Our Sponsor Sideshow Collectibles Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien
Do you enjoy the 100% volunteer, not for profit services of TheOneRing.net?
Consider a donation!

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Main:
What is the Chance of the Valar Fighting for the Free People During the Third age?

Tolkien R.J.J
Bree


Nov 16, 3:20am

Post #1 of 4 (321 views)
Shortcut
What is the Chance of the Valar Fighting for the Free People During the Third age? Can't Post

“Long years in Arda [Melkor] held dominion over most of the lands of earth.”
-Valaquenta

If Sauron had the upper hand and was winning the war of the ring would the valar send help? Or, even, why did the valar not destroy Sauron in the third age the first place? I think there are a few reasons. In the first age of course the valar intervened and fought against Melkor and Sauron, yet they are not perfect divine beings but created by Eru, just look at Melkor. When the valar did come to ME it was usually by the efforts of a few to convince the rest to act.Even during the first age they most often neglected middle earth even when arda was under the dominion of melkor and darkness. Even those who lived in ME like melian who married an elf, left Doriath to destruction and returned to the west.

“They [valar] became more and more enamored of valinor, and went there more often and stayed their longer. Middle-earth was left to little defended, and too little protected against Melkor.”
-J.R.R Tolkien Myths Transformed

The valar resided in Aman, not middle earth, and they rarely came to ME and only fought in two battle [against morgoth who was no longer in ME in the third age] in the first age and none in the second.

“Middle earth they [valar] left it for long unguarded, and the lordship of Morgoth was uncontested save by the valor of the Noldor”
-Of men the sillmarillion


In Morgoths Ring Ainulindale D it reads “But in valinor the valar dwelt with all their kin and folk and because of the beauty and bliss of that realm they came seldom now to Middle earth” What was omitted the earlier version C where yavanna and orome came to ME to visit. Tolkien seemed to be moving towards a more distant valar even in the first age. So the valar in part neglected a corrupted Middle Earth [by morgoth] because they dwelt in paradise, hard to blame them. So instead of protecting middle earth they

“The valar took refuge from Melkor....and built and fortified Valinor.”
-Myths Transformed

It might seem odd but another reason was their love of middle earths natural beauty and not wanting to see it further destroyed caused some valar to not intervene with its affairs. In the later sillmarillion it reads “Aule was grieved, and it is said that he [and others of the valar] had before been unwilling to strive with Melkor, foreboding the hurts of the world that must come of that strife.” Morgoth had put some of his power into the matter of earth itself and caused corruption and the “fall”, to destroy him would also hurt the earth itself.

“These lands upon either side of sirdon were ruinous and desolate because of the war of powers.”
-Grey Annals the war of the Jewels

But other reasons also must have played a role. The valar must of felt betrayed by the children of iluvatar. In the first age the elves betrayed them and left paradise for middle earth and brought death to valinor. A few times elves sent boats west to ask the valar for help. They all went unanswered and it appears at times they were killed by Osse.

“His ship [Voronwe] foundered in a great storm within sight og land, and he alone survived for Ulmo saved him from the wrath of Osse.”
-Grey Annals the war of the Jewels

“During the period of the exile of the Noldor the valar had for the time being cut all communications between Aman and Middle-earth.”
-MR -Athrabeth Finrod Andreth


Men more often sided with Morgoth in the fist age and fought against the valar in the war of wrath. In the second age Amadil went west to ask the valar for help but was denied. Than the numoneeans attacked the valar and almost brought destruction to valinor. As a result eru remade the world and removed valinor and it became distant from ME.

“We of the eldar believe that men are often a grief to Manwe, who knows most the mind of illuvatar.”
-Morgoths Ring Ainulindale D [latest version]


Eru might not have allowed the valar to interfere after this change in the world. So we read in Morgoths Ring “Many other valinor creatures....have not yet been seen upon Middle-earth and perchance never now shall be, since the fashion of the world has changed.”

“Valinor and even eressea are removed, remaining only in the memory of the earth.”
-Letters 131

And we read in the later sillmarillion during the first age Orome hunted melkors servants “but the valaroma [his horn] is blown no more upon Middle-earth since the change of the world and the fading of the elves.” So we see also the fading of the elves as a cause for the neglect of ME by the valar. The Sillmarillion in of Fenor it reads “Melkor most hated the Eldar....because.... he saw the reason for the arising of the valar, and his own downfall.” Andreth [human] in the first age says

“The valar do not trouble us [mankind] either with care or instruction.”
-Andreth Athrabeth Finrod AH Andreth

“There came no vala to guide men, or summon them to dwell in valinor and men have feared the valar, rather than loved them, and have not understood the purposes of the powers being at variance with them.”
-Of men the sillmarillion

“The dealings of the Ainur have indeed been motley with the elves.”
-On the beginnings of days


And by the war of the ring, very few Noldor elves were left on ME and even those few were leaving. The war of the ring was the time for mankind to rule ME.

“Manwe knew that before long the dominion of men must begin. And the making of history would then be committed to them.... Manwe knew of Sauron, of course.... Sauron however was a problem that men had to deal with.... Sauron's first defeat was achieved by the Numenoreans alone.”
-Myths Transformed

The strength of the valor was also greatly reduced by the third age and might have contributed to their reluctance to act. Feanor argued in the first age after the destruction of the two trees they could not even protect Valor from Morgoth how could they protect Middle-earth. In Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth Tolkien says of the valar “They had sufficient power for their functions.” Their main functions were to create the world, help the Noldor elves and most of all to fight morgoth. By the third age those were no longer needed functions and the valar became obsolete and likely since the power Eru granted them was no longer in need, their power was reduced. After the destruction of Morgoth we read in myths transformed “it was also, in a sense the end of manwe's prime function and task as Eldar king.”

