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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
LOTR references

Lucky Luke
Bree


Feb 26, 12:36am

Post #1 of 24 (19504 views)
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LOTR references Can't Post

Just rewatched the Hobbit trilogy. I was surprised by how much references to the LOTR films they packed in there, notably in the dialogues. Having a bit of fun with LOTR nods is ok, but too much takes you out of the Hobbit films. There was also a lot of "twin scenes". The Gandalf/ Frodo scene in Moria is echoed by the Gandalf / Bilbo scene leaving the troll cave. The first one is a classic, the second a repetition, a copy that feels hammered in and lessens the "pity of Bilbo" (since Gandalf's advice leads to it). What references did you like or dislike?


Chen G.
Rohan

Feb 26, 7:41am

Post #2 of 24 (19423 views)
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Depends [In reply to] Can't Post

This is a prequel, and it needn't be apologetic about being a prequel, and so of course its going to set up scenes and plot-points in The Lord of the Rings, such as the running theme of pity, Legolas, etcetra.

As for references in the dialogue: I've gone through every line (I've created new subtitles in my native language for all six films) and while there are quite a few references ("Anything?" - "Nothing!") there are also incidental stuff. For instance, the lines "He is here" and "No, it is not" are repeated several times over the six films, but is it an intentional repetition? I don't think so, its too generic.

The point is that while The Hobbit is highly unified with The Lord of the Rings, its also its own thing in terms of the journies of some of its characters and the themes the story is infused with. There's nothing quite like Thorin's character journey in The Lord of the Rings: people compare it to Aragorn, but its actually more like having a cross of Boromir and Isildur as your protagonist for three whole films.

The themes are therefore also unique: We never had this emphasis on nationalism, for instance. This idea that Dwarves look after the interest of their own people even if it puts in danger another group of people (Laketown), that Thranduil keeps people holed up in their realm, etcetra.


(This post was edited by Chen G. on Feb 26, 7:42am)


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Feb 26, 8:21pm

Post #3 of 24 (19225 views)
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Not that one [In reply to] Can't Post

I mean, that is where Bilbo got the sword, so no I don't really have a problem with it. But there were quite a few: Gandalf bumps into the chandelier, Gandalf gets his shadowy-voicey thing in Bilbo's house, "that's my wee lad Gimli," etc. And of course the worst was Thranduil telling Legolas to look for Strider, but oh well. None of them really bothered me. OTOH, I didn't think the Rivendell scenes were anything like LoTR, so there's that.





Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Feb 26, 8:25pm

Post #4 of 24 (19218 views)
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Yes, but [In reply to] Can't Post

Gimli was the only Dwarf in the Fellowship, and although the movie Helm's Deep had an army of Elves show up, for the most part both Helm's Deep and Pellenor were fought by men. I guess Rohan and Gondor were already allies, so there wasn't really any room for "nationalism." (What a connotation THAT has right now!)





Chen G.
Rohan

Feb 26, 8:34pm

Post #5 of 24 (19216 views)
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That's part of what prequels do [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
But there were quite a few: Gandalf bumps into the chandelier, Gandalf gets his shadowy-voicey thing in Bilbo's house, "that's my wee lad Gimli," etc. And of course the worst was Thranduil telling Legolas to look for Strider, but oh well. None of them really bothered me.


Again, they're prequels and they needn't be apologetic about being prequels.

I do want to talk specifically about the Gimli "cameo". There's a great quote of Philippa Boyens which should be studied in screenwriting classes, that being "everything in the script needs to do more than one thing." Well, as it happens, that beat does so much more than merely referencing (or rather, presaging) The Lord of the Rings.

When I watched that for the first time, I chuckled at the reference, but I also thought: "Oh right, these Dwarves left families behind to join this quest", which was quite a sobering thought.

But before you accuse me of reading too much into it, I invite you to look at the film and see that this is in fact a recurring theme of the movie. Kili, also, reflects upon his family back home. Thorin is reminded of this too, in his confrontation with Fili. Heck, Gloin himself later grumbles about the lengths to which he went to launch the quest.

It all feeds into the weariness of the company, which eventually results in them giving up on the hidden door.


(This post was edited by Chen G. on Feb 26, 8:39pm)


Darkstone
Immortal


Feb 26, 8:38pm

Post #6 of 24 (19203 views)
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Wow! [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for that!

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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Feb 26, 9:00pm

Post #7 of 24 (19175 views)
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Never thought about it like that [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
When I watched that for the first time, I chuckled at the reference, but I also thought: "Oh right, these Dwarves left families behind to join this quest", which was quite a sobering thought.

