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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Middle-earth TV Series Discussion:
Shared universe practical implications
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irasel
The Shire


Dec 28 2018, 2:08pm

Post #1 of 59 (1894 views)
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Shared universe practical implications Can't Post

Peter Jackson has stated more than once that Amazon intends to develop the TV series in the same universe as the movies. What do you think it can imply in practice?

1) Returning cast for some shared characters (Elrond, Arwen...)

2) Some framing device linking the movies and the series (as in The Hobbit movies to connect them to LOTR trilogy)

3) Same locations (New Zealand ranges as Misty Mountains...)

4) Reusing/rebuilding movie sets (Rivendell...)

5) Reusing/remaking certain movie costume designs (Gondor soldier armors...)

6) Reusing/remaking movie key props (Narsil...)

7) Reusing movie score to some degree (main themes?)

8) Returning movie crew (Alan Lee, John Howe...)

9) Something else?


(This post was edited by irasel on Dec 28 2018, 2:22pm)


2ndBreffest
Rivendell


Dec 28 2018, 2:12pm

Post #2 of 59 (1793 views)
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all of the above, likely [In reply to] Can't Post

...and farting.


Chen G.
Lorien

Dec 28 2018, 2:19pm

Post #3 of 59 (1789 views)
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Hmm [In reply to] Can't Post

Fact: there's not a single fart-joke in the entirety of the sextet.

There's a fair bit of burping, mentions of toilets, and a loud abdominal-sound from Pippin. But never farts.


(This post was edited by Chen G. on Dec 28 2018, 2:29pm)


2ndBreffest
Rivendell


Dec 28 2018, 2:29pm

Post #4 of 59 (1782 views)
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well, Gimli in the extended edition [In reply to] Can't Post

Pippin after eating the lembas bread, and also burping. Either way, there will be some form of gaseous emissions.


Chen G.
Lorien

Dec 28 2018, 2:34pm

Post #5 of 59 (1774 views)
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No [In reply to] Can't Post

There's not one instance of farts - just one instance of an abdominal noise from Pippin. That's it.

Burping jokes are mostly on account of the Dwarves, where I find them more excusable because they're meant as sort of shorthand of Viking culture (or Viking culture as percieved by 21-century popular culture), on which the films' Dwarves are closely modelled.

It also works within the framework of An Unexpected Journey (where most of the physical comedy is contained) which is very intentionally the lightest of all six pieces.


(This post was edited by Chen G. on Dec 28 2018, 2:36pm)


2ndBreffest
Rivendell


Dec 28 2018, 2:36pm

Post #6 of 59 (1770 views)
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fart [In reply to] Can't Post

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7CBhQLZg2I

34 seconds in.


(This post was edited by 2ndBreffest on Dec 28 2018, 2:40pm)


MoreMorgoth
Bree

Dec 28 2018, 2:37pm

Post #7 of 59 (1774 views)
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yes- Middle-earth [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Peter Jackson has stated more than once that Amazon intends to develop the TV series in the same universe as the movies. What do you think it can imply in practice?

1) Returning cast for some shared characters (Elrond, Arwen...)

2) Some framing device linking the movies and the series (as in The Hobbit movies to connect them to LOTR trilogy)

3) Same locations (New Zealand ranges as Misty Mountains...)

4) Reusing/rebuilding movie sets (Rivendell...)

5) Reusing/remaking certain movie costume designs (Gondor soldier armors...)

6) Reusing/remaking movie key props (Narsil...)

7) Reusing movie score to some degree (main themes?)

8) Returning movie crew (Alan Lee, John Howe...)

9) Something else?


That would be fine with me.Doing it that way could see tens of millions of dollars not the mention the time it would take to develop all new things.

I would also hope to see new things as well. I think that would be the best of both worlds.


Chen G.
Lorien

Dec 28 2018, 2:43pm

Post #8 of 59 (1759 views)
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Huh [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7CBhQLZg2I


I always thought it was the foley work for the chair creaking when he rises.

