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Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Rohan
Dec 3 2018, 10:53pm
Post #2 of 42
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She was wounded by orcs, I believe
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While crossing the Misty Mountains on a journey to Lorien, she and her entourage were waylaid by orcs, and she was taken captive. Her sons Elladan and Elrohir eventually rescued her from torment, but her wounds were too great for even Elrond to heal. She left Middle-earth in grief and pain, unable to bear what seems to be a form of emotional trauma. Her story is incredibly touching, in my opinion, and I've always been interested in how difficult it must have been for her to make that decision, to leave her family behind.
"Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not hold me back. But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy. Now I have taken my worst wound in this parting, even if I were to go this night straight to the Dark Lord."
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Cirashala
Valinor
Dec 3 2018, 11:06pm
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PTSD would be expected in that situation
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But I do find it interesting that Elrond was, more or less, able to heal Frodo from the effects of a Morgul Blade wielded by the Witch-king (a Ringwraith), and yet he could not heal his wife from orc-wounds?
I am wondering if they did more than just beat her up  But then you have references by Tolkien that says that an elf cannot be forced or they will die, and yet Celebrian was still alive and able to be rescued, which seemingly contradicts that possibility.
I can imagine being an orc captive would be very traumatizing, to say the least. I have no doubt that she was tortured for mere "sport" by them. But it seems strange to me that Elrond could not heal wounds that were no doubt less severe than a Morgul-wound.
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Dec 4 2018, 12:18am
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Not even Frodo was entirely healed.
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He had black moments on certain days, including the day he was stabbed by the Morgul blade, while he remained in Middle-earth. Imagine how much worse the lingering effects must have been for Celebrian, given that she had been held by the Orcs for a while.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
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Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Rohan
Dec 4 2018, 12:48am
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I don't even want to imagine what the orcs did to her
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But I feel that it was probably emotional wounds, rather than physical, that drove her to leave Middle-earth.
"Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not hold me back. But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy. Now I have taken my worst wound in this parting, even if I were to go this night straight to the Dark Lord."
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Cirashala
Valinor
Dec 4 2018, 12:57am
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and is quite likely.
I do wonder if her being unable to leave her physical body during her captivity as a result of what the orcs did to her is at odds with what Tolkien writes about elves or not. ie- if she was so tormented that she had severe PTSD, I thought that elves could, in those cases, forsake their bodies (hroa) so that their fea (souls) were released to go to the Halls of Mandos and thus provide an escape out of a perilous or psychologically-damaging scenario.
Is there any basis in Tolkien's writings to confirm this idea? Please keep in mind that I don't have access to a lot of the books many on here do simply because we're on a single income and I can't afford them I have LOTR, TH, The Sil, Letters (though admittedly I use it more as reference I don't think I've actually read all of them as one would read a book), The Atlas of ME and a few movie guides/go alongs (Weapons and Warfare, etc).
I don't have HOME, etc. I am wondering if someone who does have access to these volumes or other tertiary work by Tolkien (ie not what I have) about this idea that elves will abandon their hroa in times of severe psychological distress (such as during a rape, I believe, is the section Tolkien wrote that my exhausted brain seems to be recalling), and if so could they quote it?
And if she wasn't assaulted that way (which, honestly, I think unlikely. Female prisoners don't tend to fare well in captivity by truly evil persons/beings unless there's some sort of superstition held), then is that why her fea didn't depart from her hroa and she was thus still subject to the torment, and the resultant psychological distress that it caused?
In that case, if her fea did NOT, in fact, depart her hroa due to psychological or even physical torment, then her leaving ME via a ship is MORE than justified, I think, so that she could obtain mental healing as well as physical.
(A note to the mods- if you feel that my verbiage on the subject needs to lean more g-rated due to sensitivity, I completely understand. It's just that I feel using actual concise words when it comes to assault is imperative because I'm a victim of childhood abuse and one of my high school friends was full on trafficked into the "lady" side of the trade and I do not want to do real victims injustice by calling it something other than what it is. However, I ALSO understand the PTSD and triggers that result from such experiences (my friend doesn't have any contact with anyone in her family or friends anymore at ALL after it) so if you feel the need to change my word to something less triggering, feel free to do so).
