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Warships, elves and other musings
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Cirashala
Tol Eressea


Dec 30 2018, 12:24am

Post #1 of 63 (969 views)
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Warships, elves and other musings Can't Post

Hello all! I've got a fair number of questions (stemming from both reading all the old threads and sheer boredom as I rest and try to recuperate quickly from a cold before my surgery Jan 17th) and will be posting them here to keep them condensed into one thread Smile

1. Corsair ships/black ships. In the book, they are described as having slaves rowing them up the Anduin when Aragorn, Gimli, Legolas and the Grey Company (and the armies of the Dead) commandeer them, but also with great sails. Does this imply that slave rowers were only used to row upstream and/or against currents, and that sails were used otherwise? Perhaps sails were more prominently used at sea, save for windless days, and oars were only pulled out when needed?
2. Do elves feel the same amount of physical pain as other races do when injured? I know they can survive wounds which would be mortal to men (though can be slain, which implies to me that if it doesn't kill them immediately, they can survive it, whereas with Men and other races they'd die of infection or sepsis), but it does make me wonder if they feel pain as acutely as others.

3. We know elves can walk on snow and not leave footprints behind while running in grass. Do you think it's possible for them to walk on top of, say, sand? We know they can't walk on water because Amroth drowns and the elves must cross the rope bridge in Lothlorien. But it does make me wonder if elves get their feet bogged down in mud and marshes and thus would also have difficulty traversing them.

4. We know some about how elves sleep. I think it's unique that sleeping with their eyes open is mentioned. It honestly reminds me of how they had Gandalf sleeping in TTT in the films- sleeping but with his eyes open, however unfocused. He certainly didn't see Pippin swap out the Palantir. So it makes me wonder- do elves sleep/daydream type sleep when awake, like Legolas does while running, but ALSO sleep more akin to men, only with their eyes open (as he does under the eaves of Fangorn) once their bodies have need of rest too?

5. Hearkening to the above question- how long can an elf go without bodily rest? Legolas made it through 3.5 days and 135 miles before he slept "properly" (as in rested both body and mind). I'd be curious to know how long they could go without having done four marathons in a row.

6. Did the tree in Fangorn like the fire's warmth and wasn't hostile because Gimli only used downed wood? Would the trees view downed wood the same was as one would view hair trimmings or fingernail clippings? Once a part of them but once separated not an issue?

7. On the (unfortunate) topic of slaves, we know there were at least slaves chained to oars on the Corsair ships (Aragorn set them free), and possibly slaves in Nurn laboring for Sauron and his armies. Where else would we likely see slaves in ME, and where do you think they would come from? Gondor is on the border with Harad (more specifically, Ithilien area is), so presumably some slaves are gotten from Gondor or Gondorian ships. However, if horses could be stolen from Rohan, one presumes that slaves could be taken from there as well, if they had a good and quick way to transport them (my mind thinks perhaps they would be taken over the Isen and down to the coast where the ships could receive them? Head canon thinks it's possible perhaps).

8. We know meat is consumed by all the races of ME. Where are herds of cattle and whatnot raised? Did Rohan perchance have herds of cattle as well as horses? It would certainly be a good landscape for it.

9. Elves are often portrayed/described as being one with nature. Do you think elves can take a plucked flower and replant it and help it take root again? I think of the richness of Ithilien after Legolas and his band of elves from Mirkwood take charge of restoring it under King Elessar.

10. Speaking of the king, did he ever go by Aragorn after he was crowned, or did he have a "permanent name change" at that point to Elessar?

11. Thinking on Aegnor and Andreth, which is a heartbreaking tale (literally). Do you suppose that, had Aegnor wedded Andreth, rather than turning her down despite the pain it caused him to do so, would he have had to give up his immortality in the union? Or is this a choice unique to THE Peredhil- those of the line of Luthien and Beren and Idril and Tuor? And what of their child- as a peredhil, though not of the aforementioned lines, would they have had a choice in their fate as well?

12. Also on Aegnor and Andreth- nowhere does Tolkien mention that the "women higher status" elf-human pairings had a thought or issue of their mortal husband growing older (merely their inevitable death, and yet they went for it anyway). And yet, Finrod tells Andreth that Aegnor would grow to pity her as the years fell on her, and she could scarce stand being pitied then. Is this a rather misogynistic attitude that women are only valued for their looks and that when said looks fade, somehow it's reason for pity that they don't retain the youthfulness of their youth? You don't see the elf women pitying their mortal husbands' wrinkles and gray hair. And yet, Finrod seems to think that Aegnor would pity the fading looks of his mortal wife. I find that (and the whole tale, really) to be very sad, and a sad state of mind that women somehow "lose their value" when their looks fade to age.

