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lurtz2010
Rohan

Dec 10 2018, 1:02am

Post #126 of 225 (3075 views)
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     Did you not bother with The Hobbit 2 and 3? [In reply to]  

Just wondering from your post.


squire
Half-elven


Dec 10 2018, 1:21am

Post #127 of 225 (3084 views)
Shortcut
     No, no [In reply to]  

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Rohan

Dec 10 2018, 1:51am

Post #128 of 225 (3056 views)
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     OK, back on track! Thank you for the reminder! [In reply to]  

*what, did you not like the rambling conversation about Wonder Woman's mini-skirt?* Laugh

"Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not hold me back. But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy. Now I have taken my worst wound in this parting, even if I were to go this night straight to the Dark Lord."


squire
Half-elven


Dec 10 2018, 1:59am

Post #129 of 225 (3055 views)
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     I actually went to the first Wonder Woman movie. [In reply to]  

And I tend to agree that the filmmakers achieved an exquisite balance between the girl-power ethos of Wonder Woman, and the sexploitation that is practically required of all female superheroes. The outfit was distinctly more tasteful than WW's traditional comic-book garb.

BUT

How does that relate to the female characters - if any! - that we might anticipate Amazon inventing for this upcoming pre-LotR series? Arwen remains a stay-at-home ... or at least, she darn well better. Then there's Queen Beruthiel. Ah - could we imagine a steamy, doomed, satanic, vaguely kinky relationship between young Aragorn and Middle-earth's most qualified Witch? From which he rebounds, a sadder but wiser young God-king? And would Beruthiel wear a miniskirt or one of those Queen-of-the-Night flowing black robe-kits that always seem to feature stars glowing on the blackness of the shadowy billows of fabric?



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Rohan

Dec 10 2018, 2:03am

Post #130 of 225 (3051 views)
Shortcut
     Haha, yeah, it probably doesn't relate…at all… [In reply to]  

But I don't know if Arwen could be classified as a stay-at-home when she was being shuffled between Rivendell and Lorien every few years, it seems!

*the outfit was much more tasteful, I agree; it looked like armor, rather than that sort of painted-on leather that so many female superheroes wear*

"Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not hold me back. But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy. Now I have taken my worst wound in this parting, even if I were to go this night straight to the Dark Lord."


lurtz2010
Rohan

Dec 10 2018, 2:05am

Post #131 of 225 (3058 views)
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     What was so wrong with AUJ? [In reply to]  

As a Tolkien fan wouldn’t you be curious enough to atleast give the next films a go? You’ll probably think life’s too short to waste time watching something you know will disappoint you but I’d say life’s too short to be so stubborn and not give something a chance. You only live once so as I said, as a Tolkien fan why not just soak it all up while it’s there? And for all you know the other films could be the best things you’ve ever seen. Of course they wouldn’t be but I’m making a point.

It’s like how I’m not a fan of these new Fantastic Beast movies from the Potterverse but I’ll sure as hell see every movie they put out because I’m interested in that world. Why not?


Furcorn
The Shire

Dec 10 2018, 2:11am

Post #132 of 225 (3037 views)
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     I'm not a purist [In reply to]  

I'm not a Tolkien purist, so my disappointment with PJ and The Hobbit is not about faithfulness to the book. I really liked Tauriel, and I don't mind Legolas being there. It's the totally unnecessary slapstick goofball low-brow comedy and way over the top action scenes.Alfrid, Radagast, burping/farting, superman Legolas, seas of gold, oh my! Parts of the movies were just so wonderful (e.g. Thorin, Bilbo) . Was PJ on crack for the other parts?

Just imagine a gritty Hobbit with GoT or Vikings-type action, everybody taking damage, no cartoon characters. I hope beyond hope that PJ stays away since I think buffoonery is all he knows.


