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Elements from HoME in maps: has Amazon acquired the rights of some volumes?

Ataneruo
The Shire

Mar 16 2019, 8:06am

Post #1 of 20 (3043 views)
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Elements from HoME in maps: has Amazon acquired the rights of some volumes? Can't Post

We're all pretty confident the Tv-serie will be based also on Unfinished Tales, but Amazon has used a reference existing only in The Peoples of Middle-earth (HME XII) to draw the shores of Middle-earth in the 5th map, as you can sede in this tweet: https://twitter.com/.../1106617798724370432

Here's the complete analysis of the Maps where the comparisons come from:
https://www.breviarium.eu/...-of-the-rings-mappe/

There is also a discussion about the use Sauron Defeated instead of the tale of Akallabêth in the published Silmarillion.

What do you think? Can we take that reference as an evidence about what rights can be used by Amazon?


(This post was edited by Ataneruo on Mar 16 2019, 8:14am)


Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Rohan


Mar 16 2019, 2:00pm

Post #2 of 20 (2944 views)
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Interesting [In reply to] Can't Post

 

"We are Kree"


uncle Iorlas
Rohan


Mar 16 2019, 3:01pm

Post #3 of 20 (2925 views)
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I am confident of nothing. [In reply to] Can't Post

Too many unknowns.


Eldy
Tol Eressea


Mar 17 2019, 1:47am

Post #4 of 20 (2832 views)
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Speculation, but... [In reply to] Can't Post

...one of the more interesting ideas I've come across recently is that rather than purchasing the rights to entire books, Amazon might have the rights to "modules" of material--not just from The Silmarillion but also relevant parts of Unfinished Tales and The History of Middle-earth--relevant to particular topics or time periods. Theoretically, this would give the showrunners a much greater amount of source material from which to craft a (hopefully) satisfying adaptation while not necessarily locking the Estate into any arrangements with regards to hypothetical future First Age adaptations. Again, this is just speculation, but it seems all but certain at this point that UT, at the very least, is in play. Maybe Amazon was able to buy the rights to all of Tolkien's posthumous works (my gut instinct is that it seems unlikely the Estate would want to put all their eggs in one basket before seeing how at least the first season turns out) or that they'll have to make do with limited material, but given how much Númenor material is in HoMe (mixed in with a lot of other stuff in the same volumes) I strongly hope that's not the case.


Althoun
Lorien

Mar 17 2019, 2:23am

Post #5 of 20 (2827 views)
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HoME has so many gems pertaining to Númenor... [In reply to] Can't Post

An excerpt from JRR Tolkien, The Lost Road and Other Works, concerning a discussion between Elendil and his son (later known as Isildur, but here Herendil) regarding Sauron's subversion of Númenor.

Elendil is frightened that he is losing his son to the cult of Sauron, while his son fears that his father will lose his life for resisting the new state creed:



Quote


Elendil looked up; and then swiftly climbed another flight of stone steps at the northern end of the cove... Flat upon the stone with his chin in his hands lay a youth. He was looking out to sea, and did not turn his head as his father came up and sat down on the seat...

He looked down on the white body before him. It was dear to him, and beautiful. Herendil [Isildur] was naked, for he had been diving from the high point, being a daring diver and proud of his skill. It seemed suddenly to Elendil that the lad had grown over night, almost out of knowledge.

'Of what are you dreaming, Herendil, that your ears hear not?'

'I am thinking; I am not dreaming. I am a child no longer.'...

'How you have grow!' he said. 'You have the makings of a mighty man, and have nearly finished the making.'

'Why do you mock me?' said the boy. 'You know I am dark, and smaller than most others of my year. And that is a trouble to me. I stand barely to the shoulder of Almariel, whose hair is of shining gold, and she is a maiden, and of my own age. We hold that we are of the blood of kings, but I tell thee thy friends' sons make a jest of me and call me Terendul - slender and dark; and they say I have Eressean blood, or that I am half-Noldor. And that is not said with love in these days. It is but a step from being called half an Elf to being called Godfearing; and that is dangerous....'

There was a silence. At length Herendil spoke again: 'Of whom do you say that our king, Tarkalion [Ar-Pharazon], is descended?'

'From Earendel the mariner, son of Tuor the mighty who was lost in these seas.'...

[Herendil] 'They [the followers of Sauron] say now that the tale was altered by the Eresseans, who are slaves of the Lords [Valar]: that in truth Earendel was an adventurer, and showed us the way, and that the Lords of the West took him captive for that reason; and his work is perforce unfinished. Therefore the son of Earendel, our king, should complete it. They wish to do what has been long left undone.'

'What is that?'

