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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Guldur trolls were unnecessarry invention
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Victariongreyjoy
Lorien


Jan 3, 1:31am

Post #1 of 68 (10496 views)
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Guldur trolls were unnecessarry invention Can't Post

I like many of PJ ideas, but I found these behemoth fictional trolls to be very dumb idea. Why couldn't he just use existing cave trolls? I don't mind the humanoid troll creatures, because they look like folklore trolls. But the Guldur ones were so out of place if tou ask me.


Chen G.
Lorien

Jan 3, 5:11pm

Post #2 of 68 (10357 views)
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I read that he just wanted new designs [In reply to] Can't Post

Makes sense too. What are you doing as a filmmaker if in each film you repeat the same creature designs over and over?

By the way, which Trolls are you referring to, specifically? The armoured Trolls, stumpie or the humanoid Ogres?


(This post was edited by Chen G. on Jan 3, 5:14pm)


Eruonen
Valinor


Jan 3, 5:27pm

Post #3 of 68 (10349 views)
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The whole catapult off the back of a troll was ridiculous IMHO. [In reply to] Can't Post

It is the excesses that have ruined so much of these otherwise good films...not great....but there is a good story interwoven.

https://www.wired.com/...son-must-be-stopped/

"J.R.R. Tolkien once said that "believable fairy-stories must be intensely practical. You must have a map, no matter how rough." But in Peter Jackson’s new and final Hobbit film, The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies, which opened Wednesday, there is no map. There’s not even a plan. We veer far not just from Middle-earth, but from all plausibility."


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Jan 3, 5:31pm)


Chen G.
Lorien

Jan 3, 6:18pm

Post #4 of 68 (10340 views)
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Really, that's excess? [In reply to] Can't Post

Its just a siege weapon. The trolls are basically used consistently in all these films, as the beasts of burden of the Orcs. So it makes sense that they'd carry siege engines in much the same way as oxens and mules would in the real world history.

For what its worth, I though Trolls carrying catapults was a neat idea.You'd be amazed at some historical examples of convoluted siege engines. I believe the crusaders, attempting to reconquer Acre from the sea, made a huge siege tower and mounted on it on two conjoined ships, so...


(This post was edited by Chen G. on Jan 3, 6:19pm)


Victariongreyjoy
Lorien


Jan 3, 7:10pm

Post #5 of 68 (10324 views)
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Armoured Trolls and Stumpie. [In reply to] Can't Post

The armoured trolls were Olog-hai right? I thought those didn't came into existence until War of the Ring. Stumpie looked like a creature from Silent Hill, so I didn't like it either. Jackson could have just used cave trolls to drag siege weapons.


Eruonen
Valinor


Jan 3, 7:10pm

Post #6 of 68 (10326 views)
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Yes, I do, among so many other examples. [In reply to] Can't Post

Oxens and mules pulled loads. I don't recall oxen and mule seige weapons strapped to them in any war. Think of the physics involved. I guess the trolls like a good face plant after every firing.

Not even war elephants - "Elephants were further enhanced with their own weaponry and armour. In India and Sri Lanka, heavy iron chains with steel balls at the end were tied to the trunks of war elephants, which the animals were trained to swirl menacingly and with great skill. Numerous cultures designed elephant armour, aiming to protect the body and legs of the animal while leaving his trunk free to attack the enemy. Tusk swords were sometimes employed. Larger animals could also carry a protective tower on their backs, called a howdah."


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Jan 3, 7:12pm)


Chen G.
Lorien

Jan 3, 7:12pm

Post #7 of 68 (10321 views)
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Ah, stumpie [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Stumpie looked like a creature from Silent Hill, so I didn't like it either.


Stumpie's certainly out there.

Personally, I like it.


Victariongreyjoy
Lorien


Jan 3, 7:20pm

Post #8 of 68 (10318 views)
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Mumakil [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe many won't agree with this, but if Jackson used the Mumakils to drag the siege weapons, I wouldn't mind. Azog could have hired a batallion of Haradrims and Easterlings to fight for him. Non-canon, but it would have done justice for the Easterlings, and a nod to the siege of Erebor.


Noria
Gondor

Jan 3, 8:14pm

Post #9 of 68 (10298 views)
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Different designs [In reply to] Can't Post

As Chen said, Jackson wanted new designs for many of the peoples and creatures of TH, including trolls, orcs and even the Dwarves.

I got a kick out of the way they used the trolls and ogres in TH, though I didn't enjoy Stumpy.

I wondered why those catapults didn't break the trolls' backs until I considered the semi-magical qualities of hill trolls that turned them into stone when they were exposed to daylight. Maybe the Five Armies trolls had semi-magical qualities too, like backbones of steel.

As for the Mumakils, it seems to me unlikely that Orcs would hire humans in any capacity and having Southrons and their mumakils suddenly appear in TH would not have worked for me at all.

IMO, one of the defining characteristics of PJ as a filmmaker is the way in which he veers from subtlety and quiet emotion to over-the-top excess and back again. I learned with FotR that you don't get one without the other.


Eruonen
Valinor


Jan 3, 8:53pm

Post #10 of 68 (10294 views)
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Yes [In reply to] Can't Post

"IMO, one of the defining characteristics of PJ as a filmmaker is the way in which he veers from subtlety and quiet emotion to over-the-top excess and back again. I learned with FotR that you don't get one without the other. "

Unfortunately, nobody around him is will to say, "Hmm...not a good idea."


Chen G.
Lorien

Jan 3, 9:06pm

Post #11 of 68 (10290 views)
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Nonsense [In reply to] Can't Post

I cordially dislike this narrative. Its as if Jackson's artistic voice was always the problem, and his supposed inability to fully exercise it benefitted the films - which is another way to say that The Lord of the Ring was what it was despite of Peter Jackson, which is nonsense.