But before you accuse me of reading too much into it, I invite you to look at the film and see that this is in fact a recurring theme of the movie. Kili, also, reflects upon his family back home. Thorin is reminded of this too, in his confrontation with Fili. Heck, Gloin himself later grumbles about the lengths to which he went to launch the quest.

It all feeds into the weariness of the company, which eventually results in them giving up on the hidden door.


That's a good point.







Cirashala
Tol Eressea


Feb 26, 11:07pm

Post #8 of 24 (19081 views)
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Very true! [In reply to] Can't Post

They REALLY could have gone without the use of the words "goblin mutant" though...orc spawn would have been just as insulting, if not FAR more so, and WAY less 21st century Crazy

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Cygnus
Lorien


Mar 1, 4:33am

Post #9 of 24 (18830 views)
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Curious [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
. And of course the worst was Thranduil telling Legolas to look for Strider, but oh well.

Hmmm, I liked that part. It made me look forward to the next movie when Strider makes his first appearance. What didn't you like about it?

"I found it is the small things.....everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keeps the darkness at bay.....simple acts of kindness and love." - Gandalf (movie quote)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Mar 1, 1:47pm

Post #10 of 24 (18707 views)
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I'm going to make a guess. [In reply to] Can't Post

If it was me, I might have doubts that Aragorn would be known to anyone as Strider at this early date. He would be about 25 or 26 years old at this time (in Tolkien's legendarium Aragorn would have been 10 years old at the time of the Battle of Five Armies).

"I reject your reality and substitute my own." - Adam Savage


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Mar 1, 4:30pm

Post #11 of 24 (18694 views)
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Big eye-roll moment for me [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm a HUGE fan & defender of the Hobbit movies, but I admit that BOT5A had the most issues, and that was one of them for me. I understand that Legolas felt he couldn't stay after defying his father, and Thranduil's grief over that. Like Thorin, Thranduil realized his pride cost him what he treasured most, so for me any mention of LoTR just felt "wrong place, wrong time." But then, I wasn't a big fan of Bard shooting the arrow off Bain's shoulder, when so many others cite that as the best scene in the movie for the father-son moment. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.





Chen G.
Rohan

Mar 1, 6:07pm

Post #12 of 24 (18676 views)
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I don't feel strongly about it either way [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't really need it, but I never rolled my eyes at it.

I think the fact that it happens near the end of the film (so "closer" to The Fellowship of the Ring) makes it palatable.


Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Rohan


Mar 2, 3:39am

Post #13 of 24 (18586 views)
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Agreed. [In reply to] Can't Post

That moment - plus "because it was real" which follows immediately after - is particularly cringe, in my opinion. I just don't think a Strider reference was necessary there.

Also, I agree about the Bard-Bain arrow thing.


Noria
Gondor

Mar 2, 3:44pm

Post #14 of 24 (18563 views)
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Legolas [In reply to] Can't Post

My take on why Legolas wouldn't return to the Woodland realm was more to do with his unrequited love for Tauriel than problems with his father. But the latter works as well.

I too cringed slightly at the dialogue in that scene - "because it was real" and the Strider reference - even as I was moved by the anguish expressed non-verbally by all three Elven actors. IMO that sequence would work better if the words were better but it's still pretty good, IMO.

I thought that some of references to LotR were a bit too obvious and clumsy but it amused rather than bothered me. PJ tried too hard.


Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Rohan


Mar 2, 4:30pm

Post #15 of 24 (18552 views)
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I think the sequence would have worked better with fewer words [In reply to] Can't Post

The actors do such a good job with facial and non-verbal acting, as you said, that in my opinion they didn't need much of the dialogue.


2ndBreffest
Lorien


Mar 2, 7:08pm

Post #16 of 24 (18531 views)
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well... [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought all of the LotR references felt incredibly forced and unnatural, but in light of everything else, its obvious subtlety is not included in PJ's personal toolkit. So even though they were cringey, they didn't really feel out of place.


Lucky Luke
Bree


Mar 2, 10:32pm

Post #17 of 24 (18485 views)
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Prequel? [In reply to] Can't Post

I migth be biased, but all the Hobbit references in the LOTRO films worked really well and added a layer to the film universe. References made sense because, like in the books, they applied to past events. In The Hobbit movies, however, the references are to future LOTRO events which have not yet taken place in the Middle Earth universe just to wink at the LOTRO movies. For example, the dwarves being surrounded by the elves on horseback is a reference to Gimli, Aragorn and Legolas being surrounded by the Rohirrim, but that refernce is pointless. Same with Bilbo saying to Thorin : "You are not yourself." Etc., etc. Chen G., that's cool, did you translate the films professionally or just on your own?