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Happy reading everyone!
(This post was edited by Cirashala on Dec 4 2018, 1:00am)
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uncle Iorlas
Rohan
Dec 8 2018, 3:48am
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An enormous story of which we have only a couple footnotes.
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I've thought about this a lot and written about it elsewhere on here. I agree that in the professor's chaste and circumspect way, he seems likely to have been implying a violation--what would be orkier?--although I was also thinking a disfigurement would be a reasonable, and comparable, interpretation (not mutually exclusive anyhow). Certainly it seemed that a melancholy, such as we might call ptsd, was more the final issue than physical injury. A deep weariness of the world or despair.
And that Elrond couldn't heal her seems so momentous to every member of the family. He, who ages before had already chosen to remain in this world at the cost of dividing his family, chooses the same again even as she makes the voyage. When Arwen chooses her mortal man, she is forsaking a reunion long expected. When Elrond finally takes ship, he ends a long separation they must both have felt all that time. I rather imagine that all this is why Elrond, though leader of a merry, playful people, smiles rarely and laughs never, in the third age. Was he just as jovial as any other elf, back in the second?
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Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Rohan
Dec 8 2018, 3:57pm
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I've thought a lot about Celebrian too!
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And I agree with what you say about her. I seem to recall that, in the storyline you pitched to Amazon, you gave Celebrian a significant role - or am I mistaken? I feel like she's critical to the story of Elrond; if she had appeared in a flashback in the LotR films, it would have made Elrond much more sympathetic to me, and would have served to illustrate the passing into the West. My 6-film screenplay includes her in this fashion.
"Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not hold me back. But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy. Now I have taken my worst wound in this parting, even if I were to go this night straight to the Dark Lord."
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Chen G.
Gondor
Dec 9 2018, 11:02am
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I agree that in the professor's chaste and circumspect way, he seems likely to have been implying a violation,
Is he?
I never read too much into Celebrian's capture. I think that, when Tolkien wanted to hint at more mature content, he knew how to do it much less cryptically.
Think about Morgoth's lust for Luthien, or the emasculation of Gwindor. In those examples, Tolkien is circumspecting the subject, but his intention isn't so hard to grasp.
(This post was edited by Chen G. on Dec 9 2018, 11:02am)
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squire
Half-elven
Dec 9 2018, 1:58pm
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"their mother's torment in the dens of the orcs"
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That is the defining phrase for what happened to Celebrian, I think, because it appears in the primary narrative of Lord of the Rings (II.1), not in the appendices or other ephemera.
I can't think of a single cultural convention from Tolkien's era (not to even speak of our own) that doesn't support the axiom that when an upper class woman is held captive and tortured by low-life criminals, she is violated sexually. One doesn't have to say anything more than Tolkien does. The context tells it all.
Class, of course, is just the icing on the cake when it comes to how men have 'tormented' imprisoned women throughout history, but it's certainly present here. The passage explicitly links Elladan's and Elrohir's life-long mission of revenge with "errantry", the chivalric ideal that defined the old world aristocracy that Tolkien embraces in his romance.
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Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Rohan
Dec 9 2018, 4:52pm
Post #11 of 42
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As a random thought of the day…
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Today in the car, I was listening to "I Don't Wanna Live Forever" by Zayn, featuring Taylor Swift, and thought to myself how perfectly it would work as an Elrond & Celebrian song.
"Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not hold me back. But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy. Now I have taken my worst wound in this parting, even if I were to go this night straight to the Dark Lord."
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Cirashala
Valinor
Dec 10 2018, 12:47am
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but the style seems hardly Middle-earthen to me lol 
Check out Celtic Woman's "My Lagan Love". When I hear that, I envision an elf maid dancing under the light of the moon and stars- makes me think of Luthien and those first moments when Beren saw her  Sounds INCREDIBLY elvish too- I think such a sound and song would fit in very, very well with Tolkien's elves in ME.
(And oh my goodness the girl's pipes! Celtic Woman ladies are incredibly talented! Many of their other songs also sound very Middle-earth like, IMHO). I can easily see Nil Sen La for dwarves, and Green the Whole Year Round as being quite elvish too, same with The Moon's a Harsh Mistress.