Its essentially a narrative which was imported from accusations drawn against George Lucas, but - when copied full-cloth to this series based on all-but superficial similarities - is completely out of place.

The fact of the matter is that every big-name director is the final word on any of his films. Do you think someone overrules Spielberg, Cameron or Nolan on their productions?

What matter isn't whether the director has the final say or not, but rather whether or not the director is the kind of person who's beyond reproach or not: which Peter Jackson isn't. He always stresses that he wants people to "come up with better ideas" than himself.

There are multiple examples when he brought up an idea, and was talked out of it by his collaborators. I think at some point he toyed with the idea of a tipsy Gandalf, until Ian McKellen talked him out of it. His cameo on The Desolation of Smaug was veto-ed by Philippa Boyens; his editor Jabez Olssen advised him to remove a line of Gollum that mentions the name Smeagol in An Unexpected Journey, etcetra.

Hell, that's why he lets actors have input on the script throughout the shoot. Because he's collaborative - not because he likes to doggedly cling to his own notions and ideas.

It wasn't any different on The Lord of the Rings, either. Technically, Jackson always had the final say, because he always had final cut rights. He overruled New Line's requests with regards to the length of the prologue, the narrator, etcetra. But he was also constantly open for input from all collaborators.

Its the kind of narrative that makes for a nice story: a up-and-rising director makes a masterpice, only for his success and hubris to bring him down. Too bad it just doesn't apply here.


(This post was edited by Chen G. on Jan 3, 9:15pm)


Paulo Gabriel
Bree

Jan 3, 9:14pm

Post #12 of 68 (10278 views)
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Plausibility? [In reply to] Can't Post

I had a good laugh now! Seriously, do you think the LOTR movies had ANY plausibility to them? Do you seriously believe that?


Eruonen
Valinor


Jan 3, 10:14pm

Post #13 of 68 (10271 views)
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The LOTR was successful because PJ did not stray as far from [In reply to] Can't Post

plausibility in the world of ME as he did in The Hobbit films. Over rules? How about listening to trusted advisors who say, Peter, sorry, that looks like a terrible idea. Even the studio could have but they are part of the problem wanting MORE.

Now, if they all thought the excesses were just terrific, then that says the whole team botched it.


Eruonen
Valinor


Jan 3, 10:19pm

Post #14 of 68 (10263 views)
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Well, there is room for designing new look trolls [In reply to] Can't Post

 Kinds of Trolls:
Cave-trolls
Hill-trolls
Mountain-trolls
Olog-hai
Snow-trolls
Stone-trolls
Half-trolls
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Trolls

Hill Trolls - "n appearance they were man-like, but larger, and seem to have been covered with hard scales. They were fearsome and vicious, bellowing like beasts as they stormed into battle, and beating their enemies down with great hammers.[2]"


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Jan 3, 10:21pm)


2ndBreffest
Rivendell


Jan 4, 12:22am

Post #15 of 68 (10243 views)
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i agree [In reply to] Can't Post

They looked ridiculous. But, in light of everything else, they made perfect sense and just blended in with the rest of it.


skyofcoffeebeans
Rivendell

Jan 4, 12:23am

Post #16 of 68 (10240 views)
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I do remember thinking... [In reply to] Can't Post

...after the were-worms, why not?


Paulo Gabriel
Bree

Jan 4, 6:01am

Post #17 of 68 (10212 views)
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So... [In reply to] Can't Post

At least it made sense in-universe, didn't it? That's a good thing. Wink


2ndBreffest
Rivendell


Jan 4, 11:16am

Post #18 of 68 (10184 views)
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well... [In reply to] Can't Post

by that point in the movies, an appearance by Spider-Man would have made sense.


Paulo Gabriel
Bree

Jan 4, 12:16pm

Post #19 of 68 (10168 views)
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I don't think so.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Victariongreyjoy
Lorien


Jan 4, 12:26pm

Post #20 of 68 (10173 views)
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Good changes imo [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
As for the Mumakils, it seems to me unlikely that Orcs would hire humans in any capacity and having Southrons and their mumakils suddenly appear in TH would not have worked for me at all.


Jackson already made some bad changes, like the Dwarf golden statute, that I think including Mumakil, Haradrim and Easterlings would be welcomed by the majority of fans.


2ndBreffest
Rivendell


Jan 4, 12:32pm

Post #21 of 68 (10159 views)
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yes [In reply to] Can't Post

...this article really sums it all up nicely.


Paulo Gabriel
Bree

Jan 4, 12:32pm

Post #22 of 68 (10167 views)
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The dwarf golden statue.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Was Alan Lee's idea, not Jackson's.


Victariongreyjoy
Lorien


Jan 4, 12:36pm

Post #23 of 68 (10161 views)
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Are u sure? [In reply to] Can't Post

Any source for this?


2ndBreffest
Rivendell


Jan 4, 12:37pm

Post #24 of 68 (10156 views)
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well [In reply to] Can't Post

shame on Alan Lee then...as a big fan of his, I really would have expected better. It must have been all that time working with PJ has started to rub off on him.


(This post was edited by 2ndBreffest on Jan 4, 12:39pm)


Victariongreyjoy
Lorien


Jan 4, 12:42pm

Post #25 of 68 (10158 views)
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Gold statue. [In reply to] Can't Post

Regardless if it was his or Jackson's idea, it was still a bad idea. But back to the subject: Cave trolls or having a few haradrim riding Mumakils for the siege weapons, wouldn't be bad changes imo. These are already established creatures from LOTR, so audience won't have any problems with them.

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