|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
entmaiden
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jan 29 2019, 12:48am
Post #101 of 161
(9555 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Let me introduce you to the Encyclopedia of Arda
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
which is a great resource. See it here.
|
|
|
entmaiden
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jan 29 2019, 12:52am
Post #102 of 161
(9557 views)
Shortcut
|
Like you, I love how I get to learn so much backstory. And it's a nice way to get to know the members of the Fellowship who were new to me.
|
|
|
Cygnus
Lorien
Jan 29 2019, 5:22pm
Post #103 of 161
(9465 views)
Shortcut
|
I couldn't believe how fantastic the Encyclopedia of Arda is. Thanks so much for sharing this. Until I came here I really had no idea how vast the world of Tolkien is. Not just him of course, but I mean everything that has come after him, like this website for example. Clearly I will never run out of things to learn and study. It can be overwhelming but since it's the good flavor of overwhelming I'm not complaining!
"I found it is the small things.....everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keeps the darkness at bay.....simple acts of kindness and love." - Gandalf (movie quote)
|
|
|
Cygnus
Lorien
Jan 29 2019, 5:26pm
Post #104 of 161
(9463 views)
Shortcut
|
You're right. I'm simply loving the backstories. I thought to myself....hmm, book Galdalf is a little smarter than movie Gandalf when dealing with Saruman because he was a little quicker to figure out that the White Wizard had given into evil.
"I found it is the small things.....everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keeps the darkness at bay.....simple acts of kindness and love." - Gandalf (movie quote)
|
|
|
entmaiden
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jan 29 2019, 8:15pm
Post #105 of 161
(9441 views)
Shortcut
|
is still flourishing after so many years! There's so much to learn. TORn was my first discussion board, but there are folks here who discussed Tolkien on the old USENET. And there are stories of fanzines that got passed around, decades ago.
Encyclopedia of Arda is one of many resources, but I find it the most approachable. Some people quibble with some of the information posted, but overall it's a great source, and it's lots of fun!
|
|
|
Cygnus
Lorien
Jan 30 2019, 2:47am
Post #106 of 161
(9395 views)
Shortcut
|
I just finished The Ring Goes South. We're in the coldest snap of the year here on the Great Lakes so reading about the Fellowship being stuck in the snow made me shiver. I had to turn the thermostat up. I do have a question. Elrond said "For nothing is evil in the beginning. Even Sauron was not so." Do the appendices or Silmillarion describe the old good Sauron?
I did see Silverlode mentioned for the first time. That sounded familiar! I bet I'll bump into other screen names before I'm through.
Here's another one of those quotes that shows Tolkien's creativity. "For many sunless days an icy blast came from the mountains in the east and no garment seemed to be able to keep out its searching fingers." Kinda creepy but brilliant.
It was interesting to hear them come up with different ideas for what to do with the Ring. I don't know why but I never would have thought that that was something that needed discussed. The movie scene of the Ring being destroyed is so iconic that the thought of any alternative had never crossed my mind.
"I found it is the small things.....everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keeps the darkness at bay.....simple acts of kindness and love." - Gandalf (movie quote)
|
|
|
CuriousG
Half-elven
Jan 30 2019, 5:22pm
Post #107 of 161
(9289 views)
Shortcut
|
Elrond said "For nothing is evil in the beginning. Even Sauron was not so." Do the appendices or Silmillarion describe the old good Sauron?
We never get any information on Sauron the Good. He was an early convert to the #1 evil, Melkor/Morgoth, and became his #2 man, then took over the role of Dark Lord when Melkor was cast out of the world.
So Elrond is going wayyyyyyyy back to the time before the world was made, when there were only angelic beings in heaven who sang creation into existence along with the Creator-god who made them. Back then, everyone started out good, but even then, the seeds of evil were being sown. This was all before Elrond was born, but since he's as smart as the Internet, he knows just about everything. (And I love Elrond, so that's just a joke.)
It's worth noting that Elrond pretty much disappears from book, unlike the movies, and yet he's a pivotal figure in the larger history of the struggle against evil:
1. His father was Earendil, whose light powers the Phial of Galadriel that is more important in the book than the movies.
