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Cirashala
Valinor
Dec 6 2018, 8:19pm
Post #1 of 37
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Random musings from a bored and tired mind
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Some random questions that have popped into my head of late (and yes I know some of these won't have 100% provable answers, so feel free to speculate on what the Prof didn't elaborate on):
1. Elves and body hair- we know that Cirdan is the only elf with a beard (a rather inconsistent portrayal from Tolkien regarding elves), but what about body hair? I'm not talking elves as being little tanks of hairballs like dwarves, but do you think that elves at least had body hair in the "usual places"?
2. Do elves go through puberty? I would imagine they at least have to experience the effects of growing up from child to adult, but do they have to deal with crazy hormones and acne too? Imagining Arwen with acne is...different.
3. Why did the men always marry up, and the women always marry down, in terms of either race or social class? Melian was Maia, Thingol/Elwe was elf; Arwen was born elf, Aragorn man; Luthien half/elf half/maia and Beren man; Mithrellas elf, her spouse (whats-his-name) man; Eowyn (royal line of Rohan) and Faramir (steward line, not royal); etc. Are there any instances where the man marries down, as opposed to the reverse?
4. Is there such a thing as love at first sight in ME? We have Thingol enchanted by Melian, Aragorn enchanted by Arwen, Beren by Luthien, Sam by Rosie, etc. But is it possible that love also grows slowly, as opposed to being instantaneous?
5. Sadly, we know that slaves were taken by many peoples in ME at one point or another, not just orcs. What would their slave ships have looked like? Keeping in mind we are talking (if we are to adopt Tolkien's attitude as this being a much earlier world within our own) many thousands of years before the Atlantic slave trade of the 19th century.
6. Does Tolkien contradict himself when it comes to elven mortality and "being forced"? Aredhel and Eol come to mind, and so does Mithrellas (I can't imagine anyone leaving their children behind unless it she was NOT there willingly). This topic does come up some in Tolkien's works, including two of Feanor's sons wanting to take Luthien by force. Did they not know her spirit/fea would leave her body if they tried? If so, it would seem odd that they would continue to pursue it. Or was the "author" of the Silmarillion, et al, just simply trying to gloss over the reality of such an awful crime?
7. I'm not 100% sure about the book (have to read the Dunharrow part again) but do elves actually see the "spirits of the dead" or just sense they're present? I suppose this ties into the idea that elves have a "sixth sense" when it comes to the "spirit/unseen world" vs the seen world. I'm wondering if they can actually see it as you see this post, or if they just sense it with remarkable accuracy.
8. We all know Athelas, aka Kingsfoil, is a powerful healing plant, especially in the hands of a king (I refuse to acknowledge the "Tauriel heals Kili" scene because the way it was carried out was really stupid, IMHO). What other healing herbs do you think ME would have had? I recently read about a plant that grows in the Sinai desert (a very, very desolate place) that has antiseptic qualities, and I also know raw honey (Beorn) is naturally anti-bacterial. What other herbs do you think could heal?
9. Do Simbelmyne (sp?) ONLY grow on the tombs of kings in Rohan, or does it grow elsewhere too?
10. The elves in Mirkwood get Dorwinian wine, which is apparently from a region near Rhun. Does that point to a possible elf colony there that simply isn't mentioned in the stories? Or do you think it was a human settlement? I'm leaning toward a human settlement, but then again we are talking elves and I suppose it's possible there was an elf colony down there. How else would the wine be so potent that the elves would fall asleep from it? Legolas (in the films, not sure if that contest was in the book) barely felt a tingling with a substantial amount of ale in Rohan. Very potent wine indeed!
Anyway, if I think of more random questions that have popped into my head of late, I'll add onto this list :)
I would love to hear your thoughts on these! And if you've got book-proof of some answers, even better! If not, speculation is fun, especially when the boards are slow 
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Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Rohan
Dec 6 2018, 11:27pm
Post #2 of 37
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I believe that Tolkien drew an Elf with a beard
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I can't remember right now which Elf it was - maybe Mablung from the First Age? And I remember there was always a controversy over whether it was just a smudge, but I'm pretty darn sure it's a beard. I would assume that they have body hair too.
