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Radagast

Tolkien R.J.J
Bree


Jan 31, 2:22am

Post #1 of 13 (993 views)
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Radagast Can't Post

My interest in the Istari continues.

“a worthy wizard, a master of shapes and changes of hue... and he has much lore of herbs and beats” a “friend of all beats and birds”
-Gandalf

“indeed, of all the istari, one only remained faithful.... for Radgast, the fourth, become envenomed of the many beast and birds that dwelt in Middle-earth, and forsook elves, men and spent his days among the wild creatures.”
-Unfinished tales The Istari


Radagast lived in western mirkwood and did not travel much. A “worthy wizard” and as Beorn described him “not bad” for a wizard is presented as an wizard who fell in love with nature so much that he turned from his mission. He is perhaps Tolkiens view of a normal powered istari to counter the better known Olorin “Wisest of the maiar” [Gandalf] and Saurman the leader of the order. He is presented as having much less wisdom and power than Gandalf and Saruman.


“Radagast is presented as a person of much less power and wisdom”
-Unfinished Tales

Saruman in particular seems to disregard radagast as a much lower being and uses his intellectual advantage into tricking him into helping Saruman capture Gandalf.

“Radagast the simple, Radagast the fool, yet he had just the wit to play the part that I set him”
-Sarumon

“I am a Christian, that fact can be deduced from my stories.”
-J.R.R Tolkien

“I am in fact a Hobbit (in all but size). I like gardens, trees and unmechanized farmlands; I smoke a pipe, and like good plain food (unrefrigerated), but detest French cooking; I like, and even dare to wear in these dull days, ornamental waistcoats. I am fond of mushrooms (out of a field); have a very simple sense of humour (which even my appreciative critics find tiresome); I go to bed late and get up late.”
J.R.R Tolkien

“Tolkien was a lifelong enemy of big government in every form, not just the harsher forms we find in soviet communism, German Nazism, or Italian fascism, but also as it manifested itself in British democratic socialism and the mongol state capitalism in other parts of the west.”
-Jonathan Witt and Jay W The Hobbit Party: The vision of freedom that Tolkien got and the west forgot


(This post was edited by Tolkien R.J.J on Jan 31, 2:27am)


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Jan 31, 9:49pm

Post #2 of 13 (919 views)
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Radagast is so good :D [In reply to] Can't Post

He was precisely as he should have been. I've already spewed quite a bit on my thoughts about Gandalf; and I see Radagast as no less important.

OK... I've always seen each of the Wizards as having a strength, curiosity and involvement according to their part of a whole. Gandalf was the wanderer and gatherer of kindred (and some eagles ;). Radagast was nature and focused more on the birds, beasts, and living foundation of Middle-earth. I wonder what part the Blue Wizards would have played? Saruman was the hub of the wheel of Wizards who brought all of the strengths together and... you'd think... bring a holistic watch over Middle-earth. But without the Blue Wizards' participation, the wheel is off balance.

Gandalf trusted in Radagast's strength and honesty and knew (respected) his limitations due to his charge as the Brown. Without that trust, the outcome of the War of the Ring could have been very different. Yes, that trust got him captured by the traitor Saruman, but even that encounter gave Gandalf very important information about the mind of Saruman and how complete his corruption was and his own plans. Ammunition to deal with him later and an understanding of what happened to Théoden when they reached Edoras. So Radagast sending Gandalf to Saruman was an important step in the knowledge Gandalf reaped. It also hooked Gandalf up with Shadowfax after his escape. Another strength brought to Gandalf the Grey, but more important to Gandalf the White. Everything happens for a reason.

Radagast reminds me more of Tom Bombadil. :)




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Tolkien R.J.J
Bree


Jan 31, 10:10pm

Post #3 of 13 (913 views)
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I must disagree [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
He was precisely as he should have been. I've already spewed quite a bit on my thoughts about Gandalf; and I see Radagast as no less important.