My writing and novels:
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My historical novels ebook version compatible with all ereaders
You can also find my novel at most major book retailers online (and for those outside the US who prefer a print book, you can find the print version at Book Depository). Search "Amazing Grace Amanda Longpre'" to find it.
Happy reading everyone!
(This post was edited by Cirashala on Dec 10 2018, 12:48am)
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Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Rohan
Dec 10 2018, 1:40am
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Celtic and new age music is just beautiful! I listened to even just a little bit and I fell in love with that incredible sound - I'll listen to it in full later. I've always loved music like this; Enya is one of my favorites of course, but I listen to a new age channel that plays newer, less well-known artists who are very talented, with lots of Elvish soundscapes. And Celtic music is the best; so beautiful and haunting, with the pipes and incredible vocals!
"Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not hold me back. But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy. Now I have taken my worst wound in this parting, even if I were to go this night straight to the Dark Lord."
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uncle Iorlas
Rohan
Dec 10 2018, 5:19am
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I was thinking about soundtrack a while back.
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Wrapping elves in Celtic music seemed like an easy and natural choice, somehow, and by the same token kind of threatening to become cliche. I went looking for other models and spent a lot of time imagining elvish styles--that is to say, for some use in backing music in scenes about elves, but also an approach to representing their own musical traditions--drawing on Scandinavian folk. Tricky, because so much of that is either dowdy country dances or explicitly churchy, but there's some moving material in there if you go drilling. I was never a hundred percent convinced but I do think it would be a little more true to the author's conception of them than borrowing Irish mystique.
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Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Rohan
Dec 10 2018, 2:37pm
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There's a Swedish or Norwegian singer I like
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I think her name is Aurora Aknes, (I might be mangling that last name, but I know she goes by Aurora). She's got a New Age style, and her music is really quite good.
"Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not hold me back. But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy. Now I have taken my worst wound in this parting, even if I were to go this night straight to the Dark Lord."
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Dec 17 2018, 7:16pm
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That said, we know Elves could, and did, die by will, "as, for example because of great grief or bereavement, or because of the frustration of their dominant desires and purposes."
And in Customs A -- though admittedly seemingly not taken up in Customs B -- we read that there is no record of any among the Elves that took another's spouse by force, and an Elf "so forced would have rejected bodily life and passed to Mandos."
And given the link between elven marriage and sexual intercourse . . .
Granted, none of this was published by Tolkien compared to the brief description of Celebrian's ordeal already noted, but it seems a generally accepted notion that Elves can die of grief . . . and think about (or actually don't think about) the horror of being forced sexually by anyone, and even one Orc!
On the other hand, we can't know Celebrian's mind/will/hope during her captivity, including with respect to the possibility of physical violation.
You make good points.
We know that Celebrian survived, and then chose to sail to Aman after being free, so the scar must have been great I think, but for myself, I'm not yet ready to interpret physical rape as a given here.
(This post was edited by Elthir on Dec 17 2018, 7:23pm)
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Cirashala
Valinor
Dec 17 2018, 8:11pm
Post #17 of 42
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that Celebrian forced herself to endure so she could say goodbye to her children before sailing? Since the choice of the Peredhil lay upon all three of them, she must have known there was a very real possibility that they may choose a mortal life (especially Arwen, her only daughter), and hence if her spirit/fea went directly to Mandos she would truly never see them again.
I think that could be compelling enough and that desire strong enough that she may have forced herself to remain in her hroa and endure even the most awful of violations and grief at the hands of the orcs. That would definitely explain her desire to sail and the psychological and possibly physical scarring after being freed by her sons, and yet also explain her ability to still remain in ME despite the very real possibility that she was raped during her captivity. I think it incredibly unlikely that she wasn't, unfortunately
We also know, per Tolkien's ideas, that the Silmarillion was written by elves, and one could also deduce that perhaps, while there was no record of adultery between a married elf and another, it doesn't preclude the possibility that assault may have happened. We know that two of Feanor's sons had a mind to take Luthien to wife by force- if an elf would leave her body before being forced to consummate the marriage, then why would they do that? They undoubtedly would have known, or it's likely they would have known, it wouldn't work- so why try? Unless they didn't know...but would they have known?