I need to batten down the chickens (very windy, and need to make sure they're all in the coop. There's been a couple times where they bumped the door and some got stuck outside), but I will add more questions on as they come up Smile

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squire
Half-elven


Dec 30 2018, 1:53am

Post #2 of 63 (844 views)
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Fun and challenging questions and thoughts! [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Yes, you've got the basic galley vibe: Oars when needed in calms, to go against the wind, or in narrow straits or harbors. Sails whenever the wind is right. (Note that the Army of the Dead never 'commandeers' the ships - they simply terrify the Corsairs into abandoning ship.)

2. I don't see why Elves wouldn't feel pain in the same way we do. On the other hand, one can certainly imagine them tolerating pain more readily or willfully than mortals could.

3. I wouldn't push this too far. The point is they are in touch with nature, and their feet and the natural surfaces are in agreement or some such, so that no damage is done as they walk, etc. It doesn't mean they weigh less than mortals, or anything like that. Since as you say water is fundamentally different from grass and snow, we can certainly imagine there is a point of wateriness to muds where Elves would start to bog down, leave footprints, curse like sailors, etc.

4. I don't know. I'm not sure it's a solid point so much as kind of "local color" inserted by Tolkien at a whim. I don't think there's anything in The Silmarillion about how Elves sleep - because LotR is so much more fully developed in the matter of mortals and immortals getting comparisons.

5. I doubt there's any answer to this question. It approaches the 'vast game' region, whereby rules apply, and Tolkien was well aware of the dangers of that trap.

6. Consistency being the hobgoblin of petty minds, I can't expect consistency in this matter. It's never even made sense to me that a tree would welcome the warmth of a campfire, and of course the text never explicitly says that's what was going on - it's all in the perceptions of the witnesses, who do like warm campfires. You're right to remember that Aragorn warned Gimli against cutting any wood, for fear of offending the forest's guardian spirits or whatever, but I'm not sure it follows that the tree was actually processing the burning of wood that wasn't directly cut from it!

7. We'll never know. As far as I'm concerned, it's entirely possible that both Gondor and Rohan had slavery and it's never mentioned because 1) the cultures took it for granted and it had nothing to do with the War, and 2) Tolkien knew it was politically incorrect by the mid-20th C. But the cultures they're modeled on, north European and Mediterranean empires, certainly had slaves and who gave a darn.

8. Rohan has cattle, and so does Gondor, if the repeated use of the terms "herds" and "herdsmen" have their usual meaning. It's true that horses live in herds, but the term is most usually applied to cattle or sheep - which horses are useful in herding. In other words, if Rohan raised nothing but horses, there would be no economic purpose for doing so; whereas if Rohan raised cattle, then keeping and breeding horses for both warfare and cattle-tending makes tons of sense.

Likewise, the same terms are used to describe the livelihoods of some of the people of the Pellenor and of the outlands of Gondor. But they are not, like the Rohirrim, esteemed as horsemen and so it's even easier to conclude that they, naturally, graze cattle and sheep for meat and other products.

9. Elves know gardening like no one else in Middle-earth, to be sure. But that doesn't mean they transplant plucked flowers, if by plucked you mean broken in the stem rather than uprooted.

10. He seems to have adopted Elessar Tel-contar ("Strider") as his extended title. I don't know that Aragorn wouldn't be included as well, depending on the occasion. Kings usually have a ton of names, to be used in different circumstances as called for. For example: King George VI of England had the given name Albert, and was known as Bert or Bertie by those in his intimate circle. He took the official, or reigning, name George in honor of his father and to re-establish the credibility of the monarchy after the fiasco of his older brother's abdication.

11. There's no way to tell. The story was never incorporated into the published works, and it's probably just as well.

12. Yup. You got Tolkien, to a T. A woman's declining looks count for a LOT more than a man's dignifying looks, as old age creeps up. Think of all the women who are basically described as the most beautiful ever to have lived. Does this mean Tolkien was misogynistic, though? That's trickier, and would rate an entirely new discussion.