'You know: to set foot in the far West, and not withdraw it. To conquer new realms for our race, and ease the pressure of this peopled island, where every road is trodden hard, and every tree and grass-blade counted. To be free, and masters of the world. To escape the shadow of sameness, and of ending. We would make our king Lord of the West. Death comes here slow and seldom; yet it comes. The land is only a cage gilded to look like Paradise.' ...

'You know, I suppose, that all hearts in Numenor are not drawn to Sauron? '

'Yes. There are fools even in Numenor,' said Herendil, in a lowered voice. 'But why speak of such things in this open place? Do you wish to bring evil on me?'

'I bring no evil,' said Elendil. 'That is thrust upon us: the choice between evils: the first fruits of war. But look, Herendil!...You are but four twelves, and were but a small child when Sauron came. You do not understand what days were like before then. You cannot choose in ignorance.'

'But others of greater age and knowledge than mine - or thine - have chosen,' said Herendil. 'And they say that history confirms them, and that Sauron has thrown a new light on history. Sauron knows history, all history.'

'Sauron knows, verily; but he twists knowledge. Sauron is a liar! ' Growing anger caused Elendil to raise his voice as he spoke. The words rang out as a challenge.

'You are mad,' said his son, turning at last upon his side and facing Elendil, with dread and fear in his eyes. 'Do not say such things to me! They might, they might...'

'Who are they, and what might they do?' said Elendil, but a chill fear passed from his son's eyes to his own heart.

'Do not ask! And do not speak - so loud! ' Herendil turned away, and lay prone with his face buried in his hands. 'You know it is dangerous - to us all. Whatever he be, Sauron is mighty, and has ears. I fear the dungeons. And I love thee, I love thee. Atarinya tye-melane.'

Atarinya tye-melane, my father, I love thee: the words sounded strange, but sweet: they smote Elendil's heart.

- The Númenórean Chapters (ii)" (HoME 5) p. 57 - 76




I hope that Amazon have the rights to this particular tome from Christopher's 'history of Middle-Earth' series (two chapters in all), because it is rather illuminating with regards to life in the latter nightmarish phase of Númenórean history, just prior to the Downfall. Where else will they find such intricate dialogue for this latter half of the story and the dynamic between father and son?

JRR Tolkien's son, Christopher, explained in the above that in writing about Ar-Pharazon's Númenor (in the final Sauronian phase with the Temple and human sacrifice) in his abandoned novel The Lost Road, and the plight of the faithful therein, Tolkien found an image reminiscent of Nazi Germany in his own day and its subversion of the German culture he so loved, as a student and professor of ancient Germanic philology.

In this fascinating prose extract, written in much the same novelistic style as the Hobbit and LoTR, Tolkien ruminates on the ethical dilemma of a father and son living in the dying days of a nation that has gone over to evil; and the painful choice between short-term bliss through acquiescence to social pressure, on the one hand, and a higher duty to family and 'God' on the other. As Tom Shippey notes in his biography, 'The Road to Middle-Earth: How JRR Tolkien created a New Mythology': Elendil and his son Herendil are indeed in Tolkien's story of 'The Lost Road' almost on the brink of separation, for the son, less wise than his father, seeks 'bliss' rather than truth, and bliss seems to his generation to be best achieved by obedience to their rulers and rebellion against the gods.

His son Christopher comments:




Quote

"From Elendil's words at the end of The Lost Road there emerges a sinister picture: the withdrawal of the besotted and aging king [Ar-Pharazon] from the public view, the unexplained disappearance of people unpopular with the 'government', informers, prisons, torture, secrecy, fear of the night; propaganda in the form of the 'rewriting of history' (...); the multiplication of weapons of war, the purpose of which is concealed but guessed at; and behind all the dreadful figure of Sauron, the real power, surveying the whole land from the Mountain of Numenor.

"The teaching of Sauron has led to the invention of ships of metal that traverse the seas without sails, but which are hideous in the eyes of those who have not abandoned or forgotten Tol-Eressea; to the building of grim fortresses and unlovely towers; and to missiles that pass with a noise like thunder to strike their targets many miles away.

"Moreover, Numenor is seen by the young as overpopulous, boring, 'over-known': "every tree and grass-blade is counted", in Herendil's words; and this cause of discontent is used, it seems, by Sauron to further the policy of "imperial" expansion and ambition that he presses on the king.

"When at this time my father reached back to the world of the first man to bear the name "Elf- friend" he found there an image of what he most condemned and feared in his own."

The History of Middle Earth volume 5 - edited by Christopher Tolkien - The Lost Road. 1987. Paperback edition - page 77.




