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squire
Half-elven
Dec 29 2018, 2:13am
Post #26 of 59
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I'm not sure I follow how a gag that "works" means its presence can't be criticized.
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I'm reminded of a story about W. S. Gilbert directing his famous comic operas, with music by Sir Arthur Sullivan. The nature of the humor is that the operas are to be played 'straight', as if they were grand operas, and so the incongruity of the silly plots and comic dialogue combined with superb light operatic music is hilarious.
Now on opening night, one of the leads was camping up his role: making faces and rude gestures towards his counterparts. Gilbert chewed the fellow out afterwards, telling him directly to cut out any 'business' he hadn't been given by the director.
"But the audience laughed!" he protested.
"So they would if you'd chased the chorus round with a bladder [inflated rubber club]! Do it again and you're out of the company!" stormed Gilbert.
Here's the point. "Gags" may work to elicit laughter, relieve tension, deepen character contrasts, etc. But if their nature is of a tone or type that is in contradiction with the drama's overall tone or type, they have no place whether they're funny or not. It's the director's job, whether Mr. Gilbert or Sir Peter, to set the overall tone of the work and to decide where and how humor, anger, sadness, or other melodramatic outbursts fit into that concept.
I don't think we are in agreement on the larger issue, which is the degree to which a director of a Tolkien adaptation should respect and work within the fundamental tone values of the written work. I agree with the previous post that body-function gags, i.e. potty humor, are so outside the realm of Tolkien's dramatic imagination that including them in an adaptation, no matter how artfully one imagines them to be employed, is a very black mark on the artfulness of the adaptation.
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Chen G.
Gondor
Dec 29 2018, 9:59am
Post #27 of 59
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When I mean that the humour's working, I don't mean strictly from the point of view of making the audience laugh. That's a much trickier parameter, because humour is much more subjective than other narrative elements.
What I mean by work is percisely what you claim doesn't work: not violating the film's overall tone. Really, this idea that a film should be completetly single-minded when it comes to the tone of his work is just misplaced.
Lots of films that are of a very serious tone have comedic, if not stupidly comedic, moments of humour in them. I've cited Braveheart but its also true of Gibson's latest - Hacksaw Ridge. Its true of Saving Private Ryan and lots of Spielberg films, and its true of the better Harry Potter films, and some of the Marvel entries.
One of the reasons why it works - and why I would argue that it works here - is that tone, like other elements of any narrative work put to film, requires escalation. Simply put, the film needs to start lighter than it ends up. Serving up physical comedy in the opening of Return of the King might be a bit crude, but it achieves that purpose. As each film continues, the crude humour that's in the beginning tends to dissappear.
Another reason is that, for the most part, the most comedic beat of a scene isn't played directly after or before the most serious one. The only cases close to that are, as I mentioned, Gimli's burp in The Two Towers, and Radagast's introduction to pipeweed as he's describing his escape from Dol Guldur. But I'll take two moments of tonal dissonance across such a long series and not miss a heartbeat.
And lastly, I think the real question is whether or not the film has a unified tone to begin with. If its just a couple of jokes that showcase a different tone, that's one thing. If its incessant comedy that prevents the film from ever settling into any one tone, than that's a problem. That doesn't happen with these films.
(This post was edited by Chen G. on Dec 29 2018, 10:03am)
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Dec 29 2018, 3:39pm
Post #28 of 59
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This has nothing to do with the crass humor that is being discussed
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Obviously it made you, and even many others, laugh, but it wasn't intended as a joke, and certainly cannot be imputed to Peter Jackson as yet another crass humor joke even at such a dramatic moment. It is rather at the other end of the spectrum, I'd say!... Too much over the top even as an elf stunt, perhaps, but this is not what we are talking about.
'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
(This post was edited by mae govannen on Dec 29 2018, 3:41pm)
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Dec 29 2018, 3:51pm
Post #29 of 59
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Thank you for the quiet simplicity of your answer in the 'Subject' line: it says it all, for me also. 
'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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Chen G.
Gondor
Dec 29 2018, 4:01pm
Post #30 of 59
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Too much over the top even as an elf stunt, perhaps, but this is not what we are talking about.
