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Durin's Bane Balrog as a dark lord

Victariongreyjoy
Lorien


Jan 3, 12:16am

Post #1 of 7 (466 views)
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Durin's Bane Balrog as a dark lord Can't Post

Since the Durin's Bane Balrog is a Maia like Sauron, could he get the orcs of Moria and even Goblintown, to serve him as a new dark lord? And if he managed to do that and have the goblin king serve as his second in command, could he build Khazad-Dum as his new stronghold and even challenge Sauron as a new Dark Lord? Goblin Town becomes his ''Minas Morgul''?


(This post was edited by Victariongreyjoy on Jan 3, 12:17am)


squire
Half-elven


Jan 3, 1:22am

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Maybe we start by being clearer on what "could" means in this kind of question [In reply to] Can't Post

You 'could' write such a story, and there's no way for anyone to stop you by saying 'that couldn't happen'. At best, they might assert that 'that couldn't happen in Tolkien's Middle-earth', arguing sensibly that this kind of speculation is completely outside the terms of world-creation that Tolkien laid out.

Thus: In his story, the balrog fled the First Age wreck of Thangorodrim to lurk in the bottom-most deeps of the Misty Mountains. In some sense he 'slept' - perhaps a form of hibernation or suspended animation - because the Dwarves are said to have 'awoken' him after they had coexisted under the same mountains for thousands of years. And once he, with or without the aid of the orcs, the watcher, etc. had destroyed the Dwarf-kingdom, he returned to some kind of passive state of watchfulness or oblivion, only aroused again when Thror and later Balin unwisely attempted the restoration of Moria, and when the Fellowship passed through.

In other words, there is zero sign of a Will to Power in the Balrog, as he is presented to us. He doesn't seem to want anyone to 'serve' him, because if he had, he would have made such a move almost a thousand years earlier, if not many thousands of years before that.

But if, as I said, you are asking whether a story 'could' be written whereby this balrog challenges Sauron for the mastery of the evil forces of Middle-earth, the answer is surely yes. You would just be diverging from what little circumstantial evidence Tolkien provides that he never even contemplated such a contingency.

(The fact that he is a Maia is not very meaningful. Every spiritual being in Middle-earth is a Maia, who is not one of the Valar.)



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CuriousG
Half-elven


Jan 3, 11:57am

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It seems to me the Moria orcs already serve him to some degree [In reply to] Can't Post

And they serve him out of fear, as they serve Sauron. But he doesn't seem the realm-building type. Balrogs seem more like order-takers than leaders. If Sauron or a Nazgul had inhabited Moria, they would have built a realm like Dol Guldur to menace Lorien (and strategically, they should have, encircling it and cutting it off from the west). But that Balrog just sat for centuries in Moria doing nothing besides playing backgammon, it seems. He didn't even dare go outside when the orcs and dwarves were fighting their last great battle where he could have turned the tide. Instead he sat inside and menaced Dain when he crossed the threshold.


Chen G.
Lorien

Jan 3, 2:52pm

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I don't know [In reply to] Can't Post

The relationship between the Moria Orcs, Sauron and Durin's Bane isn't perfectly clear.

It seems that some of the Moria Orcs were, at the time of the Fellowship's arrival, "indigenous" to the mines. It crops up in The Two Towers, where a party of Moria Orcs seem to work for their own agenda, rather than Sauron's or Saruman's. In fact, that very agenda was pointed out by Gimli in The Fellowship of the Rings: the Orcs' insatiable need for revenge.

However, the Tale of Years does reveal that Sauron put his own servants in Moria, and of course we're told they trade Mithril with him. In fact, the description in the Book of Mazarbul states that the colony was overrun not by the Orcs already in the mines, but by a new wave of Orcs coming, presumably, from Mordor. Indeed, the same Black Uruk described by Aragorn later.

So, at least some of the Moria Orcs were from Mordor and served Sauron. Whether the rest of them served the Balrog (who seem to have resided below their dwellings) or simply feared his appearance is unclear.


InTheChair
Lorien

Jan 3, 10:53pm

Post #5 of 7 (390 views)
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Seems to have been more of a stay at home guy. [In reply to] Can't Post

The War of Wrath appears to have put such fear in him that he remained hidden, or maybe buried for thousands of years. Maybe that's just nap for a Balrog? Can't say. Sauron also tends to take his time after a defeat before he gets back into the game again.

After he was released, or maybe dug up by the Dwarves, he appears to be feared by the Orcs in Moria, and that would probably be enough to make some of them serve him.

Had he gotten hold of the ring anything might have happened, though I would speculate that he otherwise would not have made as powerful a potential threat to Sauron as someone like Smaug might have done, though Smaug also seemed disinclined to conquer the world.


Plurmo
Rohan

Jan 4, 7:43pm

Post #6 of 7 (353 views)
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Perhaps [In reply to] Can't Post

The Balrog, as a servant of Morgoth, is doing his will, waiting for his return, being part of a tale of which Sauron's reign is only a marginal note.

For the sake of argument, consider Bombadil. He protects the spring of the Withywindle, the craddle of Faery, and wants no part in Sauron's tale.

Now, arguably, the Misty Mountains, reared by Morgoth, still bear his presence to the Third Age, being his own Withywindle.

The Balrog, the stone giants, the ancient creatures of the depths, the willful Caradhras, these wild entities are of morgothian stature, like dragons, or Shelob, outside Sauron's control.

And maybe Morgoth wants it to be that way and placed the Balrog in Moria to jealously protect something he wants to keep for himself.

For the sake of speculation, consider the Ring, made by Sauron from morgothian infused gold. Now suppose there is a vein of morgothian infused mithril under Moria.

Nenya, the pure-from-Morgoth mithril forged ring controls natural forces, so, perhaps, a ring of morgothian mithril could be made also, for a greater control of Morgoth's Ring (Arda Marred.)

While the Balrog dreams of mithril sheep, Morgoth bids his time, but then Gandalf the busybody meddles in Morgoth's affairs (and is killed, as expected,) and the Balrog is finished. From there on, it was best for Morgoth that Sauron was also destroyed, so Gandalf got a new body and lost an old enemy, at least for a while.

Anyway, I prefer this line of speculation. Never to forget that there is always Morgoth in the background, and that his disturbance of the Music goes on.


Victariongreyjoy
Lorien


Jan 4, 8:08pm

Post #7 of 7 (350 views)
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Durin's Bane fits as a dark lord. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
And they serve him out of fear, as they serve Sauron. But he doesn't seem the realm-building type. Balrogs seem more like order-takers than leaders. If Sauron or a Nazgul had inhabited Moria, they would have built a realm like Dol Guldur to menace Lorien (and strategically, they should have, encircling it and cutting it off from the west). But that Balrog just sat for centuries in Moria doing nothing besides playing backgammon, it seems. He didn't even dare go outside when the orcs and dwarves were fighting their last great battle where he could have turned the tide. Instead he sat inside and menaced Dain when he crossed the threshold.


You're right, he's more a ''take order'' being than for example, The Witch-King. But wouldn't it be cool if the goblins were to serve him as a god? Moria would probably be one of the darkest place in Middle-Earth, and I personally think Durin's Bane would make Khazad-Dum similar to Angband, just to honor Morgoth. Maybe he could get all the goblins and orcs, from Gundabad to Goblintown to come to Khazad-Dum and rebuild it to a fortress. This is just my fan-fiction thought, but I would call him Gorgath Laugh

 
 

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