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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Lord of the Rings:
On elves and wargs

Cirashala
Tol Eressea


Nov 24, 3:18am

Post #1 of 11 (864 views)
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On elves and wargs Can't Post

Hello all!

I just watched my "annotated" version of LOTR this past week (meaning I skip scenes so that I can get through it faster if I don't have 12 hours to do so), and I have a question about the warg attack in TTT.

When Legolas crests the hill and sees the sheer number of warg riders, he seems very, very concerned- shocked even. You can definitely see worry in his face. And yet, he's an excellent warrior, and so is Aragorn and Gimli, and presumably the few numbers of soldiers Theoden has left (including himself).

So if they have a fair number of warriors, and Legolas has an excellent range with his bow, why was he so concerned? Was it concern about keeping them away from children, women and the elderly? Concern for his friends (Aragorn and Gimli)?

Or is this one of the few moments where we glimpse Legolas' fear of his own mortality? I don't mean that he's not immortal as an elf, in that he can't die of disease or old age, but that he CAN be slain in battle. And I have no doubt that he knows this. I can imagine that elves fear that element of their mortality, or death in general, since death as a whole is a fairly foreign concept to them. You can see this when Aragorn "falls" (warg attack) and when Gandalf falls (Moria) in his face, as though he can't comprehend the grief he feels and the concept of death being very, very real.

So do you think that this is one of the rare moments where Legolas was, in fact, afraid (the other being when he despaired about their being grossly outnumbered at Helm's Deep)?

And that does beg another question- do you think it possible that even Legolas, warrior and fast archer that he is, could be overwhelmed if he were outnumbered enough by either orcs or wargs? They were pretty outnumbered at the Falls of Rauros for sure, and I wonder what would have happened had the Uruk-hai stuck around to finish the job instead of running off with Merry and Pippin when they did.

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Happy reading everyone!


Intergalactic Lawman
Rohan


Nov 24, 11:12pm

Post #2 of 11 (827 views)
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Hmmm... [In reply to] Can't Post

I think you may be going deeper than you need to here Smile

I think Legolas has the same reaction anyone would have "Oh great, Orcs!" Everyone present would have wanted to make it to Helms Deep without a confrontation (which is coming regardless) and everyone/as many as possible in one piece! They had been discovered out in the open and were seriously vulnerable. Once at Helms Deep they can get all the non warrior types to safety in the caves and come up with a game plan...

Does that make sense?


Cirashala
Tol Eressea


Nov 25, 2:51am

Post #3 of 11 (817 views)
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Eh, possibly lol [In reply to] Can't Post

I suppose it comes from having a husband in the mental health field (counselor/therapist). It's not just knowing what happens/what characters do, but rather also what they are thinking/emoting/feeling, etc that really interests me.

In other words, I often wonder what's going on inside the characters' heads in various situations ;)

I agree that the people were very vulnerable, especially as women and children were with them (and elderly). No doubt everyone was concerned for their safety, especially the warriors who were responsible for holding the wargs and orcs at bay while the non-fighters got the heck out of there.

I guess my question was- would Legolas have been just as worried had they only been orcs and not orcs on wargs? I would think wargs would be a far more formidable foe, and a far more equal match to the horses of the Mark than foot soldiers alone. I agree that any confrontation in such a location, and comprising the group of people they did, would be a cause for concern.

I was just wondering if the TYPE of antagonist was more concerning than simply a confrontation alone. Aka was it the presence of WARGS specifically that increased his concern?

Additionally, I wonder (purely speculation) how elves would fare against wargs in general- especially since they typically have the ability (this one does, anyway) to tame/have mastery over the animals far more than an ordinary human. Do you think elves could tame a warg in the same fashion? Or are wargs too far gone evil-wise to be tamed? If so, how did orcs tame them enough to be able to ride them?

My apologies if this sounds a bit confusing- my kids had a sleepover last night so my friends in retail could get sleep after Black Friday, and the kids stayed up til midnight...

My writing and novels:

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Happy reading everyone!


StingingFly
Lorien


Nov 25, 3:26am

Post #4 of 11 (809 views)
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Good questions [In reply to] Can't Post

I think he was genuinely perplexed as to what to do. Elves are not used to marching slowly over exposed terrain. He saw a massacre unfolding before his very "elf eyes" and could do nothing to stop it. I think he was relieved (and surprised) to see how fast Theoden was able to muster a force to counter the attack.

