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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Middle-earth TV Series Discussion:
PJ confirms involvement with the scripts and shared universe with movies
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uncle Iorlas
Rivendell


Dec 29 2018, 7:27pm

Post #26 of 140 (2716 views)
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I don't think you've thought this through. [In reply to] Can't Post

I have to laugh. In the past year I spent a couple months working full time on a screen adaptation of a book. This very book. This very project. So to be continually told that I don't understand the demands of a screen adaptation runs afoul of two issues: first, that it has zip to do with anything I'm saying, and second, jeez, kids. I actually do.

Anyway, the only point I'm trying to make on this particular thread is that it's wrongheaded to ask people you disagree with to simply forbear talking. Mae Govannen, I was interpreting not assuming; by all means explain what else you're trying to prevent.

In the meantime, you guys are speaking on behalf of an overwhelming majority in here, and now the both of you have sternly admonished the tiny minority ejo disagree with you that they *should not even state their case.* It's not a good look.

A side note: how long would it take to dig up a dozen posts in which someone used precisely the word "perfect" to describe Jackson's work? How about if we limit it to threads in which you were active? I haven't seen one person reprimanded for that, so if indeed you feel in some abstract way that no one should say that, it clearly doesn't stir you to action in the same way defaming Jackson does. But don't start now, either. Just let people talk. It'll be okay.

Personally, whenever anybody says "perfect" in that context, I just change it to "precious" in my head, and then I feel a wonderful clarity about it all.


Chen G.
Lorien

Dec 29 2018, 7:54pm

Post #27 of 140 (2711 views)
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It would seem *you* didn't think this through [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
the only point I'm trying to make on this particular thread is that it's wrongheaded to ask people you disagree with to simply forbear talking.


No one, I think (and hope) is saying that. People simply have a hard time with sensationalism in film criticism. i.e. when I hear a film being described as "trash" or, at the inverse, as "perfect" - I have a knee-jerk reaction.


2ndBreffest
Rivendell


Dec 29 2018, 8:02pm

Post #28 of 140 (2701 views)
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well [In reply to] Can't Post

If it makes you feel any better, there's an old saying that goes, "One man's trash is another man's treasure." So there's that.


uncle Iorlas
Rivendell


Dec 29 2018, 8:09pm

Post #29 of 140 (2701 views)
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Not gonna fly. [In reply to] Can't Post

You literally told me that I should not speak a certain sentiment. It's right there in black and white.

What's not there is any instance of you scolding someone for indeed describing Jackson fare as perfect, although that is far the lesser issue.


Chen G.
Lorien

Dec 29 2018, 8:25pm

Post #30 of 140 (2690 views)
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No [In reply to] Can't Post

I was very percise in my phrasing, which was "I'd advise against using such harsh words as "preposterous" so very lightly."

If you read into it as silencing or scolding, than that's your interpertation. Text-based communication is a very limited medium, so I'd hazard against reading too much into others' words.

And I do recall that when the terminology of "perfect" came up, that I did say that I didn't deem The Lord of the Rings perfect, although "its better than a lot of films that are perfect." I also wouldn't say its the further of the two truths.


(This post was edited by Chen G. on Dec 29 2018, 8:32pm)


2ndBreffest
Rivendell


Dec 29 2018, 8:32pm

Post #31 of 140 (2685 views)
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really though [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think "preposterous" is that harsh of a word. You should see the words people use to describe PJ in the Youtube comments sections. oh boy!


Chen G.
Lorien

Dec 29 2018, 8:56pm

Post #32 of 140 (2680 views)
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Two wrongs don't make a right [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Ataahua
Superuser


Dec 29 2018, 8:59pm

Post #33 of 140 (2685 views)
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Let's put an end to this sub-thread. [In reply to] Can't Post

Discussions about discussions and the meaning behind board members' posts always go down a rabbit-hole and end up nowhere good. If you wish to continue, please take it to private messages.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauronís master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Mari D.
Bree


Dec 29 2018, 11:32pm

Post #34 of 140 (2649 views)
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I think the point is both ... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
the point of an adaptation is not to create on screen something that fans of the book will appreciate.


It isn't.

The point is to maintain the core themes and rudimentary plot of the source material.


If you adapt a work for it's quality, try to preserve that quality, imo, or you might as well adapt some other work. The question is, what is the core quality of the work and what is not.

Of course, books and movies will be different, again, the question is, are the changes in question necessary or unnecessary ... if I were directing an adaption I would like to stay as faithful as possible to the original. Else, I'd call it my own interpretation. That's because I'm a very detailed person, and I care for "the pure essence" of things and so I'd wish to preserve the essence of things, even down to details.

Ah, that leads to another question: Is a director directing an adaption supposed to make the franchise partly his/hers or is he not? In other words, is he supposed to add his own distinct flavour to the mixture as he thinks it's fitting, as opposed to valuing the voice of original and rather humbly refraining from adding his own as much as possible?

