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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Transition problem between the two trilogies
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Dec 6, 2:26pm

Post #26 of 58 (415 views)
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Casting the New Guys [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
What I would truly love to see is a movie about the War in the North, a companion piece to LotR and TH both. Tolkien's few sentences about Dain and Brand have always moved me and I find intriguing his brief mentions of battle under the trees of Mirkwood and assaults on Lorien.

It could have Galadriel and Thranduil, Luke Evans as Brand and even Tauriel.Wink


Out of curiosity, how would you cast Thorin III (age: 153 years) or Bard II (age unknown, but presumably a young man)?

"For a brief time I was here; and for a brief time I mattered." - Harlan Ellison


Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Lorien

Dec 6, 7:26pm

Post #27 of 58 (384 views)
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I hope so too! [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe it's not necessary, exactly, but I'd love to see it. Also great to see would be Galadriel cleansing Dol Guldur in the end of ROTK, with Celeborn's army and Thranduil's army joining forces. That would be incredible.

"Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not hold me back. But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy. Now I have taken my worst wound in this parting, even if I were to go this night straight to the Dark Lord."


Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Lorien

Dec 6, 7:31pm

Post #28 of 58 (385 views)
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If I were doing a movie about the War in the NorthÖ [In reply to] Can't Post

I might cast Nick Bateman (or Drew Van Acker) as Bard II, and Kit Harrington as Thorin III.

"Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not hold me back. But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy. Now I have taken my worst wound in this parting, even if I were to go this night straight to the Dark Lord."


Oscarilbo
Lorien


Dec 6, 9:17pm

Post #29 of 58 (374 views)
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well... [In reply to] Can't Post

Just inserting Martin Freeman into FOTR prologue wouldn't need too much time from PJ. I bet that'd be the only tweak he'll personally do. Others may be technical fixing related (specially now it's unavoidably being converted to 4K) but he can only supervise more than be personally involved.

"The World is Changed, I feel it in the water. I feel it in the earth. I smell it in the air"


Chen G.
Rivendell

Dec 6, 9:48pm

Post #30 of 58 (367 views)
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I think other changes can be made [In reply to] Can't Post

A few ideas:

- A brief shot of Tauriel among the leaving wood-Elves in Fellowship of the Ring.
- Inserting a sketch of Azog (possibly from the Battle of the Five Armies credits) to the Red Book as Frodo is looking through it.
- A montage of war preparations in Erebor in Fellowship, and of actual fighting in Return of the King.
- a glimpse of an old Dwalin in Aragorn's coronation.
- a flashback to a montage of the last stand of Balin's company. Its possible to extend Gandalf's reading of the book of Mazarbul and place the flashback over that.
- add/tweak a few lines in ADR. I'd change a piece of Gimli's dialogue: "Gandalf, we could pass through the mines of moria. My cousin Balin took it from the Orcs. He'll give us a royal welcome." Because Fellowship of the Ring glosses over a lot of the backstory, you never get the sense that Moria was a recently-retaken Dwarf realm; and of course in The Hobbit its Azog's lair. It'll confuse the hell out of new audiences. Other changes may have to do with Saruman, and could be made using the late Sir Christopher's recordings of Tolkien audibooks, or with a voice actor.

Other stuff that's needed is creating a uniform look for Rivendell, and muting/editing around "you haven't aged a day".


(This post was edited by Chen G. on Dec 6, 9:56pm)


Chen G.
Rivendell

Dec 6, 10:04pm

Post #31 of 58 (377 views)
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Another good idea [In reply to] Can't Post

When Pippin looks into the Palantir, let him first see a quick image of the Dwarves in Bag End. It'll create a nice book-end, reminding the audience of how far along the story has come from that beginning, just as the story nears its conclusion.

Than it morphs into the eye of Sauron.


lurtz2010
Rohan

Dec 6, 10:38pm

Post #32 of 58 (370 views)
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Lol thatís just getting silly now [In reply to] Can't Post

PJ would be crucified if he added all that junk in, worse than George Lucas.

The two trilogies connect perfectly as they are. The only inconsistency is the way Bilbo starts writing his book and thatís only if you count the extended FOTR.


Chen G.
Rivendell

Dec 6, 10:48pm

Post #33 of 58 (369 views)
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No [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
PJ would be crucified if he added all that junk in, worse than George Lucas..


No.

From what I understand, George Lucas has incessently tweaked his films, as early as the time between the limited and wide releases, and between the different sound-mixes released during the theatrical run. Across the films' various iterations, he often made a change only to dial it back in a later edition. His changes extend even to the framing of the shots, by zooming into the frame at times.

Also, he tweaked two films which are not his to tweak, having been directed and at least in part written by people other than himself.

And lastly, he tweaked his films not only to knit his two trilogies together, but to actually recontextualize them, as if it were the story of Vader's redemption all along, where in fact it started very much as the adventures of Luke Skywalker.