At any rate, you're making way too much of one fart joke in 21 hours of cinema.


2ndBreffest
Rivendell


Dec 28 2018, 2:49pm

Post #9 of 59 (1754 views)
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burping, farting, boogers... [In reply to] Can't Post

the old, "there could be anything down my trousers." gag. The point is, PJ has a propensity for crude humor of the bathroom variety.


Chen G.
Lorien

Dec 28 2018, 2:50pm

Post #10 of 59 (1758 views)
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So? [In reply to] Can't Post

When delivered in moderation (which it is) I find that it gives the films a bit of character - a cheekiness that other franchises won't dare approach. You'd never get that in, say, a Star Wars film.

The only two specific jokes I don't care for, in this regard, are Gimli burping in Edoras while Theoden is deliberating what to do with Saruman, and smoke coming out of Radagast's ears just in the middle of his account of The Necromancer. Its just the juxtaposition of the joke in the middle of what is very serious material (which otherwise never happens quite like that) that I just don't find compelling.

Still, two moments of misplaced humor within such a huge cycle are hardly a major criticism.


(This post was edited by Chen G. on Dec 28 2018, 3:00pm)


2ndBreffest
Rivendell


Dec 28 2018, 3:00pm

Post #11 of 59 (1747 views)
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well [In reply to] Can't Post

Perhaps this sort of thing would fit in a Harry Potter movie, but it's not something I would expect to see in an adaptation of Tolkien's work.


FrodoEyes
Rivendell

Dec 28 2018, 7:03pm

Post #12 of 59 (1694 views)
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Real people fart too! [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't be snobby about Harry Potter. There's likely more burping and farting in the Hobbit and LOTR.

I can't believe what this discussion has turned into!

'I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.'
'So do all who live to see such times but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us.'


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Dec 28 2018, 7:15pm

Post #13 of 59 (1701 views)
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My answers [In reply to] Can't Post

1) Returning cast for some shared characters (Elrond, Arwen...)

No

2) Some framing device linking the movies and the series (as in The Hobbit movies to connect them to LOTR trilogy)

No

3) Same locations (New Zealand ranges as Misty Mountains...)

Yes

4) Reusing/rebuilding movie sets (Rivendell...)

Maybe

5) Reusing/remaking certain movie costume designs (Gondor soldier armors...)

Maybe

6) Reusing/remaking movie key props (Narsil...)

Maybe

7) Reusing movie score to some degree (main themes?)

No

8) Returning movie crew (Alan Lee, John Howe...)

Possibly some, but now Lee or Howe, or any other major player

9) Something else?

Possibly.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


2ndBreffest
Rivendell


Dec 28 2018, 7:22pm

Post #14 of 59 (1687 views)
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true, people do fart [In reply to] Can't Post

however, while reading Tolkien, I never once asked myself which of the characters was most likely to rip one in public, but now, according to PJ anyway I now have the answer, not that I ever really needed it.

And nothing against Harry Potter, but its not exactly on the same level of writing as Tolkien, and toilet humor wouldn't feel so out of place, so even if the director of the movies added a few farts that weren't in the books, it would mostly go unnoticed.


Intergalactic Lawman
Rohan


Dec 28 2018, 9:53pm

Post #15 of 59 (1640 views)
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Good lord... [In reply to] Can't Post

"a cheekiness that other franchises won't dare approach"
Give me a break! Clearly you have forgotten GOT... (Which I love by the way) BUT - Tolkien and his Middle Earth books were always the classiest and best literature of their genre, PJ is flat out immature and brought that low level humor to a franchise that did not need it at all Mad Can't believe people try and defend it...


Chen G.
Lorien

Dec 28 2018, 10:34pm

Post #16 of 59 (1625 views)
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I was talking cinematically [In reply to] Can't Post

Its the only film franchise to have this kind of quirky sensibilities.