Quote

"Two chapters from the final part of the voyage were written in full, the story of Elendil the father and his son Herendil in Númenor whilst Sauron is steadily gaining power on the island and persecuting the Faithful and spurring on the king to act against the Valar.

The description of Elendil’s villa by the sea is enchanting: JRRT wishes to recreate a distant world, perhaps a piece of the Roman Empire where pagan decadence and the first thrilled, untamed Christians meet and struggle grimly. The son does not understand his father’s ideas and wavers between his affection for him and the corrupt seductiveness of Sauron.

The work was written in 1937 and the horrifying totalitarian state of Númenor under Ar-Pharazon which is about to bring war to Tol Eressea (and the rest) drew on contemporary events: the Third Reich and the imminent war in Europe."

- The History of Middle-Earth (12 Volumes), reviewed by Franco Manni-(TV)



(This post was edited by Althoun on Mar 17 2019, 2:33am)


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Mar 17 2019, 1:35pm

Post #6 of 20 (2719 views)
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Copyright notices [In reply to] Can't Post

I would have thought such a thing would have been impossible, until I checked the copyright notices and saw that unlike the published Silmarillion, the volumes of HoMe don't appear to give Christopher individual copyright rights. Of course, those notices may not be determinative, but it seems likely that if he did claim individual rights to those books he would have listed it the same way that the Silmarillion is listed.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


80s Kid
Registered User

Mar 18 2019, 8:04am

Post #7 of 20 (2583 views)
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True to Tolkien [In reply to] Can't Post

It's not that hard to imagine that the estate may "give" Amazon the rights to these sources simply to make the adaptation as true to Tolkien as possible. If they did not do this, the writers had to "invent" a lot off stuff. A lot of casual viewers would consider what they saw on screen as Tolkien canon, even if it's not. Maybe the estate see a chance here to introduce Tolkien's stories to a wider audience. And maybe Amazon has to stay true to the source material as part of the deal.


Archestratie
Rohan

Mar 18 2019, 1:06pm

Post #8 of 20 (2533 views)
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Maybe [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
It's not that hard to imagine that the estate may "give" Amazon the rights to these sources simply to make the adaptation as true to Tolkien as possible. If they did not do this, the writers had to "invent" a lot off stuff. A lot of casual viewers would consider what they saw on screen as Tolkien canon, even if it's not. Maybe the estate see a chance here to introduce Tolkien's stories to a wider audience. And maybe Amazon has to stay true to the source material as part of the deal.


The thing that makes the most sense to me is that Amazon acquired the LotR rights from New Lines and 2nd Age rights from the Estate.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Mar 18 2019, 2:18pm

Post #9 of 20 (2521 views)
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Rights Issues [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The thing that makes the most sense to me is that Amazon acquired the LotR rights from New Lines and 2nd Age rights from the Estate.


Not necessarily. The film rights and the television rights seem to be two, separate issues. Amazon may have television rights to several of Tolkien's books *including LotR, while New Line retains the film rights to LotR and TH.

"I reject your reality and substitute my own." - Adam Savage


Archestratie
Rohan

Mar 18 2019, 2:54pm

Post #10 of 20 (2509 views)
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So? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
The thing that makes the most sense to me is that Amazon acquired the LotR rights from New Lines and 2nd Age rights from the Estate.


Not necessarily. The film rights and the television rights seem to be two, separate issues. Amazon may have television rights to several of Tolkien's books *including LotR, while New Line retains the film rights to LotR and TH.


Yeah, and?


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Mar 18 2019, 3:10pm

Post #11 of 20 (2499 views)
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And what? [In reply to] Can't Post

Amazon might not have the LotR and TH movie rights as you implied. They might only have been given permission to utilize element from the films. That's all I meant.

"I reject your reality and substitute my own." - Adam Savage

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Mar 18 2019, 3:12pm)


Archestratie
Rohan

Mar 18 2019, 4:15pm

Post #12 of 20 (2483 views)
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LOL [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Amazon might not have the LotR and TH movie rights as you implied. They might only have been given permission to utilize element from the films. That's all I meant.

Same here.


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Mar 19 2019, 1:18pm

Post #13 of 20 (2299 views)
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Correct [In reply to] Can't Post

The original contracts grant an option to purchase television series rights within five years of the most recent motion picture, for a fairly small amount of money. Presumably Warner's held that option, and Amazon purchased it from them (although the original announcement of the series called Warners a partner). Amazon must have updated those rights from the Estate with some rights to UT and/or HoMe.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Eldy
Tol Eressea


Mar 20 2019, 10:11pm

Post #14 of 20 (2060 views)
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Small point [In reply to] Can't Post

You're more familiar with this issue than I am, but I would think the option to purchase the TV rights would previously have been held by the Saul Zaentz Company? On account of them owning the film rights outright and simply licensing them to New Line/Warner Bros. Though I know the films subsequently constituted intellectual property of their own since the rights to make video games utilizing material found exclusively in the movies are a separate license, and that the book and film rights for games were for some years licensed by different companies. So I would think that NL/WB's involvement might indicate that movie-original material, or at least design concepts, were on the table for Amazon to purchase as well.