I don't care for that stunt of Legolas. But I don't mind others of his.
But you're right, its not the point of the discussion. Hell, the discussion of Jackson's sense of humour is itself a digression from the thread subject.
(This post was edited by Chen G. on Dec 29 2018, 4:03pm)
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2ndBreffest
Lorien
Dec 29 2018, 4:05pm
Post #31 of 59
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It may not be the crass toilet humor we've all come to expect from PJ
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...however, I recall many people laughing during that scene, and I think it may have been intended to be humorous, in the same way as having Legolas standing on the dwarves heads during the barrel scene which also elicited many laughs from the audience.
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Dec 29 2018, 4:06pm
Post #32 of 59
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At last an accurate analysis deflating the exagerated meaning
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and importance given to some of these crass humor cases. Thank you for that clarity!
'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Dec 29 2018, 4:12pm
Post #33 of 59
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Certainly not "all' . Please don't generalize... //
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'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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Chen G.
Gondor
Dec 29 2018, 4:18pm
Post #34 of 59
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think it may have been intended to be humorous, in the same way as having Legolas standing on the dwarves heads during the barrel scene which also elicited many laughs from the audience.
I think the Legolas stunts in The Battle of the Five Armies were intended to be cool. I don't think they're terribly effective, although I do like the fight with Bolg. I think, had the other stunts in the film been pulled back, that one setpiece wouldn't feel like such an overload.
The Desolation of Smaug is different, for three reasons:
1. Without Legolas there'd be no action in The Desolation of Smaug, so he gets a free pass of-sorts, in that regard.
2. There's much less Legolas stunts in it, and they're much more contained.
3. Lastly, and to your point, that particular stunt is played from the point of view of the Dwarves (specifically Dwalin). Legolas is framed in such a way that the camera, like the actors, kind of scuffs at his flamboyance, rather than revel in it.
(This post was edited by Chen G. on Dec 29 2018, 4:32pm)
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2ndBreffest
Lorien
Dec 29 2018, 4:34pm
Post #35 of 59
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people were laughing during the scene where Legolas is running up the falling bridge, but that may have been on account of it looking so fake. Truthfully, I would have preferred PJ inserting a fart gag here instead if his intention was indeed to get a laugh out of the audience...it would have been more dignified.
(This post was edited by 2ndBreffest on Dec 29 2018, 4:46pm)
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Chen G.
Gondor
Dec 29 2018, 5:04pm
Post #36 of 59
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I like the running up the crumbling tower bit
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Really, both fights with Bolg are nice. I just fast-forward through the other shenanigans, so it doesn't come off as Legolas-overload.
Had it been edited like that, it would've worked much better.
(This post was edited by Chen G. on Dec 29 2018, 5:07pm)
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skyofcoffeebeans
Rohan
Dec 29 2018, 5:29pm
Post #37 of 59
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... you essentially are making your own fan edit in real time. 
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irasel
The Shire
Dec 29 2018, 5:36pm
Post #38 of 59
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What do you think about the thread subject?
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Hell, the discussion of Jackson's sense of humour is itself a digression from the thread subject.
I'm kind of surprised PJ's sense of humour criticism has become the main topic debated in this thread. It's interesting but I wish I could read more opinions/predictions/wishes concerning the thread subject.
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Chen G.
Gondor
Dec 29 2018, 5:38pm
Post #39 of 59
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I'd be amazed if I skip through more than a minute or two of film overall.
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Chen G.
Gondor
Dec 29 2018, 5:43pm
Post #40 of 59
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It's interesting but I wish I could read more opinions/predictions/wishes concerning the thread subject.
To your point, I wouldn't think we'd see too much in the way of returning cast members.
I do think we'll see a familiar visual look (probably more like that of The Hobbit, being that TV tends to be shot digitally), and returning sets. Since WETA have already rendered a lot of these environments, using CG for the likes of Rivendell shouldn't be too prohibiting for Amazon.
Narrativelly, I think we will see an Aragorn that hasn't come to gripes with his heritage - unlike book Aragorn, but very much like that of the films.
I'm sure Shore's principal themes will return. He's basically plotted the entire soundscape.