2. He married Galadriel's daughter, and he has blood ties to everyone important in the High Elven royal families, including descent from Beren & Luthien, the most famous romantic pair in the whole Tolkien world.
|
|
|
Cygnus
Lorien
Jan 30 2019, 5:30pm
Post #108 of 161
(9284 views)
Shortcut
|
Thanks CuriousG. I don't think I'll ever stop being amazed at the vastness of Tolkien!
"as smart as the Internet" LOL I'm going to use that one in conversations!
I
"I found it is the small things.....everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keeps the darkness at bay.....simple acts of kindness and love." - Gandalf (movie quote)
|
|
|
Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Jan 30 2019, 6:19pm
Post #109 of 161
(9274 views)
Shortcut
|
Depending on how deeply you go into Tolkien's writings, you may learn some pretty interesting things about the history of Sauron in different stages of Tolkien's legendarium.
Just sayin'.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
|
|
|
Chen G.
Gondor
Jan 30 2019, 6:37pm
Post #110 of 161
(9273 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Elrond is much more significant than it first seems, yes
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
he has blood ties to everyone important in the High Elven royal families, including descent from Beren & Luthien.
Elrond is related to just about everyone from the First Age. Not just Beren (and therefore the House of Beor) and Luthien (and therefore the royal line of the Sindar, as well as to the Maiar) but also Tuor (and therefore the houses of Hador and Haleth) and Idril (and therefore the royal line of the Noldor). Through his marriage with Celebrian, his children are also descendants of the Vanyar.
While he doesn't take the title of king, he's essentially the heir to the crown of the Noldor in Middle Earth.
(This post was edited by Chen G. on Jan 30 2019, 6:38pm)
|
|
|
hanne
Lorien
Jan 30 2019, 9:52pm
Post #111 of 161
(9267 views)
Shortcut
|
|
For some reason, that tickled my imagination
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
...and it went on quite a tangent! Anyway:
The scene: a quiet writing nook in Rivendell. It includes an elegant table in the mid-Inglorian style, which is completely obscured by parchment and inkpots. Bilbo, tongue between his teeth, is scribbling on one of the papers with a rather battered quill.
Frodo strolls in.
Frodo: Hullo Bilbo! A new poem?
Bilbo: Eh? No, no, my lad. I was just adding a name to my family tree for Elrond.
Merry, Pippin and Sam race in.
Merry: Did someone say family tree?
Pippin: Just try to keep a hobbit away from genealogy. Show us!
The five hobbits crowd around the parchment.
***
Sam: So Master Elrond is descended from Elves?
Frodo: From all the best families, Sam! All three Elvish tribes – Vanyar through his great-grandmother, Noldor through his great-grandfather, and Teleri through several relations on his mother’s side.
Bilbo: And it’s better than that, my lad. His great-great-grandmother was one of the Ainur.
Pippin: Who?
Frodo: Eru Iluvatar created three of the peoples of Middle Earth personally, Pip: Ainur, Elves, Men.
Sam: Begging your pardon sir, but what about Hobbits?
Merry: I think we must be related to Men, very far back. Look, Elrond has lots of Mannish ancestry. Perhaps we could trace a connection?
Frodo: He’s connected to all three Houses of the Edain through his double paternal great-grandfather, his great-great grandmother on his father’s side and his father’s father, but I’m not sure we could trace Hobbits to anyone so elevated.
Sam: Not Gamgees, maybe. But why not Bagginses, or Tooks, or Brandybucks?
Frodo: It’s special enough that Elrond has Ainur, Elves and Men in his family tree Sam; adding Hobbits might be a bit much.
***
Elrond: *clears throat* Excuse me for interrupting Bilbo, but could I borrow your pen? I’m just addressing this letter to my cross-cousin four times removed on my mother’s side. She’s one of the Eagles of the Misty Mountains and I wanted to ask her if I’d left my Nauglamir in her spare room.
Bilbo’s hand twitches between his chart and Elrond, but he politely hands over the quill.