Solicitr
Gondor

Apr 10 2019, 3:25pm

Post #15 of 20 (1694 views)
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Meh. [In reply to] Can't Post

Fanfic with a budget and a distributor is still fanfic.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Apr 28 2019, 1:18am

Post #16 of 20 (1425 views)
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I hate to say it but [In reply to] Can't Post

When a professional screen writer is hired to write a script for a movie or a TV series it is no longer fan fiction. You can argue all you want but this takes the writing to a different level. KS

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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squire
Half-elven


Apr 28 2019, 1:34am

Post #17 of 20 (1425 views)
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Here's a clever piece that points out the only difference between fan fiction and professional film adaptations [In reply to] Can't Post

I was trying to figure out if the reactions to the term 'fan fiction' in this subthread are based on poor vs superior quality of writing, or poor vs. superior quality of capturing the essence of the original writer. How and when can one writer be on a "different level" than another writer?

I found this commentary which explores this question rather well, I thought. It uses the comic book films as its model, but it would seem to apply to Tolkien as well. The quote that sums it up is:

"[Adaptation] scriptwriters are really just professional fan-fiction writers with copyright on their side."



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


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kzer_za
Lorien

Apr 28 2019, 2:38am

Post #18 of 20 (1423 views)
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I appreciate your more skeptical perspective on this forum, Squire [In reply to] Can't Post

However, I feel like the definition of "fan fiction" in that article just covers a little too much. Many, many classic movies have played loose with their source material. For example, is Apocalypse Now "fan fiction" of Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness? Is Frankenstein (+ Bride of Frankenstein, arguably the better movie) fan fiction of Shelley's novel? Is It's a Wonderful Life fan fiction of The Greatest Gift? Is Chimes at Midnight, which splices bits from 4-5 Shakespeare plays together to make a movie about Falstaff, fan fiction of the Bard?

If they are, it seems like a term so broad to be almost meaningless.


(This post was edited by kzer_za on Apr 28 2019, 2:43am)


squire
Half-elven


Apr 28 2019, 12:16pm

Post #19 of 20 (1368 views)
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Yes, that's just the question [In reply to] Can't Post

Part of the complexity is that we on this forum, like the writer of the article I linked to, are willing to apply 'fan fiction' to at least some aspects of the activity called 'adaptation' (aka transmedia, I've lately been informed). In adaptation, there are several strategies to accomodate a change of media or form, like compression and repositioning; one of these is, of course, invention - adding new elements that are not found in the source material.

It's this last one that opens the question of whether an adaptation is, in its inventive aspects, simply a licensed and authorized and funded form of fan-fiction. Being unauthorized and unpublishable, fan fiction stories are mostly written to satisfy the aesthetic desires of the fan writers; commercial adaptations (primarily films from books) are written to satisfy the aesthetic desire of a paying audience. The writer usually defends any invention by saying the audience or market expects or demands it. But it's the writer who comes up with the specific invention, forgoing other possible ones, and so in some sense any element of invention in an adaptation really does come from the writer's feelings about the source material.

That circles back to fan fiction, and to the article's contention that the only difference between a really first-class piece of 'conventional' fan fiction - one that reads as almost indistinguishable from the prose of the original author - and a really inferior screenplay - one that fails to capture almost anything of its source except perhaps the title and a few character names or episodes from the plot - is that the latter is nevertheless authorized and does not violate the copyright and so can be published/produced.

In the above example, which is not, I think, unimaginable, where is the line to be drawn between fan fiction and a classic movie - between your "just a little too much" and "so broad as to be almost meaningless"? In the case of this Amazon production of Tolkien's almost completely unwritten epic of the Second Age, why not call 49-odd hours of invented dialogue, characters, settings, and subplots 'fan fiction', even if the production values beautifully reflect the billion-dollar investment and even if, as many on this forum have advocated, the overall arc and themes end up remarkably true to those that Tolkien outlined in a dozen or two compressed pages of annalistic dates, dynastic names, and commentary?



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


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Solicitr
Gondor

Apr 28 2019, 2:10pm

Post #20 of 20 (1317 views)
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Or [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
one that fails to capture almost anything of its source except perhaps the title and a few character names or episodes from the plot


In the case of Starship Troopers, un-fan fiction (Verhoeven hated the book, and set out to vandalize it).

 
 

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