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2ndBreffest
Lorien
Dec 29 2018, 6:21pm
Post #41 of 59
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I would like to hear that Amazon has decided to take this in a completely new direction, and completely distance itself from the PJ movies. I know it would be a bold move on their part, and difficult for many fans of the PJ movies to accept, but Middle-earth existed long before PJ came along, and his vision is not the only one possible. Christopher Tolkien himself thinks PJ's LotR is awful and not at all a worthy representation of his father's creation. I would like to see a director who would be interested in at least attempting to create something that Christopher would find to be an acceptable representation of Middle-earth. I know it's a tall order, and one that is not likely to be filled, but after PJ's Hobbit, I really don't need to see any more.
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squire
Half-elven
Dec 29 2018, 6:47pm
Post #42 of 59
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It's certainly a difficult question
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Amazon intends to develop the TV series in the same universe as the movies. What do you think it can imply in practice?
1) Returning cast for some shared characters (Elrond, Arwen...)
That is certainly implied by a shared universe, but I imagine practical difficulties such as availability and the sheer passage of time will allow them to re-cast whoever they want. I don't particularly need to see Weaving reprise Elrond again - another face in the same kind of robes with the same kind of mock-portentous dialogue and the same hair and make-up will probably be fine. In the end, the different media involved ensure that we will not be asked to binge-watch this series and then jump over to the DVDs to 'continue' the story with the Jackson films.
2) Some framing device linking the movies and the series (as in The Hobbit movies to connect them to LOTR trilogy)
That certainly makes sense. It depends what their overall scenario is for the new material. Is this all supposed to be from the 'Red Book', as it were? Or from Aragorn dictating his memoirs in old age, in a tome that Prof. Tolkien inexplicably was unable to include in his masterwork of translation? Etc. This is very open, but certainly Tolkien himself had a weakness for framing devices.
3) Same locations (New Zealand ranges as Misty Mountains...)
I wouldn't insist on this. Seen one alpine mountain range, seen 'em all. As others have already noted, it's quite possible that they'll expand "Middle-earth" to include topographies that New Zealand doesn't really excel at.
4) Reusing/rebuilding movie sets (Rivendell...)
I'd expect them to stick the films' design styles (Art Nouveau = Elves, Art Deco = Dwarves, Romanesque = Gondor, etc.) than I would want them to copy the sets themselves. It's too limiting to the new team.
5) Reusing/remaking certain movie costume designs (Gondor soldier armors...)
Again, not really necessary in detail so much as in inspiration, line, palette, etc.
6) Reusing/remaking movie key props (Narsil...)
I guess. If you told me some sword was Narsil, I'd believe you. In the films, as opposed to the endless publicity and collectibles photos, I don't believe we see any props in enough detail to demand that they be replicated for a new series.
7) Reusing movie score to some degree (main themes?)
It seems inevitable, but really I'd only want that if it was Shore himself composing. It's incredibly cruel to another artist to tell them to copy another's music when composing dozens of hours of thematic material. I'll bet they split the difference so it will sound "Shore-ish".
8) Returning movie crew (Alan Lee, John Howe...)
No need. I do hope they create a new visual vocabulary suited to their story and medium. Lee and Howe's work can be referred to, of course.
9) Something else?
As others have said, I wished they'd just break away and start anew, to give 'other hands" a chance to evoke Tolkien's world. But if they do attempt the tie-in for commercial reasons, I hope it's done both with high taste and respect for the book, with its deeply historical and cultural references, as much as the New Line films.
In the end, it's going to be about the writing. That's the key, and Jackson has nothing to say about that, as far as we know.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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2ndBreffest
Lorien
Dec 29 2018, 7:50pm
Post #44 of 59
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If the Hobbit movies never happened, I wouldn't really have as much trepidation as I do now with PJ's possible involvement in the series, but if they absolutely insist on basing the series in Peter-earth, the only thing I can really think of is hiring a team of really good writers. As there is very little from Tolkien himself to go on, striking the balance between something that feels authentic and something that comes off as cheesy fan-fic is going to be difficult and based on what I have seen from PJ and co when they went off script in the Hobbit, I don't think they're up to the task here. Everything else...I'm mostly ok with...dwarves should have beards though. And the Tauriel/Kili stuff never happened. Oh, and no more burping and farting. And tone down the over the top action sequences. I mean seriously, the barrel scene was 5 mins long.