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(This post was edited by squire on Dec 30 2018, 2:02am)


Cirashala
Tol Eressea


Dec 30 2018, 2:18am

Post #3 of 63 (836 views)
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Great thoughts! :) [In reply to] Can't Post

1. I know Smile

2. I would think they have a higher pain tolerance as well. I figured getting stuck by an arrow or cut by a blade would still hurt quite a bit though- maybe not to screaming in agony level but would certainly warrant a loud cry and pain when dealing with the wound. I figure it would be more "hiss in pain" than "screaming in pain", kinda like at the doctor's office when you point to the smiley face chart. Our human 8 would probably be an elvish 5 or so kind of thing.

3. Curse like sailors! Laugh Yeah, in a bog I bet most sentient beings would! My pastor told a great story one Sunday. He went to a friend's house, and said friend lived on a farm, and said friend sold compost from their animals to gardeners. He was to fill up a trailer, and the first step he lost one boot. The second step the second one got stuck. He tried to reach around for the first one, and fell headlong into the compost pile! His mom picked him up and told him to strip down butt naked in the carport (teenager) and literally hosed him down before he could set foot into the house! There were words that went through his head that should definitely not be said out loud lol!

4. So in a nutshell, what you're saying is that the gist of it is that elvish sleep is somewhat different than human, but still necessary for the elf at some point? My husband must be a hairy elf then (he actually resembles Kili, but with a slightly fuller beard and buzzed short hair- it's really uncanny. He could easily pass for a sibling), because he's fallen asleep with his eyes open at sleepovers as a kid and freaked his friends out Laugh

5. Fair enough Smile Aside from Legolas' tolerance in the hunt, I was just curious if there were any other mentions of elvish tolerance/exhaustion in the written material.

6. True. I can't recall- who said the tree was glad of its warmth? If it was Legolas, then I suppose an elf would have better insight into such a thing.

7. That's completely fair. I still think one could make a case for slavery to not be in Gondor at least, as Aragorn freed all the slaves on the ships. I can't quite decide if Tolkien wanted slavery to be specific to the "bad guys" or not. I liken any sort of slavery that might be among the free peoples to more of an indentured servant type deal, if it existed in those specific cultures.

8. Yeah that's what I thought too. Made sense to me Wink

9. I suppose this question was more of how much power do the elves have over nature. Legolas tames his horse very quickly, for example. I wonder if perhaps an elven ring could do that, but just an elf alone cannot?

10. That totally makes sense. It does make me wonder- do those who knew him before as Aragorn (like the Fellowship) still call him Aragorn, save for very formal occasions? I would think it would be hard for them to suddenly switch names when they're so used to Aragorn.

11. It's too bad. It's a beautiful, if tragic, tale and gives great insight into the reverse idea- elf man and mortal woman- as well as discussing the different viewpoints of elves and men regarding the world. Surely part of the reason for the Aegnor/Andreth (forget what it's called proper) was to show a contrast to all the elf woman/mortal men pairings?

12. I don't think Tolkien was a misogynist so much as he was showing historical cultural conventions of a woman being only so good as her beauty and ability to bear sons. It is a sad fate indeed, and I don't think we're as far removed from such ideas as we think. I see it all the time in media, all those "anti-aging" products, makeup, etc (for full disclosure I do wear makeup- namely just foundation and concealer if I break out, which thankfully isn't often (and thus, I'm not made up most of the time), but I'm talking the "I can't leave the house without makeup" issue).

But poor Andreth! I do pity her- I pity that her beloved could not seem to get past the fact that she would age, and he would pity her as a result of that. Though it does make me wonder if he was simply just afraid of his beloved dying and having to spend eternity sundered from her, and Finrod wisely refrained from outing his brother's fear for fear that Andreth would rebut that statement.


My writing and novels:

My Hobbit Fanfiction

My historical novel print and kindle version

My historical novels ebook version compatible with all ereaders

You can also find my novel at most major book retailers online (and for those outside the US who prefer a print book, you can find the print version at Book Depository). Search "Amazing Grace Amanda Longpre'" to find it.

Happy reading everyone!


squire
Half-elven


Dec 30 2018, 2:39am

Post #4 of 63 (844 views)
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Tolkien did address the downside of male aging [In reply to] Can't Post

Regarding your #12, I remember that Aragorn did not want to be pitied in old age, at least in this sense:

"Take counsel with yourself, beloved, and ask whether you would indeed have me wait until I wither and fall from my high seat unmanned and witless." LR Appendix A.I.v, "Tale of Aragorn and Arwen".

In short, if women lose their looks in old age, to be pitied by the immortals, then men lose their wits to senility - again, presumably to be pitied by the immortals.

