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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Nov 17 2018, 9:30pm
Post #76 of 106
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A bit like bringing a garden hose to a bonfire, isn't it?
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Ruins all the fun. 😉
Silverlode
Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known.
(This post was edited by Silverlode on Nov 17 2018, 9:31pm)
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Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Rohan
Nov 17 2018, 9:36pm
Post #77 of 106
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To be fair, all that the book says about the Mouth is…
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that he was "a tall and evil shape", which hardly sounds human, and that he was "robed all in black, and black was his lofty helm". Yes, I think that Peter Jackson's team was probably more inspired by the description of the Mouth's horse: "huge and hideous, and its face was a frightful mask, more like a skull than a living head, and in the sockets of its eyes and in its nostrils there burned a flame", but that's beside the point. PJ does take things literally (the Eye, the Mouth, etc), but I don't necessarily regard it as a fault. I liked how the Mouth looked.
The death of Saruman…not so much. And Christopher Lee himself was pretty upset about it, since he believed it was too much like a parody of his multiple horror-movie deaths.
"Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not hold me back. But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy. Now I have taken my worst wound in this parting, even if I were to go this night straight to the Dark Lord."
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Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea
Nov 17 2018, 9:55pm
Post #78 of 106
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It’s well documented how upset Christopher was about the scene being cut out of the movie, but I’ve never heard of him being mad about the manner of his demise.
I actually recall him saying he thought the scene was his best in the trilogy.
"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that." - Viggo Mortensen
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Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Rohan
Nov 17 2018, 10:24pm
Post #79 of 106
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It's in the Brian Sibley biography of Peter Jackson
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He quotes PJ as saying that Christopher got "quite anxious about Saruman's Dracula-style death and then about the fact that we decided to cut his death altogether".
"Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not hold me back. But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy. Now I have taken my worst wound in this parting, even if I were to go this night straight to the Dark Lord."
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Cygnus
Lorien
Nov 18 2018, 6:08am
Post #80 of 106
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I'm in the middle of watching Return of the King right now. Faramir wasn't exactly Denethor's favorite son but as I recall there is no mention of Denethor ever finding out that Faramir released the Ring Bearer. That would have made the strained relationship even worse. In the book did Denethor ever find out that the Ring was in Faramir's grasp?
"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you." - Gandalf
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Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Rohan
Nov 18 2018, 2:24pm
Post #81 of 106
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In the book, yes, Denethor does find out
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And it does indeed strain their relationship to the breaking point. Denethor tells Faramir: "Boromir was loyal to me and no wizard's pupil. He would have remembered his father's need, and would not have squandered what fortune gave. He would have brought me a mighty gift."
There's an argument between Denethor and Gandalf where Denethor claims that if he had the Ring he would have kept it in "the deep vaults of this citadel" and Gondor would "not then shake with dread under this gloom, fearing the worst, and our counsels would be undisturbed." He tells Gandalf that "If you do not trust me to endure the test, you do not know me yet."
To which Gandalf replies, quite simply: "Nonetheless I do not trust you."
Obviously there's a lot more, but those are just some of the highlights of what is one of the best scenes in the book, I think. That conversation fills Denethor with hopelessness, since he believes that Sauron can only be defeated by using the Ring, and he realizes now that because of his son's choice to release Frodo, he will never get his hands on it. It makes him very bitter against Faramir, and may be the reason he foolishly sends Faramir back to Osgiliath.
"Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not hold me back. But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy. Now I have taken my worst wound in this parting, even if I were to go this night straight to the Dark Lord."
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Cygnus
Lorien
Nov 18 2018, 4:06pm
Post #82 of 106
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Thanks for the response. I'm surprised that wasn't in the movie....but then again, I suppose when I read the books I'll find a lot of things that will surprise me that weren't in the movies. Most of them were probably left out because of time limitations but this issue could have been addressed by Denethor simply uttering a single sentence so the viewer would have known.
"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you." - Gandalf
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Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Rohan
Nov 18 2018, 4:14pm
Post #83 of 106
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I'm trying to remember, but I can't recall right now whether it's in the extended edition, maybe?
"Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not hold me back. But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy. Now I have taken my worst wound in this parting, even if I were to go this night straight to the Dark Lord."
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Nov 18 2018, 9:15pm
Post #84 of 106
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Hmm. It seems to me that the Mouth of Sauron (book) was clearly human.