(This post was edited by Furcorn on Dec 10 2018, 2:19am)


squire
Half-elven


Dec 10 2018, 2:34am

Post #133 of 225 (3057 views)
Shortcut
     Well, no offense [In reply to]  

but we probably disagree on what being a "Tolkien fan" means, or what the "world" of Tolkien actually is.

"Why not give something a chance?" you ask. As I said: I did. I gave the first film a chance. By the second hour I was dying to be somewhere else. Only the manners my parents drilled into me kept me from walking out. I'm not interested in arguing the details - I left TORn's "Hobbit movie" forum in 2013 and have felt better ever since.

And I'll give the Amazon series a chance - but only one. As you say, you only live once, and time wasted is time lost forever.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


lurtz2010
Rohan

Dec 10 2018, 5:18am

Post #134 of 225 (3023 views)
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     A Tolkien fan is someone who enjoys the world Tolkien created isn’t it? [In reply to]  

It can be as simple as that. Like anything there are people who are more casual or more “hardcore” but why does that matter? Are you trying to say you understand his work more than most people and are a proper/true fan?

What I was curious about was what you thought the first film did so wrong that you actually felt like walking out. I know you don’t want to go into it but can you give it to me in one sentence atleast? I won’t argue back about it I’m just really curious.

As a true fan weren’t you a little bit interested in seeing Laketown or Mirkwood etc brought to life? Was a few “wrong” designs and story changes enough to turn you off that badly?

I know this thread isn’t about this.


2ndBreffest
Lorien


Dec 10 2018, 10:00am

Post #135 of 225 (2976 views)
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     I agree [In reply to]  

It would be good to see Amazon try to stay away from PJ's vision of Middle-earth as much as possible here, especially as depicted in his Hobbit. After seeing what PJ and co. did with the Hobbit, I agree, if the Amazon series doesn't look, feel, and sound like Tolkien, I will not be watching after the first episode. It was only morbid curiosity that led me to watch the last two Hobbit movies, and I can tell you, as a Tolkien fan, you made the right decision not to watch them. They are just awful.


(This post was edited by 2ndBreffest on Dec 10 2018, 10:11am)


Archestratie
Rohan

Dec 10 2018, 1:08pm

Post #136 of 225 (2946 views)
Shortcut
     Two different things [In reply to]  


In Reply To
I'm not a Tolkien purist, so my disappointment with PJ and The Hobbit is not about faithfulness to the book. I really liked Tauriel, and I don't mind Legolas being there. It's the totally unnecessary slapstick goofball low-brow comedy and way over the top action scenes.Alfrid, Radagast, burping/farting, superman Legolas, seas of gold, oh my! Parts of the movies were just so wonderful (e.g. Thorin, Bilbo) . Was PJ on crack for the other parts?

Just imagine a gritty Hobbit with GoT or Vikings-type action, everybody taking damage, no cartoon characters. I hope beyond hope that PJ stays away since I think buffoonery is all he knows.


It's the difference between a mass-market product (The Hobbit films) and a passion product (the LotR films). By the time the legal issues and marketing campaign for The Hobbit movies were finally settled, WB needed to make billions off the movies. PJ knew that, so he included something for everyone. In large part, he succeeded at his goal.

I don't give a care about the purists, they'll never be satisfied. The Hobbit movies turned out great for what they were meant to be, and the prospect of us getting anything better in our lifetimes is pretty slim. So I made my peace with the dumb stuff and just enjoyed the ride through Middle-earth.


Chen G.
Gondor

Dec 10 2018, 1:54pm

Post #137 of 225 (2939 views)
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     A product? [In reply to]  

This idea that commercial and artistic merit are somehow diameterically opposed is just misguided, honestly.

Every tentpole blockbuster IS a piece of product, including The Lord of the Rings. That doesn't at all mean that they are not art: all film is art by virtue of the fact that its an artistic medium.

Of course, the filmmakers' passion has to come through the film, and I don't think The Hobbit at all lacks in passion or vision. There is a lot of intricate craft inlaid into so many aspects of these films, packed into the corners of the frame.

