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Cirashala
Valinor
Dec 4 2018, 1:16am
Post #1 of 11
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Did the men of Umbar have access to metals?
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In the film, it would appear that there are chains and weaponry aboard the Corsair ships, thus implying that the men of Umbar had access to not only forges, but metal as a natural resource. The film also shows Easterlings (when Sam and Frodo use the elven cloak to hide) and they have metal armor as well.
The Haradrim, on the other hand, seem to have their weaponry made more out of bamboo and other more "natural" resources, rather than metals, implying that the lands of Harad do not have rich metal deposits as a natural resource. And yet, much of Harad, especially Near Harad, seems to be far more desert-ish, like how one might imagine the Sinai desert or even the Sahara to be (and if scholars are correct, then Harad corresponds roughly with northern and southern Africa, respectively).
Umbar is located on what appears to be a delta emptying into a southern area of the Bay of Belfalas (or so I remember it- didn't sleep well last night). So I would imagine more plant life there, which makes sense with the bamboo.
However, Umbar directly borders Near Harad to the north and Far Harad to the south. If that's the case, and Near and Far Harad didn't have any metals in it that could be worked, then how would the men of Umbar have had enough metals to make their armor, weapons and chains?
Or did they simply steal them as pirates to other ships that came from Gondor and other realms?
Thoughts? :)
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squire
Half-elven
Dec 4 2018, 1:42am
Post #2 of 11
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It's possible to overthink such questions
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By which I mean, I don't think Tolkien gave a hoot whether the men of Umbar or of the Harad mined and forged their own metalwares, or traded for them from regions that did have such products - like, say, Mordor.
The more one studies the actual material histories of real-world cultures in the pre-modern era, the more one realizes the effects of trade and intercourse in spreading both raw materials and methods of exploiting such materials, from the places where resources were, to the places where resources were needed. One could spin any number of stories to account for how one might choose to costume and equip the warriors of Middle-earth - and one could well imagine that the designers of the films did spin some story or another to justify each of their ultimately merely picturesque choices. (I remember their elaborate excuses for why and how Aragorn has a torch to carry in the Mines of Moria!)
Pictureseque. That is, good looking or romantically enticing. Not authoritative in the least. We should always remember that our author, Tolkien, wrote next to nothing about any of this stuff, preferring to evoke than to specify!
And yes, I've always admired the New Line films' more or less fabulous production designs for the LotR trilogy.
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Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Rohan
Dec 4 2018, 1:48am
Post #3 of 11
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Cirashala was asking a question and asking for our thoughts, in relation to the filmverse - not Tolkien's works, which say next to nothing about Umbar to begin with. If you feel that the question is not worth answering, why answer it at all?
"Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not hold me back. But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy. Now I have taken my worst wound in this parting, even if I were to go this night straight to the Dark Lord."
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Cirashala
Valinor
Dec 4 2018, 1:53am
Post #4 of 11
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but isn't that what these forums are for? 
Tolkien definitely seems to be lacking in much of the way of economy, climate (except where it mattered to the plot), etc in the films. And yet, we Tolkienites still seem to have discussions quite often on these very topics, presumably because we know they existed simply because the products of such economy did, though not the economy that made these products possible in the first place.
We also know that the characters had to "visit the bushes" quite often, simply due to biology, but Tolkien doesn't mention that either. He doesn't mention the actual acts of reproduction in various characters, but they had kids so it clearly existed.
Still, it is fun to speculate about such things and to wonder. In times of war, there is cooperation (Mordor could well have been the source of these raw metals) amongst allies, BUT Tolkien also makes it clear that many realms had become more or less insular in nature (elf lands, Rohan and Gondor were sundered in many ways, etc) by the time of the War of the Ring. That sort of thing (orc attacks, wargs, war, Nazgul, etc) would undoubtedly have a substantial impact on trade, thus making it more likely, not less, that various realms had to rely on their own natural resources to equip their armies and ships (assuming they didn't already have them prior to war).
Now, the east was more or less collectively allied against the Free Peoples, so I doubt trade was restricted between those entities. This could very well be the reason why the ships had such accutrements as chains and metal weaponry and armor, etc.
But if this trade were unobstructed, then how is it the Haradrim were jilted when it came to raw metals? Or were they simply too dang hot in the deserts of Harad to GET to their destination that they stuck with the cooler, more non-conductive bamboo?
My writing and novels:
My Hobbit Fanfiction
My historical novel print and kindle version
My historical novels ebook version compatible with all ereaders
You can also find my novel at most major book retailers online (and for those outside the US who prefer a print book, you can find the print version at Book Depository). Search "Amazing Grace Amanda Longpre'" to find it.
Happy reading everyone!
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Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Rohan
Dec 4 2018, 2:10am
Post #5 of 11
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Well, was the East collectively allied?
