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Cirashala
Valinor
Feb 2 2019, 12:34am
Post #1 of 9
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Sindarin/elvish translations in LOTR
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Hello all! I am curious about the 'non-subtitled' elvish we hear in LOTR. There are a few moments (possibly some in TH trilogy too? Can't remember off the top of my head) where someone speaks elvish and there is no translation for what was spoken.
One in particular comes to mind- when Aragorn arrives at Helm's Deep, Legolas hands him the Evenstar necklace, and Aragorn looks up at him and says (not sure on spelling) "Anune". I assume, given the body language, this means a deep, heartfelt thank you [for recovering the necklace for me and keeping it safe].
But I have scoured David Salo's Introduction to Sindarin, and I do not see the verb "to thank" or a translation of the phrase "thank you". Nor do I see anune in the Sindarin-English dictionary part of ItS (one can assume that's because it's a conjugated verb, but I do not see it listed among verb root lists either).
Does anyone know what the direct translation was for what Aragorn said to Legolas? And does anyone know what the translations are for other moments in the films where there are no subtitles for what is spoken?
Thanks all! 
On a semi-related note- Legolas's grandfather, Oropher, left the southern lands of Mirkwood (then the Greenwood) when Galadriel and Celeborn moved in next door because Galadriel was Noldo, and also because the might of Khazad-dum was growing and the men of the Anduin vale were allied with the dwarves of Khazad-dum.
Now, we know that Quenya was the high-elven speech and akin to Latin in our world (a language of lore not a cradle-speech, I believe Tolkien puts it). However, Quenya was used mostly by the Noldor and didn't arrive in ME until the Noldor did. And the Sindar resented the Noldor, especially in Thingol's realm (from which it is purported that Thranduil and Oropher came from).
So, given that, do you think Legolas, as a prince of Mirkwood (and possibly Thranduil's heir, providing he didn't have siblings), would have known Quenya? Or do you think his father would have banned use of Quenya in his kingdom? Because I'm wondering if what Aragorn said was, in fact, Quenya not Sindarin. If that's the case, then it makes a whole lot of sense as to why I didn't find it in ItS.
Thoughts?
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(This post was edited by Cirashala on Feb 2 2019, 12:39am)
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Feb 2 2019, 12:53am
Post #2 of 9
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the Elvish Dialog List. Here are direct links to the pages for FOTR, TTT, ROTK
In this case, Aragorn says "Hannon le", which you are correct in thinking means "Thank you".
A lot of the movie Elvish was invented for the movies, so some of it's irregular and may not appear in word lists.
Silverlode
Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known.
(This post was edited by Silverlode on Feb 2 2019, 12:54am)
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
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Feb 2 2019, 2:05am
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When it comes to Tolkien and the movies, whatever it is has probably been done by someone somewhere! That site came out while the movies were being released, I think (the TTT and ROTK pages were added along the way). I'm glad it's still there.
Silverlode
Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known.
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Feb 14 2019, 8:39pm
Post #5 of 9
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By the way, Hannon le is popular Neo-Sindarin, and not necessarily a phrase Tolkien would have used (as noted above). Especially if you agree with (it's not the full argument here, incidentally, but ends with) . . .
It was John Garth who first noted that the Quenya word han *¡®beyond,¡¯ and its apparent source, the CE root ¡Ìhan- ¡®add to, increase, enhance, honour (espec. by gift),¡¯ published in connection with Tolkien¡¯s Quenya translations of the Lord¡¯s Prayer, likely provided the actual source of Q. *hanta- ¡®thank,¡¯ in the sense ¡®to increase, magnify, honor, glorify¡¯
And so the ¡°Neo-Sindarin¡± reconstruction *hanna- ¡®thank¡¯ and its signature phrase hannon le ¡®I thank you¡¯ disappear in a puff of phonology."
Carl Hostetter, Elvish as She is Spoke
I'm not saying Neo-elvish is bad, just that I like to draw the distinction between it and Tolkien's actual creations.
As I said, pedantic
Hmm, that copy and paste didn't work as well as I had hoped!
(This post was edited by Elthir on Feb 14 2019, 8:45pm)
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Cirashala
Valinor
Feb 14 2019, 9:22pm
Post #6 of 9
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I can't read it hardly at all  Do you think you could clean it up in a response to what it actually was supposed to say?
Is it then true that, in the absence of an actual Tolkien-created elvish verb for "to thank", Neo-elvish has its place, in a way? At least, if this person you mention didn't come up with hannon le to mean thank you, the movie would have resulted in the elves speaking elvish gibberish? Which I have no doubt that some very well-educated in Sindarin and Quenya Tolkien fans would have noticed and brought out the pitchforks in response? 
Legolas (hands Aragorn the Evenstar)
Aragorn: Hannon le.
Legolas (trying hard to suppress a loud laugh): Um, Aragorn?
Aragorn: What?
Legolas: You just called me a horse's (you know what).
Aragorn:....
Legolas (now visibly laughing)
Aragorn: Curse those online Neo-Sindarin-English dictionaries!
My writing and novels:
My Hobbit Fanfiction
My historical novel print and kindle version
My historical novels ebook version compatible with all ereaders
You can also find my novel at most major book retailers online (and for those outside the US who prefer a print book, you can find the print version at Book Depository). Search "Amazing Grace Amanda Longpre'" to find it.
Happy reading everyone!
(This post was edited by Cirashala on Feb 14 2019, 9:25pm)
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Feb 14 2019, 10:44pm
Post #7 of 9
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_____
"It was John Garth who first noted that the Quenya word han *"beyond," and its apparent source, the CE root han- "add to, increase, enhance, honour (espec. by gift)," published in connection with Tolkien’s Quenya translations of the Lord’s Prayer, likely provided the actual source of Q. *hanta- "thank, in the sense "to increase, magnify, honor, glorify"
Shortly after this, Bertrand Bellet noted the implication of this newly attested root and derivation for “Neo-Sindarin” *hanna- "thank," pointing out that since CE *h- disappears in Sindarin, CE *hantâ- would yield S. *anna-, not *hanna-. But anna- already exists as a Sindarin verb, for "give."
"And so the “Neo-Sindarin” reconstruction *hanna- "thank" and its signature phrase hannon le "I thank you" disappear in a puff of phonology." Carl Hostetter
_____
Hope that comes out better, It looked better in "Preview" anyway.
In any case, I'm not saying that the film Elvish isn't based on a study of Tolkien's languages, but that this is a good example of Neo-Elvish versus Tolkien's Elvish.
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Solicitr
Gondor
Apr 10 2019, 3:32pm
Post #9 of 9
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Simply put, Tolkien never created enough Sindarin vocabulary to make it usable as a translated language.
The film's Salo-created neo-Sindarin was, in effect, linguistic fan-fiction.
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