A single archer wouldn't stand a chance against a pack of Wargs, and Legolas knew this. I believe he made the decision to die, defending the people of Rohan, but taking down as many Wargs as he could...acting as..."a diversion"

I don't think he was afraid either here or in Helm's Deep. Here he was concerned for the people and in Helm's Deep I believe it was just his frustration boiling over. He disagreed with Theoden, but was stuck following his orders due to his loyalty to Aragorn.


Cygnus
Bree


Nov 25, 3:44am

Post #5 of 11 (805 views)
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It's possible [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

A single archer wouldn't stand a chance against a pack of Wargs, and Legolas knew this. I believe he made the decision to die, defending the people of Rohan, but taking down as many Wargs as he could...acting as..."a diversion"

.

Now that's a possibility that I hadn't thought of. I never looked at it that way but there's no reason to think you're not right.

"I found it is the small things.....everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keeps the darkness at bay.....simple acts of kindness and love." - Gandalf


Darkstone
Immortal


Nov 25, 3:54pm

Post #6 of 11 (753 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post

I know first hand the very primal fear one has when a herd of large animals come full speed at you so I wouldn’t blame Legolas one bit. A cavalry charge can break even the most disciplined of foot soldiers if they’re unfortunate enough to get caught on open ground. (See the orcs breaking at the Rohirrim’s charge at Pelennor Fields.) One remembers the Russian Tsars regularly put down peasant revolts with Cossack cavalry. Big animals are naturally scary to people on foot, which is why even today municipalities like New York, London, Tokyo, Toronto, Oslo, and others use horse mounted police for crowd control.

******************************************
"Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!"
"Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in
thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond
all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled
mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."
"Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may."
"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"
"But no living man am I! I am Eowyn, daughter of Theodwyn!"
"Er, really? My mother's name was Theodwyn, too!"
"No way!"
"Way!"
"Wow! Let's stop fighting and be best friends!"
"Cool!!"

-Zack Snyder's The Return of the King


Cirashala
Tol Eressea


Nov 25, 7:56pm

Post #7 of 11 (742 views)
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Makes sense [In reply to] Can't Post

On an unrelated note, I love your footer Darkstone Laugh My husband got a good kick out of it too lol.

I know- that's why the Rohirrim charge at Pelennor is to date one of my most favorite scenes in all of filmdom :)

I was just curious to know if an elf would experience the same fear as a human would in this situation. I don't blame Legolas for being afraid in this moment; I was just wondering if he would feel fear or if he would be (as someone posted above) more just annoyed at it. Given that elves are immortal, except when slain in battle, I wonder if an elf would actually be more afraid in a scenario where they were grossly either outnumbered or outnumbered by both orc and beast because of that.

And just out of curiosity- how many wargs do you think Legolas could take on (and win)? He did pretty well during the melee at the Falls of Rauros- but that was against other foot soldiers, not orcs mounted on wargs.

My writing and novels:

My Hobbit Fanfiction

My historical novel print and kindle version

My historical novels ebook version compatible with all ereaders

You can also find my novel at most major book retailers online (and for those outside the US who prefer a print book, you can find the print version at Book Depository). Search "Amazing Grace Amanda Longpre'" to find it.

Happy reading everyone!


Intergalactic Lawman
Rohan


Nov 26, 1:33am

Post #8 of 11 (724 views)
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Hmmm... [In reply to] Can't Post

How many Wargs by himself?

In the scenario we see I'd say the Legolas in LOTR's could take quite a few... I'd say 5 - 10 before he was trampled/killed. (If he had the trees as cover/to climb - a lot more)
The Legolas as presented in The Hobbit? All of them Unimpressed


(This post was edited by Intergalactic Lawman on Nov 26, 1:33am)


Cirashala
Tol Eressea


Nov 26, 3:08am

Post #9 of 11 (712 views)
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Lol [In reply to] Can't Post

I prefer to think that Legolas didn't exist in TH films Wink Him and Tauriel were SOOOOO poorly written that it would have been better had they omitted them, I think...but that's a discussion for another time. Let's just say the Legolas in MY Hobbit FF will be written as the Legolas of LOTR was, not as the petulant spoilt jealous gravity-defying brat he was in TH films Crazy

Anyway, I would say that your figure would probably be a pretty good guess. I think Legolas is often portrayed as one who is invincible, so seeing those scenes where he is, in fact, vulnerable and in legitimate danger (despite his knife and archery skills) are a relief to me. Yes, elves are immortal- age and disease-wise (though I do wonder if an elf's wound could get infected? Even if they don't necessarily die from it?), but they can certainly be killed (and sadly, in Tolkien's legendarium, they are- especially in the Sil).