The elves may have simply found it to abhorrent, too heinous of an act to be written about, and deliberately omitted it from their histories. But if the idea that orcs originally came from elves, and I believe it was written somewhere that they were forced with each other and mutilated by Morgoth to become orcs, then it would stand that the statement in LACE was not accurate, and though grievous (and not precluding an elf dying by grief afterwards), the offense could take place while the victim was alive, and only afterward they died of grief.
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Dec 17 2018, 9:27pm
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. . . and that's part of why I'm not ready to interpret the brief, author-published account, "as a given" with respect to rape. And Orcs hailing, in origin, from Elves, is a very misty matter in itself. In my head canon Orcs hail from Men, based on certain late texts . . . but that's a debate for other threads I guess.
Anyway, it's certainly possible Celebrian kept up hope to see her family and friends, as you say. Another question is, how long did this all take?
" . . . she was seized and carried off. She was pursued and rescued by Elladan and Elrohir, but not before she had suffered torment and had received a poisoned wound."
Do we know that Elladan and Elrohir were not with her, part of the escort that was at first scattered by the sudden assault of the Orcs -- who were then, basically, on the run with their captive until reaching their dens?
Celebrian may have been held in the Orc's dens relatively briefly (even if so, it probably wouldn't seem brief to her), already sick from poison, not given food or water, and tormented mentally by incessant threats that once her pursuers were dealt with, they would "deal" with her . . . or lies that her sons had been slain and eaten . . .
. . . or something. Or . . . something else
(This post was edited by Elthir on Dec 17 2018, 9:33pm)
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Cirashala
Valinor
Dec 17 2018, 11:40pm
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which is why there are many facets of Tolkien that must be based on speculation. I quite believe that had the professor been immortal himself, he'd STILL be working on his story 1,000 years from now and still debating on the origins of orcs and whether or not elves had beards and Galadriel would have about a million different backstories 
Do go ahead and start that "discussion for another time"! The boards have been very slow of late, and I feel a bit like I'm hogging some of the boards (not trying to; few others seem to want to post of late). I would love to glean more on a whole slew of topics, especially from those who have other materials (HOME, etc) that I don't have due to lack of funds
My writing and novels:
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You can also find my novel at most major book retailers online (and for those outside the US who prefer a print book, you can find the print version at Book Depository). Search "Amazing Grace Amanda Longpre'" to find it.
Happy reading everyone!
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Dec 18 2018, 1:58am
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Ach! I was so long-winded in my earlier days! But here's a bit that I don't think I babbled on about in that thread.
Christopher Tolkien explains that Orcs bred from Men (Myths Transformed, text X) may appear to be his father's final view on the matter . . .
. . . then he points to some late notes that "might" muddy the waters again, notes that I don't think necessarily do muddy the waters . . . but I can see his point in raising them . . .
. . . and then there's the "late" narrative belonging to the "final period of my father's writings on Middle-earth" where we find Author's note 5 to The Druedain, wherein the Eldar said that " . . . doubtless Morgoth, since he can make no living thing, bred Orcs from various kinds of Men,..."
Which leads me to believe that the late notes don't muddy the waters, at least with respect to the largre question of what stock Morgoth used. Of course, here again one might say: okay, but maybe that's just what the Eldar say . . .
. . . but in the older "Orcs from Elves" scenario, we had the Wise of Eressea believing Orcs were made from Elves. So this seems a notable switch to me, from an in-story perspective.
In the end, Tolkien may have given readers an in-story "answer" from one or multiples perspectives, but I do think that late in life, Tolkien considered The Silmarillion to be a largely Mannish work (which again could spark a whole thread of its own).
Hmm. I might still have to work on my summation skills!
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Dec 18 2018, 2:21am
Post #23 of 42
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The Road Goes Ever On is key to the throne of Scotland.
Hmm. I just watched Braveheart again and I'm confusing matters!
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uncle Iorlas
Rohan
Dec 18 2018, 11:10pm
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Interesting point on Feanor's sons
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In the end, though, our dear professor simply was not all that consistent. And importantly, consistency was nit the impulse that led him to his most moving work. In fact in its name he often squandered or distorted good bits written earlier. The stories are at their best when the readers, and the author, are willing to shrug a bit at the mystery of it all.
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