We might also remember that Arwen has, presumably, become mortal in her marriage to Aragorn, and no one - not Aragorn, Elrond, or whoever - expresses dismay that her looks will deteriorate as she ages, as they need not have had she chosen to stay with her kin.

I don't find the Andreth tale very much fun on this front either - really? you can't love your wife as she loses her physique and/or her faculties - but I suspect we need to see what Tolkien was really driving at: that immortals and mortals are really quite incompatible on the issue of aging and death. You think you're a nice guy, loving and understanding, and then suddenly the woman has grey hair and wrinkles.

"Hey! No woman I've ever known has that stuff, and they're typically, what, ten or twenty thousand years old? Like me, right? I'm sorry this is just some kind of sick stuff. Aging blows. Honey, I love ya, but you look like you need to be buried yesterday. Sorry to be honest, but Elves can't lie. Can I get you a blanket, or some embalming fluid? Oh, sorry, that was cruel, wasn't it. I'm gonna need some time to wrap my head around this aging thing. It's just ... so ... disgusting."



squire online:
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Hamfast Gamgee
Grey Havens

Dec 30 2018, 10:35am

Post #5 of 63 (806 views)
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One point about warships [In reply to] Can't Post

Numereon ones anyway! I have sometimes wondered how their makeup actually was at the end of the second age when the Numenerons where at the height of their power. Some people imagine them as Roman, Greek or at least middle-ages ships but I wonder if they could have been more powerful. A bit like ships of the line in the time of Nelson, perhaps?


noWizardme
Valinor


Dec 30 2018, 12:58pm

Post #6 of 63 (796 views)
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Beauty - a lot going on [In reply to] Can't Post

My own understanding for Tolkien's use of beauty is that I think he's doing several things:

I carry over from my ideas about medieval Euripe the supposition that feminine beauty is admired in Middle-earth as a proxy for youth and health, and therfore a likely indicator of fertility. As has already been mentioned, a number of forces in medieval Europe pushed women into bearing children often and early, and women who were likely to be able to do so were prized potential mates, I think. (That's a bit of a reductionist, scietist way of seeing why certain cultural things come to be, and doubtless it's too limted to give thsi full justice).

I also assume that having a beautiful partner on your arm is a conferrer of status in Middle-earth as it is and has been in many times and places in the real world. I think this leads us to a fantasy convention where the conventionally manly protagonist will have (or 'get') a beautiful female partner. Tolkien does this sometimes, but also subverts it - in my own reading of LOTR I feel that Faramir reprsents a happy outcome for Eowyn as much or more than the other way round, and I don't see a love interest chraracter for either Baggins. Nor (I would argue) are the Bagginses cliched manly protagonists, excellent heroes thougheach is in his own way.

I also think I see Tolkien sometimes using the fantasy trope that physical beauty is cognate with goodness. Again, I don't think he does this consistently Butterbur or Maggot, are laudable in their own ways, but are not presented as physically beautiful.

Physical beauty in LOTR conforms to norms for Northern Europe - either because it follows Tolkien's own tastes or (to a great part, I think) it keeps faith with his Northen European source material. For example, someone who is tall and has with pale skin is admired. It is usually not good to be 'swarthy'. I think I detect a run of dark-haired, grey eyed beautoes (is that you, Edith?)

Bu there's more. I think mortals percieve elves as beautiful, and I think that's at least partly (and possibly mostly or entirely) in a chaste way. I'm thinking, for example, of the hobbits' reaction to Gildor &Co. or Frodo's reaction (Frodo in particular) to Goldberry and then Arwen. Maybe one could add Gimli's reaction to Galadriel - though I see that as containing elements of a running gag about courtly love. Or, maybe, Eomer's reaction to Arwen: he is strongly affected by seeing her, but I don't think she needs to worry about possible amorous advances from him.

Male characters (the bulk of the LOTR cast, of course) admire male beauty - or at least a beautiful male presence, if not just physical appearance. Sam loves Frodo, and I read this as (partly at least) an appreciation of Frodo's goodness, even holiness. Eomer is smitten by his first meeting with Aragorn: mostly a reaction to charisma, I think. Eomer's reaction, I also think, parallels some of Eowyn's. It would be a push, I think, to argue that Eowyn's rection to Aragorn is not romantic in any sense (that she would be fully satisfied by a position as a respected warrior in his war band) but I think there is a big element to this. I see Eowyn as desperately craving adventure and respect. My own reading is that she does also imagine herself Aragorn's Queen. And of course that brings us back to Middle-earth as a society based on Dark Ages/medieval Europe, where a Princess might hope to love her Prince romantically, but would be expected to understand that an arranged marriage and childbearing was her expected contribution to her clan's political and dynsastic efforts.