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Remember, the Blue Wizards had a huge impact on the east, and caused enough unrest and turmoil to prevent the eastern lands from ever coming together in great enough force to destroy Gondor. It is entirely possible, in my opinion, that Harad, which had often been a nation subjugated by Gondor, might have been ruled by Kings (or Queens?) of Gondorian descent. Such rulers might have been looked down upon by their neighbors in Far Harad and Khand, and who can say whether or not this affected trade? The metal used by the Corsairs did look Mordorian in origin, (is Mordorian a word?), but the men of Umbar were also descended from Numenoreans of great skill and craft. The Mouth of Sauron was a Black Numenorean, learned in magic. It's entirely possible they had their own culture of metalworking descended from those days of former glory, that they might have kept out of the hands of Haradrim kings; I feel certain that their naval power probably gave them the ability to protect their city-state against such an attack from Harad. All this is, obviously, speculative, but it's fun to just talk about and consider all the various possibilities. Why not? Amazon's moving pretty slowly; we need to talk about something for the next two years while we're waiting for them.
"Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not hold me back. But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy. Now I have taken my worst wound in this parting, even if I were to go this night straight to the Dark Lord."
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Cirashala
Valinor
Dec 4 2018, 2:15am
Post #6 of 11
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Umbar may not have gotten along well with their neighbors (or it was more a grudging alliance because both were mutually afraid of and/or worshiped Sauron). I hadn't thought of that. Good catch!
Lol I'm guessing you have a lost package sitting in an Amazon distribution facility somewhere?  The boards do seem rather slow of late- not sure why, but I'm trying to respect the "no more than 5 posts on the first page" in the forums and with all these questions running through my head it's proving rather difficult...
Someone else needs to post stuff so I can ask my questions lol!
My writing and novels:
My Hobbit Fanfiction
My historical novel print and kindle version
My historical novels ebook version compatible with all ereaders
You can also find my novel at most major book retailers online (and for those outside the US who prefer a print book, you can find the print version at Book Depository). Search "Amazing Grace Amanda Longpre'" to find it.
Happy reading everyone!
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squire
Half-elven
Dec 4 2018, 2:34am
Post #7 of 11
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"the Blue Wizards had a huge impact on the east"
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I'm not sure that's something we can say with certainty, that is, say as if it is an unquestioned fact in the Tolkien legendarium.
It's based on the late-in-life change of mind that Tolkien made to his earlier story of the Blue Wizards falling into doctrinal error, fomenting cults and mystical traditions in the East. His later idea, that their influence was a positive and not a negative one in the struggle of the West against Sauron, is attractive of course. But the fact that both ideas existed in his mind, after The Lord of the Rings was in print, reminds us that his later speculations about the world he wrote about in such detail are just that, an author's speculations.
It seems misleading to our less-well-read colleagues on this site to say the Blue Wizards were "this" or "that". Their status, activity, and moral worth are entirely up in the air, relative to the more certain events we read about in the LotR and its appendices. That's really the main point of my criticism of any speculation we might be enjoying in this and associated threads: we should, I believe, continuously phrase our thoughts about Tolkien's marvelous world, in areas about which he was not specific in his published work, in conditional not absolute terms. I think it is impossible to ignore the author's own lack of certainty in guessing what might have been, or what might be, outside his written framework.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
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Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Rohan
Dec 4 2018, 2:52am
Post #8 of 11
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I take the approach that I believe Karen Fonstad also took
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combining all his various stages of thought process, whether they be early or late, into one. It's not the best approach, sure, but it seems wrong to just utterly reject everything that Tolkien wrote outside of the published books - certainly you and other posters draw on those unpublished and sometimes contradictory later works to prove a point all the time. But in general, I like to lean towards the stuff that he wrote in later life, since that seems to have been the time when he took the greatest interest in accurately piecing together the histories of Middle-earth.
But whatever, I can't bother arguing about this. I'm not trying to mislead anybody.
"Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not hold me back. But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy. Now I have taken my worst wound in this parting, even if I were to go this night straight to the Dark Lord."
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Dec 4 2018, 3:55am
Post #9 of 11
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If you have lots of questions...
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And not enough threads to post them in, you can post multiple questions as separate replies to one header post, and have the discussions develop as separate subthreads. For instance:
Root post: Cirashala's Queries
Reply: Query 1 - What is the Rangers' range?
Reply: Query 2 - Why can't Elves answer a simple yes or no question?
Reply: Query 3 - Did the Entwives form a sisterhood of the traveling plants?
Silverlode
Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known.
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Dec 5 2018, 1:24am
Post #11 of 11
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I amused myself in coming up with them. Glad you got a chuckle too. 
Silverlode
Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known.
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Oh I'm sure it is lol
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