I am aware some of these things are a matter of degrees and maybe it's these degrees that we disagree on sometimes ...


(This post was edited by Mari D. on Dec 29 2018, 11:36pm)


mae govannen
Tol Eressea


Dec 30 2018, 4:13am

Post #35 of 140 (2621 views)
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Well said! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)


Victariongreyjoy
Lorien


Jan 4, 5:09pm

Post #36 of 140 (2526 views)
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Peter Jackson [In reply to] Can't Post

I would love a shared universe with the movies, but don't let Jackson control every creative decisions. After seeing how Mortal Engines totally flopped at bashed by the critics, I think it's safer to keep him away as possible.


Cirashala
Tol Eressea


Jan 4, 7:16pm

Post #37 of 140 (2519 views)
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IMHO [In reply to] Can't Post

I would be ok with PJ on it, BUT only if there's someone who is not afraid to tell him, "That's stupid. Don't do that!" when he starts getting too ridiculous for plausibility.

He has shown that he can produce cinematic gold- when he's not let completely loose (though to be fair, the studio, Walsh, and Boyens were largely responsible for the horrible Hobbit love triangle stupidity and ruining Tauriel and Legolas, both of which had the potential to be excellent characters otherwise).

I think if PJ collaborates on the TV series WITH REINING IN if his ideas get too bizarre, it will end up being a beautiful series. But if you let him have a go of it like a 12 year old with candy, Red Bull and a newly released video game, it could get a little too over the top at points.

So if there's someone involved who can tell PJ where to go if something isn't working or looks stupid/contrived/implausible/youfillintheblank, I would be completely ok with it.

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Happy reading everyone!


Eruonen
Valinor


Jan 4, 7:38pm

Post #38 of 140 (2503 views)
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Agree 100% [In reply to] Can't Post

 


2ndBreffest
Rivendell


Jan 4, 7:59pm

Post #39 of 140 (2494 views)
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yes [In reply to] Can't Post

It is likely that Amazon will want PJ to be involved in some way, but the writing should be left to more capable hands. He is really good at the technical side of things...not so much the storytelling side, which will be the most challenging aspect of this series as there isn't much from Tolkien to guide them. Jackson, Boyens and Walsh wrote the script for Mortal Engines, which is now one of the biggest bombs of 2018 and its being almost universally panned as having one of the worst screenplays ever put to paper. But I agree, there certainly needs to be someone else involved to keep his tendency towards excess in check.


Chen G.
Lorien

Jan 4, 8:08pm

Post #40 of 140 (2492 views)
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No [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I would be ok with PJ on it, BUT only if there's someone who is not afraid to tell him, "That's stupid. Don't do that!" when he starts getting too ridiculous for plausibility.

He has shown that he can produce cinematic gold- when he's not let completely loose.


Jackson had the last say on each and every one of his films, so this narrative just doesn't stick, I'm afraid.

Even on The Fellowship of the Ring, no one was in a position to overrule Peter. He had final cut rights from the outset.

And really, the question isn't whether the filmmaker has the final say (which any major filmmaker has) but whether or not that filmmaker is beyond reproach. Jackson clearly isn't, and unlike what this narrative would suggest, has been talked out of certain ideas by his cast and crew on numerous occasions.


(This post was edited by Chen G. on Jan 4, 8:19pm)


2ndBreffest
Rivendell


Jan 4, 8:25pm

Post #41 of 140 (2483 views)
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exactly the point [In reply to] Can't Post

The LotR movies were not perfect and would have benefited from having someone there to overrule some of his not so great decisions...it would have gone down a little like this; "Hey Peter, I know you think it's a great idea to have Arwen show up and save the day and carry Frodo to safety across the river, but that's a pretty important scene in the book and to Frodo's character development, so we're going to have to say no. Also, that Orc that looks like an under-baked scone, lets go with something a bit more traditional. We'll let you film a few more Gimli fart scenes, but only for the special extended editions."


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jan 4, 8:47pm

Post #42 of 140 (2475 views)
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This sounds like every parent's nightmare [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
But if you let him have a go of it like a 12 year old with candy, Red Bull and a newly released video game, it could get a little too over the top at points.





CuriousG
Half-elven


Jan 4, 8:51pm

Post #43 of 140 (2476 views)
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Hyberbole seems all too common these days; I blame click bait [In reply to] Can't Post

Seriously. "Celebrity X had the PERFECT response to Celebrity Y's trashing them. Click here." And then it gets overused in social media, so everyone had a PERFECT hamburger and fries for dinner last night, and I have a knee-jerk reaction too.


Archestratie
The Shire

Jan 10, 6:51pm

Post #44 of 140 (1814 views)
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Yes! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
That's from a Peter Jackson interview for a Spanish newspaper promoting Mortal Engines (translation from Spanish is mine):


Quote
Q - Have you been involved in the script of "The Lord of the Rings" series?