Elrond: Thanks. Of course, I might have left it in Avernian back in the First Age. I must ask my mother’s brother’s aunt’s cousin’s sister’s grandson’s nephew. He might remember.
Bilbo: *reaching for the quill* Who is your mother’s brother’s aunt’s cousin’s sister’s grandson’s nephew, Lord Elrond?
Elrond: One of the Ents. It takes him a yen or two to write back, of course, but he keeps in touch with everyone so he could also help me ask some of the less savoury branches of the family.
Merry: Parallel cousins from the opposite moietie?
Elrond: Well yes for the Trolls. I think we’re into phratries and cognatic consanguineous exogametes before it comes to the Werewolves. I hope I won’t have to take it that far. Probably one of the cats of Queen Beruthiel has it.
Bilbo: *eyes bug out*
Elrond: They’re just an apical clan.
Bilbo: I *need* that pen back! Now!
P.S. All these kinship terms are mentioned on Wikipedia, but not being a Hobbit I haven’t a clue what they mean :)
|
|
|
Lissuin
Valinor
Jan 30 2019, 11:00pm
Post #112 of 161
(9244 views)
Shortcut
|
This is hysterical! Or you're hysterical. Or I'm hysterical after reading it!
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Very very clever, funny and hysterical.  Thanks for doing and sharing.
|
|
|
N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Jan 30 2019, 11:23pm
Post #113 of 161
(9244 views)
Shortcut
|
|
"the movie scene of the Ring being destroyed is so iconic"
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Well, I do look forward to your reaction when we get to that point in the story.
As for the characters' uncertainty about whether Bilbo's ring really is Sauron's Ring and if so, what to do about it, think about how you would react now if someone claimed to have found something that was 5,000 years old that had been assumed to be destroyed 3,000 years ago and which, they claimed, was a very powerful weapon but also a danger to human civilization.
Treachery, treachery I fear; treachery of that miserable creature.
But so it must be. Let us remember that a traitor may betray himself and do good that he does not intend.
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Discuss Tolkien's life and works in the Reading Room!
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
How to find old Reading Room discussions.
|
|
|
Plurmo
Rohan
Jan 30 2019, 11:27pm
Post #114 of 161
(9236 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Wait! This is the hour of Doom!
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
We may be approaching the solution to the riddle of the origin of the Talking Purse.
|
|
|
Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Jan 31 2019, 4:08am
Post #115 of 161
(9206 views)
Shortcut
|
Wait till they get on to the epigenetics. Bilbo may sprout gills or something.
|
|
|
Cygnus
Lorien
Jan 31 2019, 4:22am
Post #116 of 161
(9212 views)
Shortcut
|
I just finished Journey in the Dark. When Pippin dropped the stone in the well I thought something bad was going to happen. I was then on pins and needles waiting for something bad to happen for the entire chapter. The anticipation was as scary as if something bad did happen...which doesn't happen! I was of course surprised at Daeron's Runes since I thought we had passed that point back at the pebble drop......Equally surprised that it was Balin's remains in there. Who did the movie say it was? ( I can't believe I can't remember since I've seen it so many times) Thanks again for your responses.
"I found it is the small things.....everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keeps the darkness at bay.....simple acts of kindness and love." - Gandalf (movie quote)
(This post was edited by Cygnus on Jan 31 2019, 4:24am)
|
|
|
entmaiden
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jan 31 2019, 4:54am
Post #117 of 161
(9196 views)
Shortcut
|
I loved the moment in the movie when Gandalf raises his staff and we see Moria for the first time. Just a beautiful moment. I still get chills.
Book-Moria is more frightening, I think, because we don’t get that visual moment. And when the drums start - frightening!
|
|
|
CuriousG
Half-elven
Jan 31 2019, 5:13am
Post #118 of 161
(9194 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Yes, I thought book-Moria was scarier for the reason Cygnus gives
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
After Pippin drops the stone in the well and there's the initial tapping, I kept waiting and waiting for the attack that never seemed to come.
|
|
|
CuriousG
Half-elven
Jan 31 2019, 5:18am
Post #119 of 161
(9194 views)
Shortcut
|
|
The movie definitely says it was Balin's tomb
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
But since FOTR was made long before The Hobbit movies, only book-lovers would get the reference, I think.