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At its head there rode a tall and evil shape, ... The rider was robed all in black, and black was his lofty helm; yet this was no Ringwraith but a living man. The Lieutenant of the Tower of Barad-dûr he was, and his name is remembered in no tale; for he himself had forgotten it, and he said: ‘I am the Mouth of Sauron.’ But it is told that he was a renegade, who came of the race of those that are named the Black Númenóreans; The Black Numenoreans didn't stop lose their human shape by worshipping Sauron. Even the Nazgul appear to Frodo as humans.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Nov 18 2018, 9:22pm
Post #85 of 106
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Denethor's character in the books
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Mind you, I'm no fan of Denethor! But, you'll find the books give him a lot more respect than the movies did, mainly because they had more time to. I particularly like this comparison of Gandalf and Denethor and their psychic duel from Pippin's viewpoint:
[Denethor] turned his dark eyes on Gandalf, and now Pippin saw a likeness between the two, and he felt the strain between them, almost as if he saw a line of smouldering fire, drawn from eye to eye, that might suddenly burst into flame.
Denethor looked indeed much more like a great wizard than Gandalf did, more kingly, beautiful, and powerful; and older. Yet by a sense other than sight Pippin perceived that Gandalf had the greater power and the deeper wisdom, and a majesty that was veiled. And he was older, far older.
Tolkien, J.R.R.. The Lord of the Rings: One Volume (p. 757). Houghton Mifflin Harcourt. Kindle Edition.
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Chen G.
Gondor
Nov 18 2018, 10:22pm
Post #86 of 106
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He's certainly more sympathetic in the book
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I don't think Tolkien ever thought of Denethor as a villain outright. I've seen some interpertations of him as such. I think it really depends on how the character comes across to the reader.
As Tolkien constructs it, we're to understand that Denethor had used the Palantir at least once since learning of Frodo's quest, and had NOT surrendered its purpose to Sauron - an action which would have surely led the quest to a bitter end. This is all the more impressive when comparing him to Saruman - a Maia, who was unable of doing the same.
In the films, there are already so many characters that fleshing out Denethor's backstory would have been one too many. We as an audience can understand his tragedy through the extended scene where he sees a vision of Boromir fade into Faramir, and given the scene in The Two Towers where he sends Boromir to Rivendell - he's responsible for the death of his firstborn.
(This post was edited by Chen G. on Nov 18 2018, 10:24pm)
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Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Rohan
Nov 18 2018, 10:38pm
Post #87 of 106
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But the Mouth in the movie was also human
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At least as far as I can remember.
"Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not hold me back. But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy. Now I have taken my worst wound in this parting, even if I were to go this night straight to the Dark Lord."
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Belegdir
Lorien
Nov 18 2018, 11:42pm
Post #88 of 106
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Yes, in the EE the Mouth of Sauron is human
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However, it's significantly deformed. A human would make sense since humans are more easily turned to Sauron's will than the other races.
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Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Rohan
Nov 18 2018, 11:50pm
Post #89 of 106
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In my original post about the Mouth of Sauron I said that the description of him as "a tall and evil shape" hardly sounded human - I knew he was human, but I was just noting that as a defense of the more monstrous representation of the Mouth in the movie. CuriousG might have thought that I was saying the Mouth wasn't human at all - if that was the case, I apologize for the misunderstanding!
"Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not hold me back. But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy. Now I have taken my worst wound in this parting, even if I were to go this night straight to the Dark Lord."
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Nov 19 2018, 1:18am
Post #90 of 106
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That is what I thought you said, but no worries. Thanks for clarifying what you meant.
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Cygnus
Lorien
Nov 21 2018, 7:08pm
Post #91 of 106
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I just finished all 6 movies again. It's always sad to finish them. Don't ask me why...especially when I know I can start them up again anytime I want. Sometimes I wonder why some scenes choke me up more than others. When Aragorn bows to the 4 hobbits at the end and everybody else does as well, that is real emotional to me...maybe it's because I was always the shortest kid for my age and I like seeing short folks getting their due respect. (I did end up at 5'9" but I was a real late bloomer) or maybe it's just because that scene was AWESOME!
