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"The old that is strong . . ." NYTimes article about Old English.
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CuriousG
Half-elven


Jan 8, 2:19am

Post #26 of 45 (233 views)
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I was thinking of "old modern" English too [In reply to] Can't Post

How you'd see sentences from Colonial times with capitalized nouns like: "And now we will discuss how the Nature of a Republic is respect for the Natural Rights of Man." But definitely not something you see now that's considered appropriate.


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Jan 8, 4:51am

Post #27 of 45 (230 views)
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Or Kindergarten! [In reply to] Can't Post

If I understand the article, kenning is something more than stacking nouns, for instance word nerd, or lightbulb; rather, itís doing so to evoke an idea apart from the words. This is why a lightbulb is just a lightbulb, but kindergarten (childrengarden) is a school for little ones.



dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jan 8, 11:48am

Post #28 of 45 (217 views)
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Oh yes! [In reply to] Can't Post

The concept of a "garden" where little minds can grow. Smile

A question for any of our 'sibs who are German-speakers: what are some of the longest words in this language?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I desired dragons with a profound desire"


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jan 8, 3:06pm

Post #29 of 45 (205 views)
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Ah, thanks for the clarification on that nuance. Makes more sense now. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Annael
Half-elven


Jan 8, 4:08pm

Post #30 of 45 (210 views)
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well [In reply to] Can't Post

I struggled to get one author to use "racist attitude" instead of "negative and racist collective shadow projection" . . .

I am a dreamer of words, of written words. I think I am reading; a word stops me. I leave the page. The syllables of the words begin to move around Ö The words take on other meanings as if they had the right to be young.

-- Gaston Bachelard

* * * * * * * * * *

NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jan 8, 4:26pm

Post #31 of 45 (206 views)
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Not arguing with you, but [In reply to] Can't Post

don't you feel that academia pressures people to overload their jargon? And I remember you got a PhD yourself--did you feel the pressure then while working on it?

I bring up this point as someone who isn't an academic but has had them as customers for 20 years, and it has always seemed to me that they felt obliged to pile on the jargon and make their language obtuse or they wouldn't be taken seriously by their peers. I can't count the number of conversations where they would self-correct, first saying something in "regular speech," then catching themselves as if they'd made a faux pas and then repeating it a hailstorm of obfuscation. I guess in a way I always felt a little sorry for them, that they couldn't express things the way they wanted to but were forced by peer pressure to make things sound more abstract than they were.


Ethel Duath
Half-elven


Jan 8, 4:34pm

Post #32 of 45 (204 views)
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Ah! Sounds very visual, [In reply to] Can't Post

as if this writer were painting instead. The old adage about a picture being worth a thousand words. I can imagine you had an interesting set of conversations!



Ethel Duath
Half-elven


Jan 8, 4:36pm

Post #33 of 45 (206 views)
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Sounds like the method I used [In reply to] Can't Post

to answer essay questions when I didn't have much to say, or wasn't sure of the answer . . . Blush



CuriousG
Half-elven


Jan 8, 4:50pm

Post #34 of 45 (200 views)
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Well, there's that too. And what's more, it usually worked. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Ethel Duath
Half-elven


Jan 8, 4:55pm

Post #35 of 45 (200 views)
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Yeah, [In reply to] Can't Post

*whispers* (it did). Angelic



Annael
Half-elven


Jan 9, 3:17am

Post #36 of 45 (188 views)
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well, I was an editor first [In reply to] Can't Post

I knew that jargon basically accomplishes two things: 1. it provides a shorthand language that allows people within the field or company or whatever to communicate particular ideas quickly, and 2. it excludes those who aren't in the club. But I made my living for many years editing and writing patient education materials, where the point was to empower those who had previously been excluded. I was good at taking even the most complicated medical topics and explaining them in terms most people could understand - even kids.

So I made a point of writing all my papers, including my dissertation, in plain English.

My professors LOVED me. "Your prose is deceptively simple," one of them said. "I mean that the language seems simple, but your concepts are intricate."

And I tell all my clients that -- unless your professor is one of those twits who wants you to prove that you belong in the club by using inaccessible language -- he or she is probably going to love it if you write plainly too.

I wrote an article about why jargon is bad: https://www.linkedin.com/...rgon-jody-bower-phd/

I am a dreamer of words, of written words. I think I am reading; a word stops me. I leave the page. The syllables of the words begin to move around Ö The words take on other meanings as if they had the right to be young.

-- Gaston Bachelard

* * * * * * * * * *

NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967


Annael
Half-elven


Jan 9, 3:19am

Post #37 of 45 (180 views)
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ah, what I call the "dust in the eyes" approach? [In reply to] Can't Post

Throw a lot of terms at the page in the hopes that you sound like you actually know what you're talking about?

I am a dreamer of words, of written words. I think I am reading; a word stops me. I leave the page. The syllables of the words begin to move around Ö The words take on other meanings as if they had the right to be young.