I'm not sure whether it's ever explicitly stated that Sam fell in love with Rosie at first sight. I imagine their love to be one that grew slowly. Interesting note about the men always marrying up, and the women down - now that I think about it, that does seem to be very common in Middle-earth. Even Bungo Baggins, an ordinary gentlehobbit, married one of the extraordinary daughters of the Old Took, who was rumored to have an elf in his family history. And Aredhel, whom you mention a little later in your post, married the lowly Dark Elf, Eol.
I do imagine Dorwinion as a settlement of humans, but nothing whatsoever is written about them - and it's within possibility that they are Elves, I suppose. Many Elves never crossed the Anduin in the First Age, and remained in the east.
Those are the only ones I can answer right now off the top of my head - I've not read Unfinished Tales in a while, so that might contain other info that I can't remember.
"Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not hold me back. But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy. Now I have taken my worst wound in this parting, even if I were to go this night straight to the Dark Lord."
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Cirashala
Valinor
Dec 7 2018, 1:25am
Post #3 of 37
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Thanks for contributing! I can't fathom why the boards are so slow of late. Weird.
Are you thinking of Cirdan? I know Tolkien slipped and said he had a beard, but I was unsure about Mablung. I guess this merits another reading of the Silmarillion! 
That is a good point about Sam and Rosie. I got the impression that the story started with infatuation on Sam's part, but you might be right. That might have grown more slowly.
I do wonder- since the love at first sight seems to be concentrated with elves or (in Luthien's case) half-elf half-maia (and in Thingol/Elwe's case, Melian a Maia herself), is it the beauty and grace of the elves that make the men instantly fall in love? That seems to be rather shallow, in a way- if they're falling for them solely on beauty and grace alone. I mean, what would have happened if they were in love on sight and then found out she snores like a chainsaw? Or if her temperament was completely disagreeable? Or if she hates fish and he loves it? Altogether problematic (and why I don't believe in love at first sight. Lust sure, infatuation sure, but not love. Love needs time to grow and mature just like a flower seed needs to be tended and watered to grow to its full beauty). In fact, my novel debunks this idea right from the start and shows what maturing, genuine love looks like
In Aredhel's case, I maintain she was raped by enchantment. I know it sounds bad, and it most assuredly was, but I liken Eol's enchantment of her to be akin to a date rape drug. Sorry for being blunt, but that "well she wasn't wholly unwilling" doesn't necessarily work if she went to him under false pretenses in the first place (said pretenses being Eol's enchantment). That is exactly the same thing as dropping a roofie in a woman's drink, IMHO. So I wouldn't count Aredhel as marrying down- more like Stockholm Syndrome or just plain drugged/enchanted deceitfully.
I guess Dorwinion could go either way :) But if men were able to fashion wine so potent it made elves drowsy, it makes one wonder- just what the heck is in that wine?! Probably knock even the most tolerant of human drinkers straight toward alcohol poisoning with one sip! Which does beg the question- how on earth did teeny little Bilbo not get skunk drunk at least with drinking Thranduil's wine??????
I don't know where my UT copy went- which is annoying me greatly at this point...I keep all my ME-related books together.
My writing and novels:
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You can also find my novel at most major book retailers online (and for those outside the US who prefer a print book, you can find the print version at Book Depository). Search "Amazing Grace Amanda Longpre'" to find it.
Happy reading everyone!
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Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Rohan
Dec 7 2018, 1:44am
Post #4 of 37
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Yeah, I know Cirdan was bearded, but there was another one, I think
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I'm pretty sure it was Mablung, or somebody from the Tale of Turin. I can't remember specifically.
The love at first sight question is an interesting one to ponder - I like to think it's not so much for their physical beauty or grace, but rather…well, it's hard to explain. The thing about falling in love with an Elf is that, like, it feels that these Men are seeing for the first time a person who is utterly, entirely pure and clean and free of all mortal sins, something, a being so permeated with the essence of Eru that it's hard not to fall in love. It's not physical beauty, I think, but something so perfect - that feeling that Aragorn gets when he first sees Arwen and thinks that he has awoken a spirit of elder days from song. That feeling of being in the presence of something so far above you, so much like a living star, a light encased in a human body, that it is all the slow stages of genuine love rolled into one moment - time works differently for the Elves, and for those it affects, I feel. What you mention in your post, about how true love needs time - for the Elves that time is just a moment, a blink in the eye, and I imagine that that's what happens to Men who fall in love with them, that the whole definition of time becomes strange and different, and whole years become just moments. I might be wrong - I don't have any proof to offer! - but that's how it feels like to me. Maybe I'll try to explain it in greater detail in a future post.