None of these issues exist in this series: all films are Jackson's to do what he wants with; thus far, he didn't prove to be overly vigorous with changing his films retroactivelly, unlike Lucas; and lastly, he doesn't need to change what his films are about, just to knit them together a bit more closely.

And another important difference: Geroge Lucas essentially did everything in his power for his tweaked versions to supplant the original cut of the film. Jackson said he wouldn't want the original versions of his films discarded. If he was that kind of director, he would have discontinued the distribution of the theatrical cut and say that the extended cut is the "intended version of the film" - but he didn't. Hell, we already have his films on bluray, so there's no point fearing that the existing cut of the film will disappear in favor of a new cut.

As long as the existing cut of the films exists - let him tweak away all he wants. Almost all of what I suggested is little more than a glorified editing and ADR job.


(This post was edited by Chen G. on Dec 6, 10:53pm)


Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Lorien

Dec 6, 10:55pm

Post #34 of 58 (363 views)
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I think everything you suggested would be really good [In reply to] Can't Post

I wouldn't mind having any of that. Thranduil in the Last Alliance, is the one addition I would make to your list.

"Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not hold me back. But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy. Now I have taken my worst wound in this parting, even if I were to go this night straight to the Dark Lord."


Chen G.
Rivendell

Dec 6, 10:59pm

Post #35 of 58 (362 views)
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Interesting [In reply to] Can't Post

Philippa Boyens brought that idea up, although to be honest I fail to see its story merit.

Yes, it is part of the Tolkien canon (its where Oropher dies), but it doesn't do anything substantial to the narrative of the films. It'll be enough to see Thranduil fighting during a montage of the War in the North. You could also use it to show Radagast summoning the Eagles that appear in the Moranon, just to give that character his final nod.


(This post was edited by Chen G. on Dec 6, 11:05pm)


Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Lorien

Dec 6, 11:05pm

Post #36 of 58 (358 views)
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Radagast? I always assumed it was Galadriel [In reply to] Can't Post

Since she was the one who sent Gwaihir to retrieve Gandalf from Zirakzigil.

"Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not hold me back. But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy. Now I have taken my worst wound in this parting, even if I were to go this night straight to the Dark Lord."


Chen G.
Rivendell

Dec 6, 11:08pm

Post #37 of 58 (355 views)
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I thought so to [In reply to] Can't Post

With regards to Tolkien's canon: it makes sense that, with the fighting in Lorien having subsided, that Galadriel called upon the Eagles to go to the Moranon.

But within the context of the films, you want all your characters to pay off in the end; and Galadriel already has her place in Return of the King. Radagast could get the summoning of the Eagles.

Like my suggestions with Tauriel and Azog, it'd be brief enough that people who don't care for the characters won't mind, but enough for their presence to be narratively satisfying, within the context of the series.


Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Lorien

Dec 6, 11:13pm

Post #38 of 58 (352 views)
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Good point! [In reply to] Can't Post

I've always wondered what ever happened to Radagast, whether he was present in the Battle for Mirkwood. The one mention of him not being at home when Elrond's scouts came to Rhosgobel always implied a sense of mystery to my mind - as if something terrible might have happened to him.

"Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not hold me back. But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy. Now I have taken my worst wound in this parting, even if I were to go this night straight to the Dark Lord."


TheHutt
Gondor


Dec 8, 10:19pm

Post #39 of 58 (209 views)
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PJ [In reply to] Can't Post

...clearly indicated in the audio commentary for The Hobbit that he would rather reluctant to rerelease LOTR with Martin Freeman in the prologue. And if he were ever to do it, he would make sure that the original version would still be available.

I actually think PJ intentionally didn't replicate the Ring-finding scene in The Hobbit from LOTR's prologue (both scenes are quite different) so that nobody could make a fan-edit out of it.

As for all the suggestions in this thread. An interesting idea. But I personally would loathe all and every of such changes. And I am glad PJ seems to feel similar about it. :)

The Hobbit: An Unexpected Booklet - Custom Booklet Project



Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Lorien

Dec 8, 10:21pm

Post #40 of 58 (206 views)
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Why would you loathe such additions? [In reply to] Can't Post

It's a very strong word to use, is why I'm asking.

"Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not hold me back. But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy. Now I have taken my worst wound in this parting, even if I were to go this night straight to the Dark Lord."


Chen G.
Rivendell

Dec 9, 8:43am

Post #41 of 58 (166 views)
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Yeah [In reply to] Can't Post

Changing a film retroactivelly is an established Hollywood tradition, and it certainly has a sound logic to it: when you're editing a film for release, you never have enough time to shape it quite right. Re-editing it retroactivelly is a good solution, and being that its a more leisurely project you can make more levelheaded decisions, without the strees and fatigue of the entire filmmaking process up your neck. You can also accomodate for auidence feedback, being that the films have been out for quite some time.

Its all the more true in the case of serialized cinema such as this, where there is a good case for rediting the thing once all the pieces are released so that they fit seamlessly.