What further complicates this, I expect, is that if you were to ask 'can an appreciation of beauty in another human every be seperated from feelings of romance or sex' you'd get different answers from different people. I supose we each bring those assumptions to our reading of Tolkien, then discuss what we've read and find out that - surprise! - other peple see things differently. So, for example, I expect there would be a number of opinions about how much homoeroticism people have red into the male admiration of males (I think females are too few and too marginal for us to have instances of them admiring each other?)

~~~~~~
"Go down to the shovel store and take your pick." Traditional prank played on dwarves when they start down the mine.


(This post was edited by noWizardme on Dec 30 2018, 12:59pm)


Chen G.
Lorien

Dec 30 2018, 1:48pm

Post #7 of 63 (783 views)
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It runs deeper [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I suspect we need to see what Tolkien was really driving at: that immortals and mortals are really quite incompatible on the issue of aging and death. You think you're a nice guy, loving and understanding, and then suddenly the woman has grey hair and wrinkles.


There's more to it than that. Once Tolkien went down the line of having Elves surrender their immortality to pledge themselves to mortals, he had hit upon a very grim notion: Men, presumably, reunite in death. Elves reunite in Mandos or once they return to the lands of the living.

Therefore, death parts Men and Elves - whether they're bound by friendship or love - for all of eternity. That's a very sobering thought. When Arwen parts with Elrond, he is leaving knowing he is going to live forever, and never ever see his daughter again.


squire
Half-elven


Dec 30 2018, 1:54pm

Post #8 of 63 (786 views)
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A very good question [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think Tolkien ever developed his ideas about just how advanced Numenor was. He dithered, for the obvious reasons that science is hard to forget in real life, no matter what we might say about the "Dark Ages". At one point in the 1930s, I believe Numenor was flying airplanes and shooting artillery shells. However, there's none of that in the later, post-LotR versions, as it would be hard to explain why exactly Gondor and Arnor didn't have the same level of technology, for both war and peace.

All that said, it's certainly clear that Numenor's ships sailed around the world as it existed at the time. That kind of voyage is unsupportable using Mediterranean-style galleys or dhows. I think we could definitely imagine Numenor developing advanced ship-building techniques in line with the Renaissance expansion of real-world Europe - but without the sheer battle-power of massed cannon that followed, as you say, down to the time of Nelson.



squire online:
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Meneldor
Valinor


Dec 30 2018, 8:09pm

Post #9 of 63 (751 views)
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In my headcanon, Numenor's ships [In reply to] Can't Post

were similar to those of the "Age of Exploration." Caravels were seaworthy enough to cross oceans, and galleons could do so with reasonable safety and the ability to carry worthwhile amounts of cargo and passengers.

I've often wondered about the white ships of the Teleri, like the ones that Feanor burned. (That was the moment I lost my last shred of sympathy for him, the Philistine!) I imagine most of them were rigged fore-and-aft (sails like wings) making them easier to sail into the wind than square-riggers, and probably made with that subtle innate elven magic to keep them afloat. Didn't Galadriel say something like that about the 3 boats she gave the fellowship?


They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107


Cirashala
Tol Eressea


Dec 31 2018, 12:23am

Post #10 of 63 (715 views)
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Good point- I forgot about that [In reply to] Can't Post

I forgot that Aragorn was worried he'd be senile and withered at the end. At least he had the ability to choose when he died. Was that choice due to being of Numenor, or of Elros' line- sort of a trait of the "mortal" side of the half-elven?

Also, an important distinction- was ARWEN worried about his wits/looks (being the formally immortal partner) or was it Aragorn himself? Because in the case of Aegnor and Andreth, it implies that Aegnor was worried about Andreth's aging (regarding the pity). I know Andreth would have withdrawn herself, but that implies more insecurity about it on her side, whereas the pity was from Aegnor's perspective.

I do wonder if Arwen's looks would deterioriate upon that choice, or if she just simply ceased to exist. She has lived the life of an elf for over 2000 years, so I wonder if she would physically age or just reach a point where she would die. Do her cells undergo a transformation when the life of the Eldar leaves her then?

Well, when you put it that way...yikes. I see what you mean though- the concept of aging would be so foreign to an elf that they wouldn't quite be sure what to do when it happens.

That does beg the idea though- was the choice of the Peredhil ONLY for the descendants of Elwing and Earendil, as in the decision was for them and their offspring alone, or would that choice apply to all elf/human pairings. I know they were rare, but as Aegnor and Andreth show, it could have happened, or at least had the potential to happen, again.