I think the warg scene is one such scene- where Legolas does stand a very real chance of dying. And part of me wonders if he's as worried as he looks in that scene because of that. I know he stated he was worried at the Falls of Rauros, but it's hard to tell then if he's worried more about the uruks, or about them getting the ring.

With the warg chase, that very real worry factor (the ring) isn't there, leading me to wonder on his state of mind when he saw just how many wargs there were.

My writing and novels:

My Hobbit Fanfiction

My historical novel print and kindle version

My historical novels ebook version compatible with all ereaders

You can also find my novel at most major book retailers online (and for those outside the US who prefer a print book, you can find the print version at Book Depository). Search "Amazing Grace Amanda Longpre'" to find it.

Happy reading everyone!


Darkstone
Immortal


Nov 26, 9:37am

Post #10 of 11 (698 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
On an unrelated note, I love your footer Darkstone My husband got a good kick out of it too lol.


Cool! Thanks!




In Reply To
I was just curious to know if an elf would experience the same fear as a human would in this situation. I don't blame Legolas for being afraid in this moment; I was just wondering if he would feel fear or if he would be (as someone posted above) more just annoyed at it. Given that elves are immortal, except when slain in battle, I wonder if an elf would actually be more afraid in a scenario where they were grossly either outnumbered or outnumbered by both orc and beast because of that.


Depends. If it’s a manic-depressive Elf of The Sil who at the drop of a hat laughs, cries, sings silly songs, dances in the woods, swears dark oaths, kills their brethren, slaughters for sport, and dies of a broken heart then I’d think they’d go into a blind berserker rage determined to take as many foes with them once they realized they were doomed.

On the other hand, what with Jackson’s portrayal of Elves as Vulcans on Xanax mild annoyance seems about right.

But to me he seems to be mentally lining up the sequence of his shots prior to springing into action.



In Reply To
And just out of curiosity- how many wargs do you think Legolas could take on (and win)? He did pretty well during the melee at the Falls of Rauros- but that was against other foot soldiers, not orcs mounted on wargs.


Well, remember a warg and a rider are two separate foes. It took Gamling to kill the warg and Legolas to kill the orc during the initial encounter and they still lost Hama. I’d say Legolas kills several wargs of the initial charge with his bow then at the last minute rushes into the mass of riders to start slashing with his white knives. And as we see, any combatant caught on foot in the midst of the melee between horse and warg riders doesn’t last long.

******************************************
"Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!"
"Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in
thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond
all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled
mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."
"Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may."
"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"
"But no living man am I! I am Eowyn, daughter of Theodwyn!"
"Er, really? My mother's name was Theodwyn, too!"
"No way!"
"Way!"
"Wow! Let's stop fighting and be best friends!"
"Cool!!"

-Zack Snyder's The Return of the King


Cirashala
Tol Eressea


Nov 27, 3:08am

Post #11 of 11 (631 views)
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ROFL [In reply to] Can't Post

Vulcans on Xanax SlySlySly I'm dying right now!

And I thought you summarized the Silmarillion elves rather well Wink

On a more serious note- that is a good point about lining up shots. Come to think of it, the look also seemed a bit calculating as well, so this very well could be :)

So in a nutshell you're saying that once Legolas either a) runs out of arrows, or b) gets overrun, he's pretty much done...am I interpreting that correctly?

My writing and novels:

My Hobbit Fanfiction

My historical novel print and kindle version

My historical novels ebook version compatible with all ereaders

You can also find my novel at most major book retailers online (and for those outside the US who prefer a print book, you can find the print version at Book Depository). Search "Amazing Grace Amanda Longpre'" to find it.

Happy reading everyone!

 
 

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