I find that its the supposed puerility of this (rather sparse) humor which makes the exceedingly mature themes (isolationism, death, self-sacrifice, friendship, loyalty, obstinacy, addiction) feel that much more profound.

Also, because most of this physical comedy is channeled through the Dwarves, it works as a shorthand of how we percieve Viking culture to be. It speaks to the crass nature of the characters.

Its like Braveheart - itself very much a mould for these films. One moment, there's a ponderous deliberation between diplomacy and jingoism; the other - there's an erection joke. One moment, arrows bring death to dozens, the very next, a character breaks into a manic laugh. One moment, there's the extremly dramatic execution; in the next, we get the line: "I hope you washed your a*se this morning - its about to be kissed by a king."


(This post was edited by Chen G. on Dec 28 2018, 10:49pm)


skyofcoffeebeans
Rivendell

Dec 28 2018, 10:54pm

Post #17 of 59 (1604 views)
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An erection joke did not / does not belong in the Hobbit [In reply to] Can't Post

That is all.


Chen G.
Lorien

Dec 28 2018, 10:57pm

Post #18 of 59 (1606 views)
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No more than it does in the tragedy of Sir William Wallace [In reply to] Can't Post

But it works in both, so whether it "belongs" is irrelevant.


2ndBreffest
Rivendell


Dec 28 2018, 10:58pm

Post #19 of 59 (1603 views)
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well [In reply to] Can't Post

"Also, because most of this physical comedy is channeled through the Dwarves, it works as a shorthand of how we percieve Viking culture to be. It speaks to the crass nature of the characters."
This is a pretty offensive and untrue stereotype of Norse culture, which goes to further illustrate PJ's penchant for hollywood cliches and vulgarity.



Chen G.
Lorien

Dec 28 2018, 11:02pm

Post #20 of 59 (1596 views)
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Offensive?! [In reply to] Can't Post

To a culture from centuries ago? Come on...

Shorthand is a perfectly acceptable mode of storytelling.

At any rate, you're all making way too much out of what probably amounts to a total of four or five minutes of crass humor across a 21-hour-long series. I mean, if it were me, I would've trimmed it a bit further, but gimmie a break.


(This post was edited by Chen G. on Dec 28 2018, 11:10pm)


2ndBreffest
Rivendell


Dec 28 2018, 11:11pm

Post #21 of 59 (1584 views)
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sure [In reply to] Can't Post

Do you not think that modern day descendants of the Vikings might take offense to their ancestors being parodied by PJ as a bunch of farting, uncouth nincompoops?


Chen G.
Lorien

Dec 28 2018, 11:24pm

Post #22 of 59 (1575 views)
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Sigh [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not going to go down the rabbit-hole of the touchiness that characterizes our time. Its a fad that'll blow over.

Besides, there's something to be said for unapologetic cinema (beyond it being "politically correct" or not) on the level of characterization. In looking out for instantly sympathetic characters, filmmakers often put their characters on pedestals, which is fine, but lacks complexity.

When I think of certain films as being "complex", I'm not necessarily thinking about the intellectual depths of their themes, but about the complexity of the viewing experience, so far as it pertains to following the film's main character.

There's something to be said for a narrative that's crafted such that you root for a character in spite of them possessing unlikable (if not outright villanous) characteristics.

Its true of the crass nature of the Dwarves, of Thorin's pride and abstinence, just as its true of Bilbo's prissy demeanor. You learn to love them in spite of those traits. Because on the one hand, they're crass, but on the other, they're cleaned Bilbo's house. They're stubborn, but they're also loyal fighters - these contrasting characteristics are a great tool that Jackson uses the make his characters feel three-dimensional.

I also think this humor serves a structural purpose. If you peer more closely, you'll see its mostly concentrated at the beginning - both of the individual films, and of the series as a whole - it makes the transition into darker material that much more impactful.