I read The Hobbit first, then LOTR, and I liked Balin as the Dwarf who most looked out for Bilbo and visited him later in the Shire, so it was sad to find him dead, and sad to think how Bilbo would take the news.
|
|
|
Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jan 31 2019, 5:39am
Post #120 of 161
(9195 views)
Shortcut
|
"Here lies Balin, son of Fundin, Lord of Moria".
Silverlode
Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known.
|
|
|
Cygnus
Lorien
Jan 31 2019, 12:15pm
Post #121 of 161
(9155 views)
Shortcut
|
Wow, I've seen the movies a dozen times and for some reason never caught the word Balin. Assuming it was said clearly I guess it's just because I'm just not as sharp as I used to be. I would have been a terrible detective because I do miss a lot of things. Not only that but I'm not always great at putting 2 and 2 together. I'm embarressed. I appreciate the information though.
"I found it is the small things.....everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keeps the darkness at bay.....simple acts of kindness and love." - Gandalf (movie quote)
|
|
|
Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jan 31 2019, 1:37pm
Post #123 of 161
(9145 views)
Shortcut
|
Tolkien is very dense with names. And not having known of the character before hearing the name, it doesn't mean much to the average movie-first watcher, which makes it hard to remember. In the movie, Gimli was excited to go to Moria because "My cousin Balin will give us a royal welcome". But if you watch LOTR without being familiar with The Hobbit first, then you don't know that Gimli being introduced as the son of Gloin has any special significance, or that his "cousin" Balin does either.
After you finish your read-through, I suspect you'll notice a lot of little details and references in the films that flew past you before because you didn't yet have a frame of reference for them. 
Silverlode
Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known.
(This post was edited by Silverlode on Jan 31 2019, 1:39pm)
|
|
|
CuriousG
Half-elven
Jan 31 2019, 1:51pm
Post #124 of 161
(9140 views)
Shortcut
|
I mean, how many Tolkien fanatics like me remember that Balin's father was Fundin? That's not a detail I can remember.
The advantage of reading and re-reading the books is that things do sink in, plus unlike a movie, you have the luxury of flipping to the index and past chapters and other aids to figure things out. But a lot happens in movie scenes like Moria, so the mention of someone in a tomb is going to fly by as fast as an Orc arrow.
I imagine the normal human brain's inner dialogue sitting through a Tolkien movie, without having read the books first, as something like this:
"Those blond guys on horses are the riders of Rohan. Ro-han? Roe-hann? Something like that. Does that kingdom have a sign with its name written anywhere so I can figure it out?"
"Look they're fighting Orcs, or Uruk-hai. That's the same thing, right?"
"Well, Orcs are Orcs, but Sow-ron was making a new breed of them in his basement."
"No, that was Saruman in the basement, not Sow-ron. Sow-ron is the big eye."
"Which one of them is in Mordoor?"
"I'm not sure. Is it the same as Eisen Guard? They're both bad guys."
"Oh, forget all that, now we're back to Sam and Frodo. Hmmm, Where's Mary and Pippin? And why does Mary have a girl's name, but Pippin doesn't?"
>>>At some point you just can't sort it all out anymore.
|
|
|
hanne
Lorien
Jan 31 2019, 3:33pm
Post #125 of 161
(9123 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Must be all of them at once :)
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
We’re all related, after all :) Thank you Lissuin, Plurmo and Ethel Duath; I am glad you had fun.
And Cygnus, my apologies for taking space in your thread! You will find out more about hobbit love for family trees when you come to the Appendices.
I did like what you said about the tension of Moria. Yes! I wonder if it’s worse to know a Balrog is coming (having seen the movie) or not to know what’s coming (book-firster). I think if I were reading the books for the first time today I would constantly be expecting to lose one of the Fellowship, since there are so many of them. Back when I did read the books first I was too innocent in the ways of authors to suspect anything like that.
|
|
|
|
|
