writers own a copy of Letters?)


Quote
'When you invent a language,' he said, 'you more or less catch it out of thin air. You say boo-hoo and that means something.'

I have of course no precise memory of just what I said, but what is here written seems odd, since I think it unlikely that I should intentionally have said things contrary to my considered opinions. I do not think that an inventor catches noises out of the air... it comes of course out of his linguistic equipment and has innumerable threads of connexion with other similar-sounding 'words' ... No vocal noises mean anything in themselves.


In this case, of course, Celeborn was created from long-existing Noldorin stems to give a meaning of "Silver Tree,"* to go with his wife "Tree Maiden"* and their city "Tree Fort." Nothing remotely do do with basement entrances!

And, yes, the article confirms that Tolkien's trench-visions include Black Riders arising from German cavalrymen: nonsense both internally and externally, since not only did the Black Riders' conception lie two decades in the future, but there was no German cavalry on the Western Front by 1916; the Germans had converted their troopers to infantry once it became apparent horses had no place in trench warfare.

------------------------
*Later altered, but this was what T intended when he first wrote the Lorien chapter


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Apr 22, 10:25pm

Post #14 of 27 (4510 views)
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True, but there is a 1930 recording of Tolkien. [In reply to] Can't Post

You can listen to it here:

At the Tobacconist's (British Library).

That's only 15 years after the period covered by the movie.


Treachery, treachery I fear; treachery of that miserable creature.

But so it must be. Let us remember that a traitor may betray himself and do good that he does not intend.


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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Apr 22, 10:38pm

Post #15 of 27 (4511 views)
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"Strangely enough, it all turns out well. --- How? --- I don't know: it's a mystery." [In reply to] Can't Post

For some reason, I am reminded of Stanley Kauffmann's review of Shakespeare in Love (1998). Kauffmann spent most of the 1930s acting in a Shakespearean company in New York:


Quote
Materials for the play, as Shakespeare keeps trying to meet his deadline, come from his experiences with Viola: her father's objections, her aristocratic fiancé, duels, a balcony scene complete with nurse, and more. I haven't seen such close correspondence between experience and art since a play about Wagner, in the 1930s, in which he is struggling to compose Tristan and Isolde, embraces a new mistress one evening, cries "I have it!" then rushes to his piano and whams out the "Liebestod". I was too young then to be anythign but outraged; in Shakespeare, I thought it was an entertaining parody of the creative process, all the more entertaining because of its heat.



Treachery, treachery I fear; treachery of that miserable creature.

But so it must be. Let us remember that a traitor may betray himself and do good that he does not intend.


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Discuss Tolkien's life and works in the Reading Room!
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Solicitr
Rohan

Apr 23, 1:09pm

Post #16 of 27 (4423 views)
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Interesting! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
You can listen to it here:

At the Tobacconist's (British Library).

That's only 15 years after the period covered by the movie.


I had never heard that; I knew of its existence, but wasn't aware it was available online. Thanks!

2 observations: 1) Tolkien's diction and rhythm are very much like Christopher T's; unsurprisingly. 2) His accent is very much old-school RP, except that, even when not in "Middle earth mode", his Ls are very forward, and he sometimes even trills his Rs; overall, there's a hint of Welsh in his speech; perhaps the influence of Father Francis? Or is that a West Midlands thing?


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Apr 23, 2:04pm

Post #17 of 27 (4418 views)
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Then there is this [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien estate disavows forthcoming film starring Nicholas Hoult

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Mari D.
Rivendell


Apr 23, 2:45pm

Post #18 of 27 (4408 views)
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I'm pleased by their generosity and clarity. They allow the movie to be there, but by saying they don't endorse it make clear that you can't see it as a historical documentary. / [In reply to] Can't Post

 


(This post was edited by Mari D. on Apr 23, 2:46pm)


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Apr 23, 3:05pm

Post #19 of 27 (4407 views)
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Apr. 23! Perfect timing to respond to a Shakespearean comment. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Treachery, treachery I fear; treachery of that miserable creature.

But so it must be. Let us remember that a traitor may betray himself and do good that he does not intend.


-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Discuss Tolkien's life and works in the Reading Room!
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
How to find old Reading Room discussions.


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Apr 23, 4:37pm

Post #20 of 27 (4394 views)
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I had to look it up [In reply to] Can't Post

Not being a Shakespeare scholar, I was unaware that April 23 was the anniversary of his death, and possibly his birthday as well.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Belegdir
Lorien


Apr 23, 5:15pm

Post #21 of 27 (4385 views)
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Saw the same article [In reply to] Can't Post

I would never consider a film like this to be historically accurate. Hollywood would never allow it.


Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea


Apr 23, 5:48pm

Post #22 of 27 (4379 views)
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I would never see any film as a historical documentary. [In reply to] Can't Post

...unless it was an actual documentary, that is.

I'm not terribly surprised they don't endorse it, to be honest. This IS the Tolkien Estate we're talking about.

"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that." - Viggo Mortensen

(This post was edited by Aragorn the Elfstone on Apr 23, 5:49pm)


Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Rohan


Apr 23, 6:10pm

Post #23 of 27 (4377 views)
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Unsurprising, I suppose [In reply to] Can't Post

I didn't think they would approve of it, somehow.

"We are Kree"


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Apr 23, 6:16pm

Post #24 of 27 (4374 views)
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I'm surprised they put out quite such a strong statement [In reply to] Can't Post

Remember, we are not talking about Christopher here, since he is no longer a decisionmaker for the Estate. I would expect them to endorse the film, but they did not need to make such a strong statement unless they thought the film was particularly unworthy. At least that is how I take it.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Rohan


Apr 23, 6:19pm

Post #25 of 27 (4374 views)
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I'd expect (and this is just a guess) that it's because of the way [In reply to] Can't Post

That the film seems to be sort of insinuating that Tolkien wrote the Lord of the Rings during the war years - at least from the trailers, I mean. I don't know whether that's what the actual film is like, but the trailers have had him seeing Balrogs in the flames and Black Riders in the trenches, etc.

"We are Kree"

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