OK... I've always seen each of the Wizards as having a strength, curiosity and involvement according to their part of a whole. Gandalf was the wanderer and gatherer of kindred (and some eagles ;). Radagast was nature and focused more on the birds, beasts, and living foundation of Middle-earth. I wonder what part the Blue Wizards would have played? Saruman was the hub of the wheel of Wizards who brought all of the strengths together and... you'd think... bring a holistic watch over Middle-earth. But without the Blue Wizards' participation, the wheel is off balance.

Gandalf trusted in Radagast's strength and honesty and knew (respected) his limitations due to his charge as the Brown. Without that trust, the outcome of the War of the Ring could have been very different. Yes, that trust got him captured by the traitor Saruman, but even that encounter gave Gandalf very important information about the mind of Saruman and how complete his corruption was and his own plans. Ammunition to deal with him later and an understanding of what happened to Théoden when they reached Edoras. So Radagast sending Gandalf to Saruman was an important step in the knowledge Gandalf reaped. It also hooked Gandalf up with Shadowfax after his escape. Another strength brought to Gandalf the Grey, but more important to Gandalf the White. Everything happens for a reason.

Radagast reminds me more of Tom Bombadil. :)



I am not sure i can hold your position. I think Tolkien was clear the istari strayed from their intended missions. They failed.


The 'wizards', as such, had failed; or if you like: the crisis had become too grave and needed an enhancement of power
Letters 156


“He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. 'Naked I was sent back – for a brief time, until my task is done'. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time'.”
-Letters 156


As for the blue wizards I think that shows they did not do what they were meant to, nor saruman.

“I really do not know anything clearly about the other two – since they do not concern the history of the N.W. I think they went as emissaries to distant regions, East and South, far out of Númenórean range: missionaries to 'enemy-occupied' lands, as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.”
-J.R.R Tolkien Letters 211


Thus the wizards did fail and all but gandalf strayed from the mission.

“I am a Christian, that fact can be deduced from my stories.”
-J.R.R Tolkien

“I am in fact a Hobbit (in all but size). I like gardens, trees and unmechanized farmlands; I smoke a pipe, and like good plain food (unrefrigerated), but detest French cooking; I like, and even dare to wear in these dull days, ornamental waistcoats. I am fond of mushrooms (out of a field); have a very simple sense of humour (which even my appreciative critics find tiresome); I go to bed late and get up late.”
J.R.R Tolkien

“Tolkien was a lifelong enemy of big government in every form, not just the harsher forms we find in soviet communism, German Nazism, or Italian fascism, but also as it manifested itself in British democratic socialism and the mongol state capitalism in other parts of the west.”
-Jonathan Witt and Jay W The Hobbit Party: The vision of freedom that Tolkien got and the west forgot


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Jan 31, 10:56pm

Post #4 of 13 (912 views)
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I'm gonna drive you crazy :) [In reply to] Can't Post

As I said in my post re: Gandalf, I have not read the letters. I'm going to be a terrible debater here because I'm coming at it from a completely different place.
Thank you for being patient and so courteous. I'll bet I made you shake your head more than once ;) *high five*




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jlj93byu
Rivendell

Feb 1, 10:49pm

Post #5 of 13 (868 views)
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Radagast May Have Failed, But... [In reply to] Can't Post

While I think it's clear Radagast failed in that he strayed from his active role of directly helping Elves and Men, I've always felt he was still impactful in a positive way, and if the severity of Saruman's failure was a 10, Radagast's was far more forgiveable and perhaps only a 3 as he still had an impact on events in Middle-earth that were positive, and certainly didn't turn war-lord and seek to actively kill and rule over people. So while both failed, Radagast did not fall into evil as Saruman.

Given his original name of Aiwendil, or "bird-friend," and that Yavanna (goddess of plants and animals) was the Vala responsible for the selection and sending of Radagast to Middle-earth, one has to wonder if at least part of the reason Yavanna sent him was because she wanted him to accomplish what he did in terms of defending and protecting her domain.