I just think that people are searching for that passion in the wrong place. i.e. with Bilbo and his journey. But in watching the film, Jackson's true passion seems to be with Thorin and the Dwarves, and whenever he mines that, the films shine brightest.

Bilbo's is just another Hero's Journey. Sorry, but been there, done that.


Archestratie
Rohan

Dec 10 2018, 2:32pm

Post #138 of 225 (2932 views)
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     Well... [In reply to]  


In Reply To
This idea that commercial and artistic merit are somehow diameterically opposed is just misguided, honestly.


They aren't diametrically opposed. It's just that making a mass-market product has a higher probability of turning a large profit than making a passion project. The LotR movies were never meant to be a tentpole franchise. They were stuck at Christmas time because back then it was thought to be a bad time to release a movie. The only film that ever made money at that time was Titanic. WB believed, with good reason, that there was a high chance the LotR films failed miserably.

Once they succeeded, it was clear that there were billions to be made from the franchise, and that's why the Hobbit movies have a different purpose than the LotR movies.


Chen G.
Gondor

Dec 10 2018, 3:43pm

Post #139 of 225 (2914 views)
Shortcut
     No [In reply to]  

The Lord of the Rings was always intended to be a tentpole blockbuster, and it was.

It was a product AND a passionate work of art, no different than The Hobbit. What it had that The Hobbit didn't is this novel, pioneering sense to the production, because by that time it became an established franchise.


uncle Iorlas
Rohan


Dec 10 2018, 4:29pm

Post #140 of 225 (2926 views)
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     I don't know what Squire would say [In reply to]  

but if he said he knew the author's work better than most, he would be demonstrably correct, don't you think?

I, of course, gave up on PJ by the end of Fellowship. At the risk of having another post deleted by a perfectly impartial administrator, there's no meaningful differentiation to be made between his Hobbit movies and the LOTR ones. They're all dreck. Not, please note, because of their departures from the text, not really. It's because they're dumb. The writing is just dumb.

The thing about the text is just that good material was obviously available to him. It just makes it more unforgivable that he chose to set that aside in favor of his own hamhanded invention.


painjoiker
Grey Havens


Dec 10 2018, 4:35pm

Post #141 of 225 (2903 views)
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     What WB believed doesn't matter. [In reply to]  


In Reply To
WB believed, with good reason, that there was a high chance the LotR films failed miserably.


As they did not produce the Lord of the Rings.

Vocalist of the progressive doom rock band Mater Thallium.


Darkstone
Immortal


Dec 10 2018, 5:20pm

Post #142 of 225 (2896 views)
Shortcut
     Yes [In reply to]  

Were the LOTR films intended as prestige films?

Initially New Line head Robert Shaye assigned President of Production Michael De Lucas to oversee the LOTR films. At the time De Luca was in charge of the production of “prestige” films at New Line.


Were the LOTR films intended to turn a profit?

The initial budget of $300 million was financed in large part through German banks such as Deutsche Bank AG. German tax laws at the time were such that investors would get a lot of money back via tax write-offs if the film bombed. As a result New Line was looking at a pretty good profit if the films failed. Also Shaye sold off just about all the foreign distribution rights for cash up front. I’m sure he kicked himself later for that lack of confidence when the films became megahits.

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”


lurtz2010
Rohan

Dec 10 2018, 8:02pm

Post #143 of 225 (2872 views)
Shortcut
     Well 17 oscars and $3 billion would disagree with you [In reply to]  

Not that that matters but I don’t understand how you can just flat out say the LOTR movies are dumb. In terms of style and characterisation and dialogue I don’t see how you could expect better? What am I missing here?

Plus how would squire be demonstrably correct if he said he did know Tolkien’s work better than most? That would be slightly big headed wouldn’t it?