I understand completely what you say about Aredhel! No need to be sorry about your word-choice.
As for Dorwinion, the question of what makes their wine so powerful is truly a good one! I'm glad you asked it, but the only answer I can think of is that it was made by Elves.
I try to keep all my ME-books together too, but at the moment I've got some of them scattered around the house. Fall of Gondolin is somewhere upstairs. Unfinished Tales, unfortunately, I don't have a copy of - I need to get one for myself this Christmas!
"Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not hold me back. But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy. Now I have taken my worst wound in this parting, even if I were to go this night straight to the Dark Lord."
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Cirashala
Valinor
Dec 7 2018, 2:09am
Post #5 of 37
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CoH, Fall of Gondolin, etc is all in the one copy of the Silmarillion I have :) I have LOTR paperback (gosh the hardcover is so dang expensive!), TH hardcover, The Atlas of ME by Fonstad hardcover, LOTR weapons and warfare, Visual guide to ROTK, the Letters of JRR Tolkien, UT, and A Guide to Sindarin by David Salo. HOTH and HOME are on my wishlist but if I thought LOTR HC was expensive, HOLY COW!!! O.o
On a side thought- maybe I borrowed UT from my brother in law....darn it. Oh well. It's now on my wish list too...
Your explanation makes sense :) They're drawn to the light that is in the eyes of the Eldar. Though I believe that light can be in one of the human race if they choose to embrace the beauty of the world Eru created. The problem is that most of them do not allow themselves to be truly free to do so. They worry about so many things and are weary with the toll that their world wrought upon them that they don't appreciate the beauty around them. So when they are confronted by that beauty, they are drawn to it as a dying man is drawn to water in the desert. I believe it's that light within them that draws them. Whether that equates to love or not, I don't know. Perhaps Tolkien's ideas about humanity eventually having a small part of elf in them is that light and appreciation for the natural, unblemished world around them and the orc side of humanity is the darkness that can also reign if one allows the light within them to fade into obscurity.
I try to be sensitive about that particular word because, as a childhood abuse survivor myself (though thankfully not that far), I know that it can affect others who have suffered. At the same time, it's really difficult to get the meaning across without using the actual word, so it becomes a matter of discernment anytime I use it.
That's the only explanation I can think of- unless they lace it with crack or something  It seems to me that something greater than mere distillery and fermentation would end up with such a strong wine.
This sounds odd, but I ran out of space on my bookshelf so I have all the ME books on the bathroom over-the-toilet cabinet shelf...lack of bookshelves is a rough state indeed when one is an avid reader (though admittedly at least half of our books are textbooks from college, my sketch books, gardening, farming and construction, etc. We really need to go through them). But decent not-going-to-fall-apart-like-the-walmart-ones-did bookshelves are spendy. We plan on building our own but the wood isn't cheap either.
My writing and novels:
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My historical novels ebook version compatible with all ereaders
You can also find my novel at most major book retailers online (and for those outside the US who prefer a print book, you can find the print version at Book Depository). Search "Amazing Grace Amanda Longpre'" to find it.
Happy reading everyone!
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Cirashala
Valinor
Dec 7 2018, 2:58am
Post #6 of 37
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Elven endurance. We know elves can drown (Amroth) and that they can die of starvation and thirst (Dior's sons). They can be slain as well, though they can survive wounds that would be fatal to men. We know Legolas at least can run for three days straight without stopping (though he still remarks on the uruks' speed, leading to the suggestion that he was at his maximum capacity as well and tiring. However, could that have been influenced by Saruman in some way?). But as elves still can sleep (though Tolkien suggests he can sleepwalk-er, run...), surely there's a point where even an elf can reach exhaustion.
So how hardy are the elves? How much could an elf take before succumbing to drowning in a rough sea, starvation, thirst, wounds, exhaustion, etc?
And I know elves aren't as temperature sensitive (dwarves too, I think, though not as much as elves) as mortals, but given that they have cloaks and such, surely there comes a point where even they get hot or cold?