I imagine the Valar would have to figure out what to do with any future possibilities of pairings, so it makes me wonder if marriage automatically consigns the immortal elf to a mortal life, or if the mortal partner is given the choice of elf-kind (though I imagine they would have to do something pretty significant and/or selfless to be afforded that choice, like Earendil did). OR if each circumstance is deliberated individually.

Does Tolkien, or anywhere in his writings (book and otherwise) say anything about the consequences of such a pairing other than the specific instance of Elwing and Earendil's offspring?



My writing and novels:

My Hobbit Fanfiction

My historical novel print and kindle version

My historical novels ebook version compatible with all ereaders

You can also find my novel at most major book retailers online (and for those outside the US who prefer a print book, you can find the print version at Book Depository). Search "Amazing Grace Amanda Longpre'" to find it.

Happy reading everyone!


(This post was edited by Cirashala on Dec 31 2018, 12:27am)


Cirashala
Tol Eressea


Dec 31 2018, 12:30am

Post #11 of 63 (718 views)
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Nelson? [In reply to] Can't Post

Can you point me to an example?

My writing and novels:

My Hobbit Fanfiction

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My historical novels ebook version compatible with all ereaders

You can also find my novel at most major book retailers online (and for those outside the US who prefer a print book, you can find the print version at Book Depository). Search "Amazing Grace Amanda Longpre'" to find it.

Happy reading everyone!


Cirashala
Tol Eressea


Dec 31 2018, 12:34am

Post #12 of 63 (710 views)
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That is true [In reply to] Can't Post

Orcs are ugly and evil, elves are good and fair. Though he does break with this rule on occasion- Aragorn looking foul but good, and Sauron/Annatar looking fair but being evil.

Still, it does shortchange women who are amazing women but just not all that much to look at Unsure

My writing and novels:

My Hobbit Fanfiction

My historical novel print and kindle version

My historical novels ebook version compatible with all ereaders

You can also find my novel at most major book retailers online (and for those outside the US who prefer a print book, you can find the print version at Book Depository). Search "Amazing Grace Amanda Longpre'" to find it.

Happy reading everyone!


Cirashala
Tol Eressea


Dec 31 2018, 12:40am

Post #13 of 63 (711 views)
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Yes [In reply to] Can't Post

The sundering forever (or at least, as the elves and men can see it, though only Eru knows the true outcome in the end) would be absolutely heartbreaking for sure.

Still, I do wonder if the choice of the Peredhil was specifically tied to Elwing and Earendil's line, or if such a choice would have had to have been made in, say for example, the cases of Aegnor and Andreth, or if Findulias had married Turin (as she had in mind to do, though it was unrequited).

I guess the question is whether or not an elf would automatically have to forsake their immortal life if they chose to marry a mortal, or if each case would be left up to the Valar to decide if the elf is mortal then, or the mortal is of elven-kind then (like Idril and Tuor, and Earendil and Elwing). Or if the Valar's decision on the Earendil/Elwing offspring would set the precedent for ALL future pairings or potential pairings.

We see elf/human pairings (or potential ones) in Aegnor and Andreth, Findulias and Turin, Mithrellas and Imrazor (I think that was it), etc. So presumably the Valar would figure that, though rare, it could happen again. And then what? The decision of the "Ninth Circuit Court of Valinor" stands as precedent that all immortals must give up their mortality when wedding a mortal? Or does the mortal have the option (at the decision of Eru) to become immortal then? What about their children? Would they be given the choice of the Peredhil?

I wonder if there's anywhere in all of Tolkien's writings (book and otherwise) that would suggest if the decision by the Valar in Earendil and Elwing (elvenkind or mortal, and if elvenkind kids also get the choice), would be the final determination on the part of the Valar regarding what to do about this and any future elf/human pairings.

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Cirashala
Tol Eressea


Dec 31 2018, 12:41am

Post #14 of 63 (711 views)
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Oh thank goodness [In reply to] Can't Post

the airplanes and artillery were cut! Pirate

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Cirashala
Tol Eressea


Dec 31 2018, 12:43am

Post #15 of 63 (710 views)
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Can you draw, Meneldor? [In reply to] Can't Post

Because I'd love to see what you have in mind Smile As to galleys and caravels- are you referring to ships like the Spanish galleons used in the 16th century onwards?

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SirDennisC
Half-elven


Dec 31 2018, 2:04am

Post #16 of 63 (706 views)
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I’m sorry - [In reply to] Can't Post

What is “scietist” precious? What is scietist eh?



squire
Half-elven


Dec 31 2018, 2:08am

Post #17 of 63 (717 views)
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Nelson commanded a battle fleet at the height of the Age of Sail [In reply to] Can't Post