Chen G.
Rohan

Mar 3, 12:30am

Post #18 of 24 (18471 views)
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On my own [In reply to] Can't Post

The official hebrew translations are not particularly good, especially for the Lord of the Rings. They are based on an older translation of the books, which completely mis-interperated Tolkien's Elves; Goblins is transliterated instead of perfectly suitable translation, etcetra. In An Unexpected Journey, the translator clearly had no idea what "yore" means, because he just transliterated that word.

I ran a list to keep track of recurring lines to make sure the translation was consistent. There weren't too many of those: maybe twenty-odd (which isn't a lot given how much dialogue is in these films), and a few more that I marked as incidental.


(This post was edited by Chen G. on Mar 3, 12:32am)


Lucky Luke
Bree


Mar 3, 3:02pm

Post #19 of 24 (18433 views)
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Twin scenes and references [In reply to] Can't Post

I remember, seeing FOTR for the first time, being struck by the vastness and the openness of the film universe which led to a sense of adventure. The twin scenes and too many references, for me, mitigate these qualities. Setting Azog in Weathertop is kind of lazy. Adequating Tauriel to Arwen (shining scenes), plain silly. Bolg's Lurtz moment while fighting Legolas, pointless. At their worst, the twin scenes not only restrict the film world, take me out of the universe, but affect negatively the original LOTR scenes. Galadriel's alternate personality in the mirror scene of FOTR now echoes her "Nuclear" Hobbit scene ; the powerful Ringwraiths attack on Weathertop is linked to their horrible battle in Dol Guldur; the superb design of the Nine when Frodo enter's their world is mixed up with their grotesque costumes in Dol Guldur.


skyofcoffeebeans
Rivendell

Mar 3, 7:02pm

Post #20 of 24 (18406 views)
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I love... [In reply to] Can't Post

...how Galadriel's presence in Dol Guldor affects how we perceive her in all of her scenes later in Lorien. We've seen her directly face Sauron and how it has altered and drained her. While I don't think what the filmmakers intend between Galadriel and Sauron is clearly conveyed, when I intellectually understand it, I like it.

I also like Bolg and Legola's first fight scene in Laketown on its own. As a part of an adaptation of the Hobbit, no, it's out of place and unnecessary, but I do like the choreography of the fight itself. Perhaps Tauriel and Beorn should have had adventures in Laketown instead, setting up Beorn and Bolg for the Battle of Five Armies rather than a LOTR character out of place in this story.


VeArkenstone
Lorien

Mar 26, 6:10pm

Post #21 of 24 (17000 views)
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Arwen and Frodo / Tauriel and Kili [In reply to] Can't Post

Tauriel, as she is healing Fili in TH and tapping into the White Light of Forever, keeps repeating in Elfish "What grace has given me, let it pass to him. Save him." This is exactly what Arwen prays for Frodo in FoTR when Frodo is near death or dead after fleeing Weathertop, only she prays it in English.

Also, Frodo experiences the White Light of Forever as he is being brought back to life by Elrond in FoTR, the same way Fili experiences the White Light of Forever as he is being healed by Tauriel in TH.

I love all of these scenes. .

Please, call me Ve.


Cirashala
Tol Eressea


Mar 26, 6:29pm

Post #22 of 24 (16974 views)
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Um... [In reply to] Can't Post

do you mean Kili? Tongue

My writing and novels:

My Hobbit Fanfiction

My historical novel print and kindle version

My historical novels ebook version compatible with all ereaders

You can also find my novel at most major book retailers online (and for those outside the US who prefer a print book, you can find the print version at Book Depository). Search "Amazing Grace Amanda Longpre'" to find it.

Happy reading everyone!


Hamfast Gamgee
Grey Havens

Apr 4, 8:53am

Post #23 of 24 (16138 views)
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We don't actually know [In reply to] Can't Post

Althlough it is probable that the Strider that Thranduil refers to is the same one as in Lotr. It is possible that Strider was a general nickname used by lots of leaders of the Dunedain.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 4, 1:51pm

Post #24 of 24 (16119 views)
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Oh, we know. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Althlough it is probable that the Strider that Thranduil refers to is the same one as in Lotr. It is possible that Strider was a general nickname used by lots of leaders of the Dunedain.


Yeah, that's remotely possible, but c'mon! We all know that this was a reference to Aragorn (who in the continuity of the films would have been in his mid-20s, not a 10 year-old boy).

"I reject your reality and substitute my own." - Adam Savage

 
 

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