It would seem to me that, though elves and men are different, biologically they're one race (else Aragorn wouldn't exist, for starters), so while an elf can endure more than a mortal, surely even elven endurance has its limits?
My writing and novels:
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You can also find my novel at most major book retailers online (and for those outside the US who prefer a print book, you can find the print version at Book Depository). Search "Amazing Grace Amanda Longpre'" to find it.
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Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Rohan
Dec 7 2018, 11:49pm
Post #7 of 37
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Haha, the over-the-toilet cabinet shelf is as good a place as any!
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And you've actually got a head-start over me - I've not got the Atlas of ME (I had it once, but lost it), I've not got a lot of the film companion books, and I don't have Letters or A Guide to Sindarin! 
I'm glad that my explanation made a sort of sense - I don't know whether it equates to love, or whether it's something that is higher, purer, more free and everlasting than anything we mere mortals can comprehend. For Elves, love seems to be mainly spiritual, rather than physical. I love your explanation, about how humans have two sides to them - the "inner elf" so to speak, that comes out when you find yourself in a transcendent moment of extreme faith and joy, and the "inner orc" that reigns when all lights go out.
As for the wine, yeah, I'd have to assume it's got an ingredient of magic!
"Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not hold me back. But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy. Now I have taken my worst wound in this parting, even if I were to go this night straight to the Dark Lord."
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Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Rohan
Dec 7 2018, 11:59pm
Post #8 of 37
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I know that Legolas does indeed comment that some enchantment of Saruman's was preventing the Three Hunters from catching up with the Uruk-Hai. But how far he could have gone, running endlessly night and day, is hard to say. Maybe incredible speed/endurance is one of their talents, but I do wonder how long they can endure actual wounds and exhaustion. Felagund survived in the dungeons of Sauron for weeks, I believe, and even at the end of his strength was still able to wrestle a werewolf bare-handed and kill it - and that was after he had faced down Sauron himself and challenged him in a contest of magics. They are clearly incredibly hardy creatures. The Noldor (or, some of them) survived the crossing of the Helcaraxe, too, which was an incredible feat. And Earendil was able to carry the Silmaril on his brow - that may have been due to his spiritual purity, I can't remember. Because I know it burned the flesh of the wolf of Angband, and also the hand of Maedhros, who were both flawed creatures, to put it lightly. And if you go by Tolkien's early writings, then you'll also find an elderly elf who was able to survive on the Moon without any food or water! - no kidding.
"Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not hold me back. But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy. Now I have taken my worst wound in this parting, even if I were to go this night straight to the Dark Lord."
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Cirashala
Valinor
Dec 8 2018, 7:06pm
Post #9 of 37
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Another question...I know, my mind is crazy sometimes...
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Ar-Pharazon took Miriel to wife by force- and it is tragic. Eol and Aredhel is another example- an enchantment, a spell if you will, was cast on her by Eol and he took her to wife. One can plausibly argue Mithrellas was also taken against her will, as she ran off and left her husband and children behind (I can't imagine anything short of forced, traumatic captivity would lead any woman, an elf woman no less, to abandon her children).
Why is it that Tolkien seems to make his forced characters- Miriel, Aredhel, Mithrellas, and possibly others I don't remember- always bound by marriage, even if it's forced? I understand the CAPTORS wanting this, because then it gives their potential bloodline legitimacy, but why is it treated as marriage and not plain abduction? By treating it as marriage, or seemingly legitimizing the rapes as being under the umbrella of matrimony, it basically forces the women in question to stay married to their captors (with exception to Mithrellas but Tolkien makes a point that she ran away).
It seems rather odd to me. Does rape automatically mean one is married to the other in ME, even if said act was against her will? Since marriage is treated, at least by elves, as being incapable of divorce (Finwe being the rare singular exception), that dooms these poor women to a lifetime of being with a rapist, essentially 
I get the rather antiquated idea of rape leaving a woman "tainted" and the child (if one is conceived during said act) an illegitimate child, but to condemn the women to a lifetime of being assaulted? That seems unusually cruel even for Tolkien, don't you think?
Or was that the point in the above three cases?
