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Victariongreyjoy
Lorien
Nov 25 2018, 4:25pm
Post #1 of 11
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About Sauron's servants in the second age.
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I find it sometimes incredible how he could overrun Gil-Galad's kingdom with main forces like orcs, trolls and easterlings. Did he have any other servants besides them? Where the nazgul present during that time? Could wargs, bats, crebain crows or those great beasts that dragged Grond be animals he used against the elves and numenoreans?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Nov 25 2018, 8:23pm
Post #2 of 11
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The Nazgûl first appeared in their undead state around the year 2251 of the Second Age.
"For a brief time I was here; and for a brief time I mattered." - Harlan Ellison
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Victariongreyjoy
Lorien
Dec 14 2018, 9:43pm
Post #3 of 11
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Maybe what Tolkien said about Sauron's other servants where just something just thrown out? I'm beginning to believe his main forces when he went to war against the Noldor's Eregion realm, were orcs, goblins, trolls, easterlings, haradrim and maybe some corrupted pre-black numenoreans. Only other evil creatures I could think off he used were Mumakil and Easterling's horses. Perhaps bats as well. I don't think wargs, because it seems they were used later in the third age.
(This post was edited by Victariongreyjoy on Dec 14 2018, 9:44pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Dec 14 2018, 10:48pm
Post #4 of 11
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About Sauron's servants in the second age. I find it sometimes incredible how he could overrun Gil-Galad's kingdom with main forces like orcs, trolls and easterlings. Did he have any other servants besides them? Where the nazgul present during that time? Could wargs, bats, crebain crows or those great beasts that dragged Grond be animals he used against the elves and numenoreans?
When you write about Gil-galad's kingdom, do you mean the Havens of the Falas? Morgoth's armies overran the Havens in the First Age, not the Second. So, no Nazgûl yet and no corrupted Númenóreans as Númenor had yet to be founded.
Morgoth's main forces would have consisted of Orcs, backed up by Balrogs and eventually Dragons. He would have also commanded Werewolves, Wargs, Trolls, evil Men, and Vampire-creatures such as Thuringwethil.
Maybe what Tolkien said about Sauron's other servants where just something just thrown out? I'm beginning to believe his main forces when he went to war against the Noldor's Eregion realm, were orcs, goblins, trolls, easterlings, haradrim and maybe some corrupted pre-black numenoreans. Only other evil creatures I could think off he used were Mumakil and Easterling's horses. Perhaps bats as well. I don't think wargs, because it seems they were used later in the third age.
Sauron's armies would have been mostly Orcs and evil Men. The Balrogs were mostly destroyed in the First Age and Dragons were destroyed or fled into hiding. He would have had Wargs and Werewolves though, as well as Trolls.
"For a brief time I was here; and for a brief time I mattered." - Harlan Ellison
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Dec 14 2018, 11:01pm)
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Victariongreyjoy
Lorien
Dec 14 2018, 11:00pm
Post #5 of 11
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I was talking about Sauron in the second age, after he tricked Celebrimbor for making the one ring and after that, went to war against Gil-Galad Eregion. I think his main forces against them were orcs, goblins, trolls, men from Harad and Rhun. And maybe the animals or creatures he used were simply Mumakil(I believe Harad already has some of them back then), Easterling's horse cavalary and perhaps bats. I don't think wargs were utilize by the dark forces until the third age.
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Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Rohan
Dec 14 2018, 11:01pm
Post #6 of 11
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May I interject with one little question I had that relates to this?
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Can we assume that Werewolves and Vampires were utterly destroyed at the end of the First Age, or are there any references to them in any of Tolkien's works in the Second or Third Ages, because I for one cannot remember any off the top of my head? I've scoured LotR and the Hobbit, and found none, but since I don't possess a copy of UT or Letters, I was wondering if there was anything in there, perhaps?
Or should I have started a separate thread for this question?
"Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not hold me back. But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy. Now I have taken my worst wound in this parting, even if I were to go this night straight to the Dark Lord."
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Victariongreyjoy
Lorien
Dec 14 2018, 11:02pm
Post #7 of 11
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Yes, I believe Sauron after the first age, didn't have access to these creatures.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Dec 14 2018, 11:13pm
Post #8 of 11
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I have generally assumed that the huge Wargs that attacked the Fellowship in Eregion were Werewolves as, when they were slain, their bodies disappeared with the rising of the sun. Similarly, the giant bats from the Battle of Five Armies might have been debased descendants of Sauron's Vampire-servants of the First Age (much as the spiders of Mirkwood were descended from Ungoliant and Shelob), though I am only guessing.
"For a brief time I was here; and for a brief time I mattered." - Harlan Ellison
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Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Rohan
Dec 14 2018, 11:20pm
Post #9 of 11
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I've always wondered why the corpses disappeared, but I hadn't come to that conclusion. It would make sense, though.
"Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not hold me back. But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy. Now I have taken my worst wound in this parting, even if I were to go this night straight to the Dark Lord."
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Victariongreyjoy
Lorien
Dec 15 2018, 5:09pm
Post #10 of 11
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So maybe a few werewolves survived into the third age? Weren't they Maiar as Sauron? Don't think he could have controlled them easily, but they may formed a alliance with him.
What about giant bats? They seem to be just wild flying animals, and I guess Sauron would easily get them in his control. Since they occupy Dol Guldur and Gundabad. Do u think he used them during his wars against Eregion and werewolves as special forces?
This is just a hypotheses, but I wonder if Sauron managed to corrupt a few numenoreans living in Middle-Earth back then. Maybe spies or field commanders for his orc army.
(This post was edited by Victariongreyjoy on Dec 15 2018, 5:18pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Dec 15 2018, 6:39pm
Post #11 of 11
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One of Sauron's titles in the First Age was Lord of Werewolves. He is credited with their creation and commanding them as their master. At least once he took the form of a great wolf.
The giant bats of Gundabad seem to have been intelligent enough to form an alliance with the Orcs and provide cover for them against the sunlight at the Battle of Five Armies. That might put them on or near the same level as Wargs. Still, we don't read of them being used in such a fashion before or after, do we?
I don't think we can say precisely when Númenóreans first entered the service of Sauron. Going by Tolkien's "Tale of Years" I would guess it was after Second Age 1800.
"For a brief time I was here; and for a brief time I mattered." - Harlan Ellison
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Dec 15 2018, 6:44pm)
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