I like the following description of Radagast from Tolkien:

Quote
He [Gandalf] differed from Radagast and Saruman in that he never turned aside from his appointed mission ('I was the Enemy of Sauron') and was unsparing of himself. Radagast was fond of beasts and birds, and found them easier to deal with; he did not become proud and domineering, but neglectful and easygoing, and he had very little to do with Elves or Men although obviously resistance to Sauron had to be sought chiefly in their cooperation.


Even Tolkien makes some significant distinctions between wizards who failed, intimating that while some failed greatly, others may have failed but still had a positive impact. While Saruman was proud and domineering, Radagast was not.

There's a great article at Tolkien Gateway specifically about Radagast's Failure, that's where I found the above shared quote.


(This post was edited by jlj93byu on Feb 1, 10:50pm)


Tolkien R.J.J
Bree


Feb 1, 11:41pm

Post #6 of 13 (863 views)
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Not at all- I enjoy your posts [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
As I said in my post re: Gandalf, I have not read the letters. I'm going to be a terrible debater here because I'm coming at it from a completely different place.
Thank you for being patient and so courteous. I'll bet I made you shake your head more than once ;) *high five*


Not even for a second. You are coming from the place Tolkien wanted you to, from your own thoughts on his published works. Tolkien new not all would take it as he would, and that is how he wanted it. I am quoting from a private letter not published materials.


You I think are looking at this more from Eru's perspective, me from a more direct Gandalf the grey/Valar perspective so we differ some. There is allot to support your views, I would recommend the book i referenced on the other thread to you.

“I am a Christian, that fact can be deduced from my stories.”
-J.R.R Tolkien

“I am in fact a Hobbit (in all but size). I like gardens, trees and unmechanized farmlands; I smoke a pipe, and like good plain food (unrefrigerated), but detest French cooking; I like, and even dare to wear in these dull days, ornamental waistcoats. I am fond of mushrooms (out of a field); have a very simple sense of humour (which even my appreciative critics find tiresome); I go to bed late and get up late.”
J.R.R Tolkien

“Tolkien was a lifelong enemy of big government in every form, not just the harsher forms we find in soviet communism, German Nazism, or Italian fascism, but also as it manifested itself in British democratic socialism and the mongol state capitalism in other parts of the west.”
-Jonathan Witt and Jay W The Hobbit Party: The vision of freedom that Tolkien got and the west forgot


kzer_za
Rivendell

Feb 2, 12:02am

Post #7 of 13 (861 views)
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Tolkien moved in a more positive direction on the blue wizards very late in his life [In reply to] Can't Post

In HoME XII he says that they led rebellions against Sauron in the East, even starting in the Second Age!

Quote
The other two came much earlier...in the second age...their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion...they must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of East.

He never developed it further, but I think this is a good change. Gives more nuance to Harad and other nations.

Their names in this version (not clear if these are their Maia or incarnated names): "Morinehtar and Romestamo. Darkness-slayer and East-helper."


(This post was edited by kzer_za on Feb 2, 12:11am)


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Feb 2, 12:32am

Post #8 of 13 (831 views)
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*high five* Thanks :D // [In reply to] Can't Post

 




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Tolkien R.J.J
Bree


Feb 2, 2:18am

Post #9 of 13 (833 views)
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Thanks [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
In HoME XII he says that they led rebellions against Sauron in the East, even starting in the Second Age!

Quote
The other two came much earlier...in the second age...their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion...they must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of East.

He never developed it further, but I think this is a good change. Gives more nuance to Harad and other nations.

Their names in this version (not clear if these are their Maia or incarnated names): "Morinehtar and Romestamo. Darkness-slayer and East-helper."



Thanks. I still need to read that one so i will save comments until I have. This would contradict his thoughts post LOTR in his essay on the istari and from his letters. Was this a draft? a note? what year?