My writing and novels:
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You can also find my novel at most major book retailers online (and for those outside the US who prefer a print book, you can find the print version at Book Depository). Search "Amazing Grace Amanda Longpre'" to find it.
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Asger
Rivendell
Dec 9 2018, 2:36pm
Post #10 of 37
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Morgoth, Sauron, Orc-tribes and evil men had slaves, surely, but none of them were oceanic at least in the western lands, so they did’nt need ships in their slave-trade
"Don't take life seriously, it ain't nohow permanent!" Pogo
www.willy-centret.dk
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Asger
Rivendell
Dec 9 2018, 2:56pm
Post #11 of 37
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Also grew elsewhere on Rohan, Lebennin and probably most of Gondor and surroundings. Mostly on graves it is mentioned. In modern terms one would say it needed loosened soil and high nitrogen/calcium, but I don’t think Tolkien would have thought about that
"Don't take life seriously, it ain't nohow permanent!" Pogo
www.willy-centret.dk
(This post was edited by Asger on Dec 9 2018, 2:58pm)
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Cirashala
Valinor
Dec 10 2018, 12:43am
Post #12 of 37
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that makes perfect sense re nitrogen and calcium- two things that decomposing bodies contain in abundance. Manure, especially chicken manure, is also very high in nitrogen and many plants require high calcium and nitrogen content.
I imagine so- Tolkien was a linguist, not a horticulturist I figured it might be bound to more graves than anything, but I wasn't sure.
My writing and novels:
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My historical novels ebook version compatible with all ereaders
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hanne
Lorien
Dec 10 2018, 7:16pm
Post #14 of 37
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Thanks for all the fun questions - I hope it is helping you to have things to think about and am still wishing for your good health. Hope things get better!
About the marrying up and down thing, some depends on how you define up and down (if Galadriel married down by marrying a Sindarin noble, did Finarfin also marry down by marrying a Teleran princess?), but there are some potential cases I can think of: Elros, Arathorn II, Meriadoc.
The argument rests on how royal families are defined, but anyway, here goes. Elros, first King of Numenor, presumably married a Dunedain woman who couldn't possibly have been royalty since the royalty had only just been created and Elros was the only royal. Similarly, would you consider Aragorn's father to have married down since he was an heir of Isildur and Gilraen's family was not in the direct line? Did Merry marry down since he was the Master of Buckland and his wife was a Bolger?
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hanne
Lorien
Dec 10 2018, 7:19pm
Post #15 of 37
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Depending on what you think pipeweed is, :) it may have been used for healing. If its Nicotiana: Columbus observed it used in Cuba as a disinfectant and Vespucci saw it used in Venezuela as a toothpaste. People in Brazil used it to treat sores, and in Mexico to treat headache and pain. Fascinating article here. If Cannabis, well of course it is a known pain reliever today. Middle Earth pipeweed is soothing at least!
Thyme, which grew in Ithilien, could be another candidate. Apparently, Thymus is a natural antibacterial. Source.
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Cirashala
Valinor
Dec 10 2018, 11:06pm
Post #16 of 37
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but those are few and far between, it seems, when it comes to any prominent marriage in Tolkien's world. Most of the time, the women marry down and the men marry up.
Elros does bring on another question though...did he (and Arwen, and Luthien) have to give up their pointy ears when they chose the life of a mortal? Or did they still remain fair (and with elvish ears) and in general elvish-looking, even though they were now subject to the elongated but mortal lifespan of men? Did they begin to age physically as mortals do, or not? I do wonder just how much "grace of the Eldar" left them, and what remained. Obviously in the films Arwen remained as beautiful as she was before, even until Aragorn died and then her grace seemed visually only diminished by her grief/sadness. I am curious if Tolkien says anything other than "grace diminishes" and if not, what do you and others think?
My writing and novels:
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Cirashala
Valinor
Dec 10 2018, 11:10pm
Post #17 of 37
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Pretty sure Tolkien meant of the genus nicotiana ;)
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He does say the hobbits were the first to smoke it, but that certainly doesn't preclude the idea that it could have been used in other ways prior to that.
That's good to know about thyme! Do you know if there's a difference between wild thyme and cultivated thyme? And could you possibly provide where it says that thyme grew in Ithilien? I'm quite curious to know :) It would be much appreciated!
Do you have any thoughts on any of the other questions by chance?