To get an idea of the difference between the kinds of sea-going ships that da Gama and Columbus used to sail to India and America in the late 1400s - as the Numenoreans did in their equivalent world - and the kinds of fighting ships that evolved over the following centuries before steam-powered battleships changed everything, see this scaled illustration:



The Carrack was a vast improvement over the galleys in the Mediterranean and the cogs that lumbered along the coasts of the Baltic and North Seas. It had a higher freeboard, and used a triangular sail, borrowed from Arab designs, that allowed it to sail into the wind. As well, it had a spacious hull that could carry a profitable cargo, and enough supplies to keep a crew alive on a transoceanic voyage. But as you see, in comparison to later designs it was small. This one is about 85 feet long. But you could sail it across the Atlantic and back again!

The Galleon is from the time of the battle of the Spanish Armada. It is a fighting ship, as we see from the double line of cannon and lighter guns, but it also can carry a large cargo and crew. It was designed for imperial volumes of trade and warfare, with neither mission displacing the other. It was the mainstay of the Spanish Empire, sailing from Cadiz to Cuba and Mexico, on to Argentina, around to Peru and Panama and California, across the Pacific to the Philippines and China, and back home via the Indian Ocean and around Africa if need be. It is 180 feet long.

The Battleship 'Victory', Nelson's ship (still preserved in London, by the way), is not much bigger, but is entirely dedicated to warfare. It has three full masts and three decks of guns and longer, sleeker lines than the earlier merchant warriors. Although it could and did cross oceans, it did so in search of the enemy fleet. It fought in a long line of battle against a parallel line of enemy ships, and traded cannon fire with its opposite number in line. (Thus its class name, 'Line-of-Battle Ship', soon shortened to "Battleship".) As the melee progressed, it grappled and boarded a weakened foe, while marines in the mast tops shot to kill the officers of the other ship. (Thus the tradition even today that Marines are all trained in marksmanship.) Victory is 230 feet long.

Now, I'm sure Tolkien would admit that the Numenoreans could have built galleons or battleships. But he never mentions them, and most of his Second Age writings suggest that Numenor never had a maritime enemy that justified dedicated fighting ships of such power. When Numenor's (or Gondor's as successor state) fleet is cited, it is for its impressive size, grandeur, and carrying capacity as a weapon of amphibious warfare: that is, it is designed to land and support a great land army, rather than to fight a naval armada of some dark power. We see this when Numenor lands at Umbar and humbles Sauron, when it vainly sails against Valinor, and later when Gondor sends an army by sea to the north in support of beleaguered Arnor (or is it Arthedain?).

And between galleons and battleships, 1600 and 1800, I would vote that Numenor built galleons. They combined fighting power with cargo capacity, and were more general-purpose imperial ships. They are also somewhat more antique and suitable to my image of Numenor as a Renaissance state rather than a pre-modern one.

Sorry if this is more info than you wanted. Some here know that, when not on TORn, I do frequent another message board dedicated entirely to ....BATTLESHIPS!



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Cirashala
Tol Eressea


Dec 31 2018, 2:22am

Post #18 of 63 (706 views)
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Nothing to forgive! [In reply to] Can't Post

Your post had tons of info that I was incredibly curious about-thank you! Sly

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Meneldor
Valinor


Dec 31 2018, 7:07pm

Post #19 of 63 (648 views)
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See the inestimable Squire's comprehensive post for caravels and galleons. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Because I'd love to see what you have in mind Smile As to galleys and caravels- are you referring to ships like the Spanish galleons used in the 16th century onwards?



I'm no artist, but I am a marginally competent draftsman. My interpretation of a Teleri swanship is the image in my signature, if you can see that.


They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107


noWizardme
Valinor


Dec 31 2018, 10:52pm

Post #20 of 63 (640 views)
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Horatio Nelson, British Admiral - and a tangent about naval museums [In reply to] Can't Post

Nelson was the British admiral commanding the Royal Navy at the Battle of Trafalgar (1805), a sea battle that destroyed Napoleon as a naval threat, and made Britain the world’s dominant naval power for a century or more. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/..._1st_Viscount_Nelson

To riff off the battleships enthusiasm: As squire says, Nelson’s flagship HMS Victoy is preserved in Portsmouth, England. You can go all over it. There’s a complex of museums there- visitors can also see the Mary Rose (Tudor battleship that capsized in Portsmouth harbour and was salvaged remarkably intact in the 1970s). It’s really something. There’s also HMS Warrior, a Victorian warship with breech-loading guns and a steam engine to supplement sails. Also, a fine museum including two submarines you can wander around. Allow the best part of 2 days to see it all, I’d say.