InTheChair
Rohan

Dec 10 2018, 8:30pm

Post #144 of 225 (2844 views)
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     Any director will put his footprint on a movie. [In reply to]  


Quote
Was PJ on crack for the other parts?


I think it was a result of Peter Jackson trying to replicate the flavor of the Rings movies. That's what the studio would have wanted.

Because all those things that can make the Hobbit movies difficult to stomach, were also found in the former trilogy it was natural for Jackson to include them.

A combination of not finding the same balance, and the Hobbit book less suitable for that kind of adaptation is what yields those other parts.

Or it might have been crack.


InTheChair
Rohan

Dec 10 2018, 8:35pm

Post #145 of 225 (2850 views)
Shortcut
     Kinky. [In reply to]  


Quote
Then there's Queen Beruthiel. Ah - could we imagine a steamy, doomed, satanic, vaguely kinky relationship between young Aragorn and Middle-earth's most qualified Witch? From which he rebounds, a sadder but wiser young God-king? And would Beruthiel wear a miniskirt or one of those Queen-of-the-Night flowing black robe-kits that always seem to feature stars glowing on the blackness of the shadowy billows of fabric?


Mini-skirt, long skirt, flowing black robes. Sometimes it makes no difference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9pIZh1jr-w

Although that might also be crack.


(This post was edited by InTheChair on Dec 10 2018, 8:37pm)


Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Rohan

Dec 10 2018, 8:37pm

Post #146 of 225 (2844 views)
Shortcut
     Well, this may be your opinion [In reply to]  

But it is not shared by me. I really wish people would use the three simple letters IMO more often - to avoid having their words sound like personal insults aimed at people who like the movies.

As for whether squire knows Tolkien's work better than most, well…

"Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not hold me back. But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy. Now I have taken my worst wound in this parting, even if I were to go this night straight to the Dark Lord."


Chen G.
Gondor

Dec 10 2018, 9:42pm

Post #147 of 225 (2819 views)
Shortcut
     It is and it isn't [In reply to]  


In Reply To
I think it was a result of Peter Jackson trying to replicate the flavor of the Rings movies. That's what the studio would have wanted.


Its what I wanted, too. I wanted a "The Lord of the Rings prequel" just as much as I wanted an adaptation of "The Hobbit." In other words, I wanted a prequel, not a spinoff.

Now, you could say that the two narratives are incongurous with each other, and on the face of it you'd be right. But, by reorienting the narrative of The Hobbit to center around Thorin, Jackson found a very natural way in incorporating the scale and tone of The Lord of the Rings into The Hobbit.

Unlike Bilbo's journey, which is more the quaint action-adventure story, Thorin's journey is much more in the Lord of the Rings wheelhouse: an epic journey of loss, recovery, greed, madness, war and tragedy.


InTheChair
Rohan

Dec 10 2018, 10:28pm

Post #148 of 225 (2810 views)
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     They're absent trough-out the thread. Why introduce them now? [In reply to]  


Quote
I really wish people would use the three simple letters IMO more often - to avoid having their words sound like personal insults aimed at people who like the movies.


Take them for granted instead. One thing worse than him not using those three letters is you using them for him.


entmaiden
Forum Admin


Dec 10 2018, 11:32pm

Post #149 of 225 (2800 views)
Shortcut
     Most of the discussions here [In reply to]  

are about opinions, and in the more than fifteen years I've been part of these boards, the more heated discussions center around whether someone's opinion is right or wrong. We often learn the most from people who disagree with us.


Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Rohan

Dec 11 2018, 2:14am

Post #150 of 225 (2766 views)
Shortcut
     Agreed [In reply to]  

I've learned quite a lot, actually, from the people on here whom I disagree with, and most of what I've learned has been helpful. But I've been fairly consistent in using "in my opinion" in many of my posts, so it's just a quirk of mine, maybe. Smile

"Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not hold me back. But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy. Now I have taken my worst wound in this parting, even if I were to go this night straight to the Dark Lord."

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