My writing and novels:
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My historical novels ebook version compatible with all ereaders
You can also find my novel at most major book retailers online (and for those outside the US who prefer a print book, you can find the print version at Book Depository). Search "Amazing Grace Amanda Longpre'" to find it.
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hanne
Lorien
Dec 11 2018, 6:04pm
Post #18 of 37
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It's just funny how that word has changed :)
I didn't even know there was a difference between wild and cultivated thyme! Lesson for the day.
It's mentioned as one of the Herbs that went into the Stewed Rabbit (so it's in the Two Towers, Book IV Chapter IV) in Ithilien, the Garden of Gondor:
Many great trees grew there, planted long ago, falling into untended age amid a riot of careless descendants; and groves and thickets there were of tamarisk and pungent terebinth, of olive and of bay; and there were junipers and myrtles; and thymes that grew in bushes, or with their woody creeping stems mantled in deep tapestries the hidden stones; sages of many kinds putting forth blue flowers, or red, or pale green; and marjorams and new-sprouting parsleys, and many herbs of forms and scents beyond the garden-lore of Sam.
I'm sure that that list, and the flowers mentioned in the next sentence (saxifrages, stonecrops, primeroles, anenomes, asphodels, lilies) probably include many with traditional medicinal uses.
You might enjoy browsing the classic work A Modern Herbal (published 1931) which lists the traditional uses of many English plants. I wonder if Tolkien had a copy? Re thyme, she says "Garden Thyme" is an antiseptic and was used for whooping cough. And she says "Wild Thyme" was considered to have the same properties but less strong.
(I'm afraid I have no knowledge or even speculation on your other questions, but I think the board has covered most of them - amazing people here!)
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hanne
Lorien
Dec 11 2018, 6:27pm
Post #19 of 37
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Oh! Adding squire's amazing resource
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I couldn't find it before but just found it now - our own squire pulled together some information on all the plants in that passage.
What I really like is that he also included the mythic dimension, which is something you don't want to forget when considering healing in Middle Earth. So, for instance, still using thyme as the example, he found that the ancients linked it with courage and putting venomous creatures to flight. I can't help noticing that after eating his rabbit stewed with thyme Sam went on to face Shelob and put her to flight... :)
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Cirashala
Valinor
Dec 15 2018, 6:09pm
Post #21 of 37
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I know elves can be slain, but supposing they survive the initial wounding, they heal rather quickly (hence why they can survive wounds that would be fatal to men. I'm thinking this phrase meant they wouldn't get infected?).
But do you think the wounds are still very painful? Do elves feel pain from wounds the same as men do, do you think?
And I know elves can walk on top of snow- do you think they can do the same over sand? Or mud?
My writing and novels:
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You can also find my novel at most major book retailers online (and for those outside the US who prefer a print book, you can find the print version at Book Depository). Search "Amazing Grace Amanda Longpre'" to find it.
Happy reading everyone!
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Dec 18 2018, 5:21pm
Post #22 of 37
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I don't think a bearded Cirdan was an inconsistent slip. In any case, Cirdan's beard was not revised for the Second Edition, and for me it must stand as canon.
In my opinion, here is Tolkien's "best" note on the matter, since it can explain Cirdan (and other bearded Elves) while keeping the general image of beardless Elves:
"Elves did not have beards until they entered their third cycle of life. Nerdanel's father ( . . .) was exceptional. being only early in his second." JRRT, Vinyar Tengwar 41, a note dating to 1968 or later
While the cycles are not explained, this statement can still serve in my opinion.
A very late note . . . but "all"?
"In a note written in December 1972 or later, and among the last writings of my father's on the subject of Middle-earth, there is a discussion of the Elvish strain in Men, as to its being observable in the beardlessness of those who were so descended (it was a characteristic of all Elves to be beardless); and it is here noted in connection with the princely house of Dol Amroth that 'this line had a special Elvish strain, according to its own legends' (...)."
This late passage (Unfinished Tales) seems to generally say that Elves had no beards, but perhaps Tolkien did not intend this passage to mean "all Elves at all times" -- unless he had forgotten Círdan perhaps.