(This post was edited by 2ndBreffest on Dec 29 2018, 7:55pm)
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
Dec 29 2018, 8:26pm
Post #45 of 59
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I wonder how much influence the Tolkien Estate will have on the script.
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striking the balance between something that feels authentic and something that comes off as cheesy fan-fic is going to be difficult
I'd love to know if the agreement between the estate and Amazon includes some type of script review/approval/opinion to be strongly considered.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
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2ndBreffest
Lorien
Dec 29 2018, 8:30pm
Post #46 of 59
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I truly hope so. It's really the only hope we have at this point.
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Cirashala
Valinor
Dec 29 2018, 8:57pm
Post #47 of 59
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I for one had many moments, most notably in BO5A, where humor ended up not being funny (or in a few cases, downright stupid- Alfrid's demise, for example, and Legolas' mario cart and bat-riding, and DOS's Legolas twinkle toes on dwarf heads). But in the cases cited above, I don't see why people get their panties in such a twist over it. Those instances specifically were meant to convey a part of the plot/move it forward in a way that my above examples do not.
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Happy reading everyone!
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Dec 30 2018, 1:27am
Post #48 of 59
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Treachery, treachery I fear; treachery of that miserable creature.
But so it must be. Let us remember that a traitor may betray himself and do good that he does not intend.
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Dec 30 2018, 4:04am
Post #49 of 59
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All of the above for me - including Howard Shore as a must
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For me, the main musical themes over both trilogies have felt so wonderfully appropriate for each culture and each main character, I really want, for my own joy, Howard Shore to continue on this work - that, by the way, he just loves to do, for he too is in love with Middle-earth and he feels this is the magnum opus of his life, so why deprive him of his own joy either, when I think most people appreciate it as much as I do...
In 'The Hobbit' films though, I have had at times difficulty to hear the accompanying music loudly enough, and wondered if the recording had been done in the right way in that respect (perhaps there have been threads here about this, that I don't know about?...), so, to me at least, it would be great to have the same themes that he composed for 'The Hobbit' be present again, this time in a more really audible manner, particularly for this TV Series that will more or less span the time period between 'The Hobbit' and 'The Lord of the Rings', if I understand well.
The participation of Howard Shore is so important for me that since long I wanted to bring it up as a separate topic, having not seen it discussed at all here, to my great surprise - but maybe I have missed those threads about Howard Shore for the TV Series? Any way, now is a good opportunity to bring this point up, so I just did!...
'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
(This post was edited by mae govannen on Dec 30 2018, 4:07am)
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Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Rohan
Dec 30 2018, 10:32pm
Post #50 of 59
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As much as I'd love to see some of the original cast return
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I doubt that'll happen - maybe as cameos of some sort, for some of them? Or you could have Viggo play Aragorn's father, Arathorn? Just a suggestion.
The score should feel new, IMO - for instance, the score for the Fantastic Beasts occasionally harks back to HP, but is still very new and very original; and, in fact, I believe it might be up for an Oscar nomination.
Alan Lee and John Howe, in my opinion, would be great assets. I just love their work. However, in this day and age, there are artists everywhere on social media platforms whose work is beautiful - so I wouldn't mind seeing some new art directors.
And New Zealand has a lot to offer, in way of continuity, obviously, but again I don't need to have Middle-earth completely filmed there. I would like some locations to be there, though - and hopefully they use a lot of real locations, rather than just green-screening everything.
Hmm...props. Interesting question. I'd like new props, I think. Not that the swords and armor and stuff in the trilogies weren't beautiful, but I'd like to see new stuff. Just going through the Art of the Hobbit books, there are a billion prop and costume concept art designs that could be used, since they were obviously never in the actual films.
And sets: the only ones I really want to be at least similar to the originals are Hobbiton, Rivendell and Lorien.
"Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not hold me back. But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy. Now I have taken my worst wound in this parting, even if I were to go this night straight to the Dark Lord."
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