~~~~~~
"Go down to the shovel store and take your pick." Traditional prank played on dwarves when they start down the mine.


noWizardme
Valinor


Dec 31 2018, 11:00pm

Post #21 of 63 (642 views)
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Battleships getting bigger... [In reply to] Can't Post

..,to do with having to carry all that artillery low down in the hull, would you say, squire? Did bigger and bigger guns drive a race for bigger ships, with more below decks?

Gunpowderless Numenor might have developed differently I suppose- but then I suppose one could readily fanfiction heavy catapults or similar, which would stand for cannon and drive a similar evolution of ever bigger ships...

~~~~~~
"Go down to the shovel store and take your pick." Traditional prank played on dwarves when they start down the mine.


Cirashala
Tol Eressea


Jan 1, 2:13am

Post #22 of 63 (628 views)
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That ship is beautiful :) [In reply to] Can't Post

Everyone has their talents manifest in different ways Smile And I like your thinking of what the Teleri ships would have looked like.

I'm curious to see if you have an interpretation of what the Corsair ships looked like. Given that we know that the Haradrim/Southrons/Men of Umbar took slaves (because Aragorn freed slaves chained to oars) it does make me wonder what the interior of them would look like too.

The ships we saw in the movies seem, to me, to be AWFULLY low to the water (about a man's height) to be considered even remotely seaworthy. I could see them capsizing in even 10 mph/knot winds Crazy

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Happy reading everyone!


Cirashala
Tol Eressea


Jan 1, 2:16am

Post #23 of 63 (627 views)
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Add that to the list [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm an American and my husband doesn't make enough to fly all 4 of us (ourselves and our two girls) overseas. Heck, we don't even have passports because why bother? Only place we can afford to travel to is Canada (which is also on the list. I saw it at 4 years old but barely remember anything), because it's only 2 hours drive north of us (north Idaho). I do want to see Jasper, but still...

Someday I hope to be able to visit Europe, and I'll add those ship sites to our dream list Smile But it's certainly not going to happen anytime soon, especially as we're on one income right now. I would LOVE to see it though! Smile

My writing and novels:

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You can also find my novel at most major book retailers online (and for those outside the US who prefer a print book, you can find the print version at Book Depository). Search "Amazing Grace Amanda Longpre'" to find it.

Happy reading everyone!


Cirashala
Tol Eressea


Jan 1, 2:20am

Post #24 of 63 (631 views)
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All that rigging though [In reply to] Can't Post

How would a catapult be able to function on a ship? That ship would have to be several hundred feet long and have no rigging/ropes along most of its side (not likely- something needs to hold the sails, etc). Cannons have the unique ability to stick out the sides, but a catapult (and the laws of physics in such a weapon) require a counterweight to function, which involves something spinning vertically (wait, that's a trebuchet), or at least flipping upwards vertically.

I can't see a catapult on the ship because I would think the rigging would get in the way.

Meneldor- thoughts? Could a catapult work, or would there be too much rigging to worry about?

My writing and novels:

My Hobbit Fanfiction

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My historical novels ebook version compatible with all ereaders

You can also find my novel at most major book retailers online (and for those outside the US who prefer a print book, you can find the print version at Book Depository). Search "Amazing Grace Amanda Longpre'" to find it.

Happy reading everyone!


noWizardme
Valinor


Jan 1, 8:54am

Post #25 of 63 (621 views)
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It does rule out levers, I think [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree- something like a giant crossbow, or the state-of-the-art medieval trebuchet would take a lot of room for their long levers. I think we’re well into a fictive process here, so why not have, say, something cannon-shaped that draws back a coiled spring? Or something else: I feel that in fiction the storytelling eventually reaches the place where for some greatly desired detail you solemnly explain *that* it works, and handwave the details. It depends on the audience wanting it too, I think...

~~~~~~
"Go down to the shovel store and take your pick." Traditional prank played on dwarves when they start down the mine.

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