-- Gaston Bachelard

* * * * * * * * * *

NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967


Annael
Half-elven


Jan 9, 3:21am

Post #38 of 45 (171 views)
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exactly // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

I am a dreamer of words, of written words. I think I am reading; a word stops me. I leave the page. The syllables of the words begin to move around Ö The words take on other meanings as if they had the right to be young.

-- Gaston Bachelard

* * * * * * * * * *

NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967


squire
Half-elven


Jan 9, 3:32am

Post #39 of 45 (182 views)
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Thanks for that [In reply to] Can't Post

Your comments reminded me of the frustration I felt when reading one particularly 'theoretical' article in the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia, a few years back. Here is the brief Diary-style review I wrote (I've left out the author's name, whose work I respect and can usually understand in other contexts):
"Subject Theory and Semiotics [in Tolkien], by X. Review by squire, 2007"

"I have too much respect for X's writing, which when I can follow it is extremely engaging, to call this article gibberish. The fact remains, on a second or third reading I still can't make head or tail of it. Something about how all elements of fiction must be understood as being from some subjective point of view, which incorporates influences that are both internal and external to that subject?? I dunno. This makes his "Silmarillion" article seem clear as day.

I can only guess that even X cannot write an essay about "subject theory and semiotics" without using the peculiar vocabulary and syntax of that discipline. I daresay that usages like "problematize", "pointing attention to", "highlights the subject's embeddedness in these discourses", "identity is seen as an aspect of", "constitutive aspects of the subject" would in more mainstream venues be red-penciled and returned to author for a rewrite. Here I have to assume they are part of a compressed technical vocabulary comparable to higher mathematics, or similar abstruse disciplines. Perhaps more self-explanatory expressions, if possible at all, would require three or ten times more words to make clear to laymen what adepts can quickly scan, nodding in easy comprehension.

Probably, too, X was constrained by the Encyclopedia's word count to keep this piece too short to allow any other approach than to reproduce subject theory in its own terms, rather than explain it to inexperienced readers in understandable language. Could anything have been done? What is he saying that subject theory tells us about Gollum? about the AinulindalŽ? Can I ask, in an educated layman's frustration, Who was the intended audience for this article?"




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Annael
Half-elven


Jan 9, 3:04pm

Post #40 of 45 (174 views)
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"compressed technical vocabulary" [In reply to] Can't Post

is an excellent description of what jargon is.

Any word that is a noun with "ize" added is a warning that here be jargon.

In my field, the post-structuralists (or post-phenomenologists), a/k/a the "French theory" school, are notorious for inaccessible writing. My friends and I took it as a challenge to quote Lacan or Derrida or Cixous and then say "in other words . . ." and boil the lengthy and incomprehensible quote down to plain English, just for fun y'know (and of course, to make it clear we had actually managed to read and understand them).

have you heard about this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokal_affair

I am a dreamer of words, of written words. I think I am reading; a word stops me. I leave the page. The syllables of the words begin to move around Ö The words take on other meanings as if they had the right to be young.

-- Gaston Bachelard

* * * * * * * * * *

NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967

(This post was edited by Annael on Jan 9, 3:11pm)


Ethel Duath
Half-elven


Jan 9, 3:27pm

Post #41 of 45 (166 views)
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Well, in a way. [In reply to] Can't Post

I would pad it with complicated, unnecessary phrases and redundant words--the "bigger" the better--overly describing any facts I did know (mostly high school. I cared too much in college to embarrass myself by pretending). I was going to try to provide an example, but I'm not sure I can do it anymore!



SirDennisC
Half-elven


Jan 10, 1:40am

Post #42 of 45 (164 views)
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Itís been noted around here - [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien had the entire Oxford dictionary at his command, but used relatively simple words, knitted finely.



(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Jan 10, 1:41am)


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Jan 10, 4:55am

Post #43 of 45 (146 views)
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Now that's an eye-opener and no mistake. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I struggled to get one author to use "racist attitude" instead of "negative and racist collective shadow projection" . . .


Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauronís master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Jan 10, 4:58am

Post #44 of 45 (151 views)
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Oh I love this. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Loquation scouting, so to speak.
Angelic


Heart

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauronís master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Jan 11, 11:40pm

Post #45 of 45 (116 views)
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"Sokal Squared." [In reply to] Can't Post

That's a nickname I've seen applied to a more recent prank whose creators intended to show that the "grievance studies" field is hopelessly flawed. There has been, however, a lot of controversy about whether the pranksters demonstrated what they think they did. Also, by submitting papers with bogus empirical evidence (which was not something Sokal did), one argument claims, the pranksters themselves committed fraud--and also that they violated ethics standards when they "conducted research on human subjects" (the editors of the journals to which the papers were submitted) without getting approval from a review board first.

(One comment I saw responding to an article on this: "Isnít it more like a concerned citizen trying to buy beer with a fake ID? Even if their goal is to expose the seller, itís still against the law.")


Treachery, treachery I fear; treachery of that miserable creature.

But so it must be. Let us remember that a traitor may betray himself and do good that he does not intend.


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