“I am a Christian, that fact can be deduced from my stories.”
-J.R.R Tolkien

“I am in fact a Hobbit (in all but size). I like gardens, trees and unmechanized farmlands; I smoke a pipe, and like good plain food (unrefrigerated), but detest French cooking; I like, and even dare to wear in these dull days, ornamental waistcoats. I am fond of mushrooms (out of a field); have a very simple sense of humour (which even my appreciative critics find tiresome); I go to bed late and get up late.”
J.R.R Tolkien

“Tolkien was a lifelong enemy of big government in every form, not just the harsher forms we find in soviet communism, German Nazism, or Italian fascism, but also as it manifested itself in British democratic socialism and the mongol state capitalism in other parts of the west.”
-Jonathan Witt and Jay W The Hobbit Party: The vision of freedom that Tolkien got and the west forgot


Tolkien R.J.J
Bree


Feb 3, 3:24pm

Post #10 of 13 (777 views)
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Did he die? [In reply to] Can't Post

He was not among the council of the wise instead Elrond and Galadriel and the better known Istari were. It seems when news went out from Rivendell to have Radagast join the council he could not be found. Neither did he return to the west after the war of the ring, it appears he had died.

Wilt thou learn the lore || that was long secret
of the Five that came || from a far country?
One only returned. || Others never again
—J.R.R Tolkien

“I am a Christian, that fact can be deduced from my stories.”
-J.R.R Tolkien

“I am in fact a Hobbit (in all but size). I like gardens, trees and unmechanized farmlands; I smoke a pipe, and like good plain food (unrefrigerated), but detest French cooking; I like, and even dare to wear in these dull days, ornamental waistcoats. I am fond of mushrooms (out of a field); have a very simple sense of humour (which even my appreciative critics find tiresome); I go to bed late and get up late.”
J.R.R Tolkien

“Tolkien was a lifelong enemy of big government in every form, not just the harsher forms we find in soviet communism, German Nazism, or Italian fascism, but also as it manifested itself in British democratic socialism and the mongol state capitalism in other parts of the west.”
-Jonathan Witt and Jay W The Hobbit Party: The vision of freedom that Tolkien got and the west forgot


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Feb 6, 5:39pm

Post #11 of 13 (709 views)
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Among his last thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Was this a draft? a note? what year?


The comments that kzer_za referred to about the blue wizards were part of a "small collection of very late manuscripts, preserved together, closely similar in appearance, and all written on the blank sides of publication notices issued by Allen and Unwin." Christopher notes that "one of these writings was stated by him to be developed from a reply to a correspondent sent on 9 December 1972, and another is dated by him 20 November 1972. I think it very probable that the whole collection belongs to that time, the last year of his life: he died on the second of September, 1973, at the age of eighty-one."

These comments were related to his late writings about Glorinfindel, and whether he was one of the Istari (Tolkien concluded he was not), some of which is also discussed in Unfinished Tales. The note that k_z cites is among some very rough notes that Christopher had described in Unfinished Tales as uninterpretable. However, in HoMe 12 he says "with longer scrutiny I have been largely able to make out."

Hope that helps.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire

(This post was edited by Voronwë_the_Faithful on Feb 6, 5:41pm)


Hamfast Gamgee
Grey Havens

Feb 7, 9:35am

Post #12 of 13 (691 views)
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Well, not necessarily died [In reply to] Can't Post

Rather a negative way of looking at it, if you ask me! Wink Radagast sounds like a person who could often have been away from home, Or it is possible that considering the great events that were happening in ME at the time, that something else occurred amongst his nature friends to get his attention,


CuriousG
Half-elven


Feb 7, 1:56pm

Post #13 of 13 (665 views)
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Maybe died, or [In reply to] Can't Post

I for some reason think that maybe he just went native, Bombadil-style, turning his back on everyone else and finding some little land where he protected all the animals. It seemed that the trend of his life was to go more and more native anyway. But we don't know, of course.

 
 

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