“The valar were like architects..... they become less and less important as the plan was more and more nearly achieved. Men will also fade when they complete their function.”
-J.R.R Tolkien Myths Transformed

Further the valar had lost a great deal of power creating the world as well as healing the world's ills of Melkor and the war of wrath. By the third age it is likely they were reduced a good deal, even maiar such as Gandlaf it is said, was scarred of Sauron and did not want to go to ME. Sauron's power was great.

“Sauron was greater, effectively, in the Second Age, than Morgoth at the end of the First.”
-MR Myths Transformed

Of course one would say, the Valar did act, they sent the Istari. True. Would they just have sent more maiar to help if the battle went ill for the free peoples? I am not sure. Maiar at times sided with Melkor and Sauron and at least one of the Istari, Sauroman, turned against the free people. In this way the valar hurt rather than helped the free peoples. The two blue wizards did nothing to help the free people and most likely followed sauroman's lead.

“I really do not know anything clearly about the other two – since they do not concern the history of the N.W. I think they went as emissaries to distant regions, East and South, far out of Númenórean range: missionaries to 'enemy-occupied' lands, as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.”
-J.R.R Tolkien Letters 211

If this is true and these wizards started cults [evil magic of sauron/sauroman] for the eastlings, than three of the maiar helped Sauron rather than the free people. Of the two who helped the free people. Radagast did little as he fell in love with birds and the animals of Mirkwood and did not concern himself with anything outside of his animals. The only maiar that fulfilled his role was Gandalf. Surly this was not the intention of the valar. I think it could be argued they hurt rather than helped the free peoples. Asking the valar for more help might do the same.

“I am a Christian, that fact can be deduced from my stories.”
-J.R.R Tolkien

“I am in fact a Hobbit (in all but size). I like gardens, trees and unmechanized farmlands; I smoke a pipe, and like good plain food (unrefrigerated), but detest French cooking; I like, and even dare to wear in these dull days, ornamental waistcoats. I am fond of mushrooms (out of a field); have a very simple sense of humour (which even my appreciative critics find tiresome); I go to bed late and get up late.”
J.R.R Tolkien

“Tolkien was a lifelong enemy of big government in every form, not just the harsher forms we find in soviet communism, German Nazism, or Italian fascism, but also as it manifested itself in British democratic socialism and the mongol state capitalism in other parts of the west.”
-Jonathan Witt and Jay W The Hobbit Party: The vision of freedom that Tolkien got and the west forgot


CuriousG
Half-elven


Nov 18, 10:07pm

Post #2 of 4 (281 views)
Shortcut
Discretion is the better part of the Valar [In reply to] Can't Post

[I owe that joke to noWizardme.]

Tolkien's official reason for the Valar not intervening directly in the Third Age is that in previous fights with Morgoth, much of Middle-earth was destroyed (such as Beleriand), and they reasoned that by sending emissaries to do their work for them, they were sparing the land as a whole from great destruction.

That logic doesn't really work for me, much as I like Tolkien. I think instead of being logic-driven, he's being author-driven in that for a good story, you don't have gods show up and fix everything for the mortals, and a story about mortals struggling against a divine being like Sauron is far more compelling if they do it on their own with only a little help from the magic world.

But think about how the Last Alliance of Elves and Men was able to defeat Sauron, who was at the height of his power and had the One Ring. Yes, it happened at great cost in lives, but did Gondor disappear under the sea like Beleriand? Was Mirkwood lost? Or was Mordor blasted to bits? No. So, if they could win this war with conventional weapons, why couldn't the Valar send their forces to fight with swords and bows and catapults, etc, and win presumably far more quickly and with less loss of life to the good guys? Logically, I think, they could have. But easy victories don't make for great epics.


Tolkien R.J.J
Bree


Nov 19, 12:03am

Post #3 of 4 (272 views)
Shortcut
Quote? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi, I was just wondering if you remembered where you read what Tolkien had said on this subject. That the valar did not interfere to avoid hurt to ME. That would help us understand why they did not.

Thanks.

“I am a Christian, that fact can be deduced from my stories.”
-J.R.R Tolkien

“I am in fact a Hobbit (in all but size). I like gardens, trees and unmechanized farmlands; I smoke a pipe, and like good plain food (unrefrigerated), but detest French cooking; I like, and even dare to wear in these dull days, ornamental waistcoats. I am fond of mushrooms (out of a field); have a very simple sense of humour (which even my appreciative critics find tiresome); I go to bed late and get up late.”
J.R.R Tolkien

“Tolkien was a lifelong enemy of big government in every form, not just the harsher forms we find in soviet communism, German Nazism, or Italian fascism, but also as it manifested itself in British democratic socialism and the mongol state capitalism in other parts of the west.”
-Jonathan Witt and Jay W The Hobbit Party: The vision of freedom that Tolkien got and the west forgot


CuriousG
Half-elven


Nov 19, 1:47am

Post #4 of 4 (265 views)
Shortcut
Quote--hmm [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, either he said it somewhere in Letters, and I can't find it, or I'm thinking of the Valar's reluctance to fight Morgoth after he killed the Two Trees and I got my context wrong:

Quote
For so grievous had been the hurts of Middle-earth in the war upon Utumno that the Valar feared lest even worse should now befall; whereas the Hildor [Men] should be mortal, and weaker than the Quendi to withstand fear and tumult.

Tolkien, J.R.R.. The Silmarillion (Kindle Locations 1814-1815). Houghton Mifflin Harcourt. Kindle Edition.
I thought it might be in Unfinished Tales in the Istari chapter, but couldn't find it there. But my memory keeps thinking Tolkien justified the soft approach of the Istari as the Valar not wanting more continental catastrophes. But my memory can be creative, so maybe I made it up. Smile

 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.