There's a relevant passage in the commentary to "The Battle of the Five Armies", coinciding with the beginning of the third act (right before Fili's death) where Jackson comments along the lines of "well, from this point on, we can't have humor anymore."


(This post was edited by Chen G. on Dec 28 2018, 11:29pm)


skyofcoffeebeans
Rivendell

Dec 29 2018, 12:56am

Post #23 of 59 (1539 views)
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Five minutes later... [In reply to] Can't Post

Legolas murders 85 orcs upside down riding a bat


Cirashala
Tol Eressea


Dec 29 2018, 1:47am

Post #24 of 59 (1535 views)
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well [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm 1/4 Norwegian and 1/8 Swedish and I wasn't offended Wink And I'm not kidding- one look at my profile pic and you'd see the Scandinavian in me!

I think a huge point to remember is that the fart in TTT is to illustrate just HOW drunk Gimli is. He's beyond the point of caring for social niceties, which is why the belch and fart in that case was used specifically to show how drunk he is.


You'll notice that when he burped during the talk between Gandalf and Theoden, it was more muted and he tried to cover his mouth, being FAR more conscious of social propriety in that moment.

I mean, come on. Haven't you ever accidentally had a burp slip out unexpectedly? I once let out a belch in a crowded restaurant that would make a 12 year old boy extremely jealous (keep in mind I'm a 5 foot tall/1.53m tall girl, and at the time only weighed 115 lbs/52.5 kg)- completely unexpected, and at the gawking from all the guys around the table (bible study, only a couple girls that night) who couldn't believe I could even produce that loud of a burp, I about wanted to crawl under the table and die (seriously, it was bigger and louder than Ori's in AUJ-another time when a dwarf was drunk, mind you).

I believe the belch during the serious conversation was one of those instances- it came out, but Gimli tried to muffle it and it does sound like he mutters an apology under his breath.

But the other one, and the fart, were specifically because he was stone-cold drunk, and it was their way to show that he was (we needed to know in that instance that he was losing the bet/game, despite his dwarven pride saying he'd beat Legolas).

As to Pippin's belch- if you just ate a weeks' worth of meals, I bet you'd have some pretty bad indigestion too!

Now, there are MANY moments in the two trilogies (most of them in BO5A...concerning Alfrid, Legolas and Tauriel...) that I think could have either been done better or should be omitted.

But these specific ones are used to show something- Gimli being drunk (and the serious conv one being the contrast to the unencumbered belch when drunk), Pippin having a serious case of indigestion (and proving Legolas' statement- and the elves in the book's statement- that these tiny pieces of bread actually expanded in the stomach to a full meal with a simple bite), etc were meant to show specific things in the plot that we would not have otherwise known.


Unlike a book, which can describe things, movies need to show them. That is one of the biggest differences between literary and cinematic mediums.

So while I still don't forgive the atrocity that was Legolas in TH or the stupid love triangle or Alfrid's gold coin boobs and death by troll throat, I can forgive the belching and farting for the reasons above.

My writing and novels:

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You can also find my novel at most major book retailers online (and for those outside the US who prefer a print book, you can find the print version at Book Depository). Search "Amazing Grace Amanda Longpre'" to find it.

Happy reading everyone!


Cirashala
Tol Eressea


Dec 29 2018, 1:51am

Post #25 of 59 (1527 views)
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Yeah... [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with you there. In fact, the whole Legolas/Tauriel storyline (save the Feast of Starlight scene- it was beautiful and threw me back to Cuvienen) was terrible, as was Alfrid's gold coin boobs and his stupid death, and the stupid love triangle.

That was a very dumb stunt for sure.

My writing and novels:

My Hobbit Fanfiction

My historical novel print and kindle version

My historical novels ebook version compatible with all ereaders

You can also find my novel at most major book retailers online (and for those outside the US who prefer a print book, you can find the print version at Book Depository). Search "Amazing Grace Amanda Longpre'" to find it.

Happy reading everyone!

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