Possibly JRRT was thinking that since Elves (as it seems to be suggested I think) take very many years to have beards (if desired I assume, and if JRRT's note above about the cycles is still in play) - years far longer than the lives of Men -- then his point about Men is really the focus in any case. In other words, if the trait kicks in after thousands of years, well, even the Men of Dol Amroth don't live that long anyway.
I guess one could argue that the trait should kick in, in Men, in a relative way -- or again, simply disregard "all" as a poor word choice in light of Cirdan's canonical beard.
Beleg
The illustration of Beleg as bearded was made in the 1920s if I recall correctly. If so, quite early.
Hammond and Scull seem certain that Beleg is bearded, or at least they describe him as bearded with no difficulty. The picture was later used for a calendar however, with Tolkien's consent, and with a new title in the artist's hand: Fangorn forest!
So it seems possible, at least, that JRRT no longer imagined these figures as Elves at all -- though perhaps it's more likely that he just thought the figures small enough within the painting to get away with this change, unexplained.
In any case, if the figure "remained" Beleg, I tend to doubt that Beleg remained bearded, for despite that we don't know how long an Elven-cycle is supposed to be, Tolkien's later note makes me at least wonder if he thought Beleg, and Elf of the First Age, had reached his third cycle of life.
(This post was edited by Elthir on Dec 18 2018, 5:31pm)
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Dec 18 2018, 5:40pm
Post #23 of 37
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Elthir said: "In any case, if the figure "remained" Beleg, I tend to doubt that Beleg remained bearded, . . ."
That makes no sense to me. I should simply say rather, that I tend to doubt Beleg "remained" bearded with respect the conception found in the brief, 1968 or later Vinyar Tengwar note.
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Cirashala
Valinor
Dec 18 2018, 5:53pm
Post #24 of 37
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Do you know if Cirdan was born at Cuvienen? I'd be curious to know just how old he was. But doesn't the third cycle of life contradict Tolkien's writing in the Sil about how elves stop aging when they achieve their full height and are fully grown?
Also, I tried but couldn't find the Beleg illustration. I'd be curious to see it
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Dec 18 2018, 7:29pm
Post #25 of 37
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Do you know if Cirdan was born at Cuvienen?
I don't know of any direct statement about his birth. There is this much anyway (I can't recall the exact source at the moment):
"Before ever they came to Beleriand the Teleri had developed a craft of boat-making; first as rafts, and soon as light boats with paddles made in imitation of the water-birds upon the lakes near their first homes, and later on the Great Journey in crossing rivers, or especially during their long tarrying on the shores of the "Sea of Rhun", where their ships became larger and stronger. But in all this work Cirdan had ever been the foremost and most inventive and skilful."
But doesn't the third cycle of life contradict Tolkien's writing in the Sil about how elves stop aging when they achieve their full height and are fully grown?
Hmm. Well, Tolkien himself never published any details about how Elves age, so if there's contradiction, it could be due to changing ideas. That said, I recall Tolkien noting that after a given age (the details about what age can be confusing), the Eldar attain the stature and shape in which their lives would afterwards endure, adding:
"It may be thought that, since the Eldar do not (as Men deem) grow old in body, they may bring forth children at any time in the ages of their lives. But this is not so. For the Eldar do indeed grow older, even if slowly . . ."
Yet this paragraph goes on to talk about the weight of the years gathering upon the spirits of the Eldar, with all their changes of desire and thought, and thus "so do the impulses and moods of their bodies change" -- and next, Tolkien goes on about bodily fading.
So they do "age" even in the body, even if it's not easily seen in the adult shape that was attained.
Young Men can grow beards, but if we call this a function of ageing because of the cycles description, for myself I think it's pushing Tolkien a little too hard here with respect to contradiction -- fading could also be said to be a function of age too, for example -- and with fading, in my opinion, the body grows invisible, not older looking. A beard makes an Elf look different, possibly even older, but a beard itself need not alter the same basic form of the body "underneath", so too speak.
My "quibble" with Tolkien does not concern Cirdan's beard, but rather (I say), Cirdan "should" not look older otherwise (outside of some poetic description of eyes, for example).
But that quibbled, I admit, the author-published description appears to be that Cirdan looked old, even beyond having a long beard.
Also, I tried but couldn't find the Beleg illustration. I'd be curious to see it
It might be a copyright thing with respect to the web?
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