I was never worried that Jackson might replace the existing cut of the film. After all, the extended cut is a revised cut of the film, and yet never was the distribution of the theatrical cut discontinued.


(This post was edited by Chen G. on Dec 9, 8:44am)


skyofcoffeebeans
Rivendell

Dec 9, 1:31pm

Post #42 of 58 (143 views)
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There's something revolting about it [In reply to] Can't Post

It's hard to put my finger on it, but it also inspires such feelings in me. There's something repugnant about modifying a towering artistic achievement that has already penetrated the public psyche.


(This post was edited by skyofcoffeebeans on Dec 9, 1:32pm)


Noria
Gondor

Dec 9, 2:49pm

Post #43 of 58 (130 views)
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No idea about casting [In reply to] Can't Post

LOL I'm old and don't see as many movies and television series as I once did, so I'm not familiar with more than a handful of current actors.

However, PJ and his people are outstanding at casting - the casting is one of the great strengths of all six movies. I very much like that they don't go for current big stars but rather look for actors ranging from moderately known to completely unknown who fit their vision of the character. Of course budget has something to do with that too but it works.


Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Lorien

Dec 9, 2:50pm

Post #44 of 58 (130 views)
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These words amaze me - revolting, repugnant, loathing [In reply to] Can't Post

Because even though the trilogy is my three favorite movies of all time, I feel like it can only be made better by more material. I am of the strong opinion that the LotR trilogy is Far Too Short, and would benefit from being about an hour longer.

"Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not hold me back. But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy. Now I have taken my worst wound in this parting, even if I were to go this night straight to the Dark Lord."


Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Lorien

Dec 9, 2:51pm

Post #45 of 58 (130 views)
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It does work! [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't know whether it was PJ who cast Mortal Engines, but whoever it was got it spot on - Hugo Weaving, Hera Hilmar, Jihae, Stephen Lang, etc - all perfect!

"Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not hold me back. But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy. Now I have taken my worst wound in this parting, even if I were to go this night straight to the Dark Lord."


Noria
Gondor

Dec 9, 4:00pm

Post #46 of 58 (120 views)
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For me the changes proposed here are simply unnecessary [In reply to] Can't Post

I just don't care that the two trilogies don't mess seamlessly and don't think the movies would be better for being amended to make them do so. In fact I like the discrepancies. But neither do I care about continuity errors in general. As PJ says "Continuity is for pussies."Wink

However, I'm all for adding additional material to a new edition if they're hoarding some in a vault somewhere. More Middle-earth is always better, as long as the scenes are worth inclusion. Off the top of my head, I'd like to see the entire Company of Thorin meeting Thranduil in his throne "room", for the snark, as well as Faramir and Eowyn's wedding, for the completion of that arc.


Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Lorien

Dec 9, 4:47pm

Post #47 of 58 (115 views)
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Continuity errors bother me to no end [In reply to] Can't Post

Because I like fantasy to feel real, and solid, and I want to feel like I'm in a real world - and to be real, it has to be consistent, in my opinion.

But yes, Faramir & Eowyn's wedding most definitely should be in the movie!

"Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not hold me back. But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy. Now I have taken my worst wound in this parting, even if I were to go this night straight to the Dark Lord."


skyofcoffeebeans
Rivendell

Dec 9, 5:15pm

Post #48 of 58 (109 views)
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We donít disagree [In reply to] Can't Post

We only differ on the solution, which I would say is a new adaptation of the series, perhaps as the end game of the new Amazon show.

Additions to the original trilogy make as much sense to me as someone inserting material in Tolkienís trilogy or writing a sequel. Just doesnít jell. Makes me queasy / nauseous.


Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Lorien

Dec 9, 5:19pm

Post #49 of 58 (108 views)
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A new adaptation would be great - can I write it??? [In reply to] Can't Post

My 6-film screenplay is just desperate to see the light of day - or the greenlight of Hollywood! I will not let Amazon get to it before I do.

"Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not hold me back. But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy. Now I have taken my worst wound in this parting, even if I were to go this night straight to the Dark Lord."


Chen G.
Rivendell

Dec 9, 5:30pm

Post #50 of 58 (108 views)
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Continuity [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I just don't care that the two trilogies don't mess seamlessly and don't think the movies would be better for being amended to make them do so. In fact I like the discrepancies. But neither do I care about continuity errors in general. As PJ says "Continuity is for pussies."Wink


When I say seamless, I'm not referring to the mechanics of the plot. Rather, I'm talking about the overall structure and direction.

A lot of people don't like to think of The Hobbit as a direct prequel to The Lord of the Rings, but I adore that aspect of it, because its so well executed, structurally: the six films form a genuinely continuous tale with a defined central conflict in three acts.

The only hickup in this structure is that, per the sextet, its The Battle of the Five Armies that's the beginning of the War of the Ring, which - as you transition to The Fellowship of the Ring - doesn't feel quite right. It just doesn't have the globetrotting nature or the urgency that it needs to be a forth film out of six.

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