"I found it is the small things.....everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keeps the darkness at bay.....simple acts of kindness and love." - Gandalf
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Belegdir
Lorien
Nov 22 2018, 5:03pm
Post #92 of 106
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That scene always brings tears to my eyes as well
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Not big snotty ones, but the ones you choke back and claim it was dust. That's it. That scene is terribly dusty.
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Cygnus
Lorien
Nov 23 2018, 7:27pm
Post #93 of 106
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In the book is it left to the reader to imagine the destination of Frodo, Bilbo and Gandalf or does it take the end further than the movie does?
"I found it is the small things.....everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keeps the darkness at bay.....simple acts of kindness and love." - Gandalf
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Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Rohan
Nov 23 2018, 7:33pm
Post #94 of 106
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Frodo, Bilbo and Gandalf sail away into the west to the Undying Lands of Valinor. This is a special privilege; Gandalf goes because he's actually an angel from Valinor to begin with. Frodo and Bilbo are allowed to go with him because they were Ringbearers - much later, Sam also goes into the west because he too carried the Ring for a brief time. A whole bunch of information about Valinor can be found in The Silmarillion.
The book itself, however, ends at the same place as the movie, with Sam returning to Hobbiton and his iconic line: "Well, I'm back".
"Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not hold me back. But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy. Now I have taken my worst wound in this parting, even if I were to go this night straight to the Dark Lord."
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Nov 23 2018, 8:52pm
Post #95 of 106
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When you finish reading LOTR, definitely read the appendices. There's more story information in there, including what happens to the remaining Fellowship (and some of their descendants) after Frodo sails west.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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BountyHunter
The Shire
Nov 24 2018, 5:56pm
Post #96 of 106
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There's nothing wrong with the cgi on Treebeard. It's just young people thinking everything thing old looks outdated because it's old. Hate to say it but cgi stuff doesn't look any more realistic or less realistic today in movies than it did in Jurassic Park.
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Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Rohan
Nov 24 2018, 9:19pm
Post #97 of 106
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I love all the CGI on LotR except for Treebeard. All of it. I love the Eye of Sauron, and I'm the only one in my family who does. I do not think "everything old looks outdated" - first of all, since when is the Lord of the Rings old? Methinks you jump to conclusions.
"Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not hold me back. But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy. Now I have taken my worst wound in this parting, even if I were to go this night straight to the Dark Lord."
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Cygnus
Lorien
Nov 26 2018, 6:02am
Post #98 of 106
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When you finish reading LOTR, definitely read the appendices. There's more story information in there, including what happens to the remaining Fellowship (and some of their descendants) after Frodo sails west. I can't wait to see what happens to them. That sounds exciting.
Here's another question...Gandalf likely knew right away that Bilbo had found a ring but at what point did Gandalf realize that Bilbo had found The One Ring? Now that I think of it....at what point did Bilbo even know that it was the One?
"I found it is the small things.....everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keeps the darkness at bay.....simple acts of kindness and love." - Gandalf
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Nov 29 2018, 9:54am
Post #99 of 106
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Good question. Bilbo never knows exactly what the Ring is while he possesses it, or he would not have passed such a dangerous artifact on to his beloved nephew. Though Bilbo was starting to suspect that the Ring's influence on him wasn't good.
Gandalf takes a maddening number of years to figure out that Frodo basically has a doomsday nuclear weapon in his possession, and the bad guys of course want it. I think the long timespan is necessary for the plot, and also a reflection of studying lore in a time where centers of lore were few and far between and you reached them on horseback, plus the keepers of that lore weren't all that cooperative.
Gandalf's urgency in the movies follows a more logical approach that a viewer would expect--get that thing out of the Shire lickety split, and get it somewhere safe like Rivendell. In the books he dawdles away, but that dawdling helps forces in action create a lot of threat for Frodo, hence the arduous journey to Rivendell, which normally was a routine journey, but routine journeys don't make for excitement.
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Cygnus
Lorien
Nov 30 2018, 1:23am
Post #100 of 106
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In the movie scene after exiting the mountain when Bilbo first got the Ring you can tell by Gandalf's reaction that he suspected something because he seemed to read Bilbo's mind. I think he suspected that Bilbo found a ring but not The One Ring. Are Gandalf's thoughts at that moment in the book?
"I found it is the small things.....everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keeps the darkness at bay.....simple acts of kindness and love." - Gandalf
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