A - They called me, but I have no experience in TV medium. I offered my help to develop the scripts, in case they needed it at some point, but I rejected the responsibility of controlling something I had never done before. I have helped them with the script, but a series of those characteristics needs an experienced person. I'm excited about the series and, of course, I have not closed the door to Amazon. I'm grateful that they want to do the series and that they develop it in the same world as the movies.


Here is the link to the whole interview (in Spanish): https://www.abc.es/...ak75NIGO5cohcvSzsI_k


Well, this looks like great news to me!


Noria
Gondor

Jan 11, 9:22pm

Post #45 of 140 (1583 views)
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PJ is all one package, both the sublime and the ridiculous. [In reply to] Can't Post

In the last couple of months I've been re-watching the Appendices of LotR and TH. I've also been reading Ian Nathan's "Anything You Can Imagine" about the making of LotR and in part, TH.

If there is one thing that's clear about PJ it is that he is his own film maker and has the final word about his movies. He is collaborative and likes to hear ideas from cast and crew , and of course he and Walsh are partners in every way. Boyens is in that mix too. But Jackson's movies are HIS movies and I can't see him accepting a situation in which someone else had real creative control over his work. With LotR and TH, he was pretty adept at evading studio interference.

So you can either reject PJ's work outright or accept that you are going to get both extremes, the great and not so great, in everything he makes.


2ndBreffest
Rivendell


Jan 12, 1:03pm

Post #46 of 140 (1459 views)
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well [In reply to] Can't Post

...if that's the case, it's best to move on from PJ.


Noria
Gondor

Jan 12, 6:07pm

Post #47 of 140 (1381 views)
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For some people, alas, it might be better to move on from PJ. [In reply to] Can't Post

He is what he is and always has been, though like everyone else he must learn and grow. He may just not have grown in the direction that some would prefer.

PJ was fully formed and experienced as a writer-director (whatever one thinks of his earlier films) when he began LotR and his partnership with Walsh was part of that. He says he makes movies that he would like to see; now that I think of it, isnít that in part why Tolkien claimed to have written LotR?

Regardless, PJ doesnít hesitate to use special effects to build his worlds, peoples and creatures and loves to employ the most cutting edge methods to put what his imagination creates on film. He likes big, improbable action sequences and bigger battles, lots of gore, and certain kinds of humour. Thatís the downside for some with both LotR and TH.

The upside is great world building, compelling stories, captivating characterizations created by spot-on casting and fine acting, great visual and auditory beauty (RIP Andrew Lesnie), and many subtle, lovely and even sublime scenes and moments.

As Iíve said elsewhere, IMO the Lord of the Rings and Hobbit trilogies are not so dissimilar except that TH has a lot more added material and, most markedly, a different tone. PJ eschewed the gravitas and self-importance that was part of what made LotR so great in favour of a lighter, more comedic and happier approach to TH, at least for the first two movies.


Chen G.
Lorien

Jan 12, 8:36pm

Post #48 of 140 (1351 views)
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The lighter tone is really in the first film [In reply to] Can't Post

Where its refreshingly different. There's still some of that lightness in the earlier passages of The Desolation of Smaug, but for the most part the bulk of The Hobbit trilogy is tonally akin to The Lord of the Rings.

The Lord of the Rings deals with a theme of corruption, but - with the exception of Gollum - it never goes quite as far as it does with Thorin, and it isn't as front-and-center, either. The closer Thorin gets to his goal, the more dour it gets: When he sails to the feet of the mountain, instead of being a triumphant moment, its quite foreboding. He looks all imperious and his theme plays not in a celebratory fashion, but a portentous one.

And, of course, after Erebor is reclaimed, its all empty and broken and dark. The characters are cornered in it by the Lakemen and Elves. That's a very sobering idea, as well.

Some of the imagery is quite bold, too. I love that the Dwarves are motivated to take down Smaug by seeing the charred remains of their kinsmen, including a toddler. When was the last time we saw that kind of imagery in a tentpole blockbuster?

Fili's death, too, is quite bold. Its effectively an execution, and the presentation is very matter-of-fact. For a moment, I thought I was watching a movie directed by Clint Eastwood.


skyofcoffeebeans
Rivendell

Jan 13, 12:38am

Post #49 of 140 (1265 views)
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Can you imagine Alfird toitering about in his bra at Helm's Deep or Minas Tirith? [In reply to] Can't Post

I can't.

Your description of these components of the trilogy is beautiful, but it can't rid the tonal violations that exist in all three films, jambags and all.


Chen G.
Lorien

Jan 13, 8:34am

Post #50 of 140 (1214 views)
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Yeah [In reply to] Can't Post

But theyíre few and far between enough that they donít undo the tone of the film: just violate it, to use your words, momentarily.

For the most part, the trilogy gradually morphs into quite bleak stuff. Basically, because it calls into question the premise itself, as if to say: ďwell, is retaking Erebor really worth it?Ē

You donít see that kind of questioning being branded around in other tentpole film series, because thatís not a question you can really pose when the premise is predicated upon defeating some absolute evil like Voldemort, the Empire, or the Ring for that matter.

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