Our Sponsor Sideshow Collectibles Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien
Do you enjoy the 100% volunteer, not for profit services of TheOneRing.net?
Consider a donation!

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Lord of the Rings:
Rewatching
First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 Next page Last page  View All

Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Lorien

Nov 15, 11:44pm

Post #51 of 102 (1068 views)
Shortcut
I like that explanation! [In reply to] Can't Post

I will now think of him as "Legolas' disowned brother" whenever I watch that scene!

"Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not hold me back. But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy. Now I have taken my worst wound in this parting, even if I were to go this night straight to the Dark Lord."


Cygnus
Bree

Nov 16, 3:55am

Post #52 of 102 (1054 views)
Shortcut
Information galore [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks Darkstone. This place is a wealth of information. I am so amazed every time I log in. Here's one that I'm sure is easy. At the beginning of The Return of the King am I correct in assuming that it is only the extended version in which Saruman is found dead at the base of the tower? It must be since I don't have the extended version. Is he found dead in the book?

"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you." - Gandalf


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Nov 16, 6:05am

Post #53 of 102 (1050 views)
Shortcut
Yes... [In reply to] Can't Post

in the Extended version, he dies.

In the book, Saruman's fate plays out quite differently than in the movie. But the chapters in which that is dealt with include a subplot that was left out of the movies entirely (aside from a couple of brief references that only readers would recognize), so they invented a new scene to wrap up his story. I hate to spoil the surprises the book holds for a first-time reader, so I won't say more unless asked.

By the way, I don't think I've said welcome to you yet. It's great to have you here. Smile

Silverlode

Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known.




(This post was edited by Silverlode on Nov 16, 6:06am)


CuriousG
Half-elven


Nov 16, 4:09pm

Post #54 of 102 (996 views)
Shortcut
The Dead Marshes [In reply to] Can't Post

The interesting thing (to me) about the bodies/ghosts in the Dead Marshes is that they are from both sides of the war: orcs plus Elves and good Men. But in death, they seem to share the same sinister character, and even Elvish ghosts are as dangerous to good people like hobbits as orc ghosts.


skyofcoffeebeans
Rivendell

Nov 16, 4:28pm

Post #55 of 102 (996 views)
Shortcut
Not quite "invent," per se... [In reply to] Can't Post

More of a convergence of plot threads than pure invention.

Aside from the spiked wheel, of course. ;)


Cygnus
Bree

Nov 16, 5:55pm

Post #56 of 102 (992 views)
Shortcut
Reading the book [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the response. After considering your post I think it is a good idea to hold off on a lot more questions. Reading the books are going to be a new adventure for me and I'm excited about it. I wouldn't want to ruin too much. Anytime I'm with a group of people and LOTR pops up (often because I initiated it and/or have my Gandalf shirt on....LOL) I am usually the most well informed person in the room but here I feel like just a rookie. After years of doing nothing but watching the movies I am ready to take it to the next step. Maybe I'll even find out exactly what it was that Gandalf said when he fell in the Mines of Moria. (if anybody wants to spoil it I won't mind). It must have been frustrating for super fans like you folks to watch the movies after reading the book. Maybe frustrating wouldn't be a good word. Would bittersweet descibe it better?

"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you." - Gandalf


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Nov 16, 6:59pm

Post #57 of 102 (990 views)
Shortcut
I think..... [In reply to] Can't Post

They are not like the Oathbreakers; not actually the ghosts or spirits of the people who died there, any more than the Barrow-wights were the kings and queens the mounds were made for. They are illusions made by the wights who inhabit the area, to entrap the unwary traveler. Perhaps the wights were already there when the battle raged, and happily preserved the impressions of all who fell. Or perhaps they moved in after the battle, like vultures of the spirit world, and decided to preserve the ambiance. But unless I've forgotten something in the text, I don't think they are the actual spirits of the ancient combatants.

Silverlode

Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known.




Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Nov 16, 7:10pm

Post #58 of 102 (990 views)
Shortcut
That's pretty much [In reply to] Can't Post

What I was referring to, just trying not to mention any specifics, since Cygnus apparently hasn't seen or read Saruman's demise yet and he talked of him "being found dead". The underlying reason he ends up dead may be roughly the same in book and movie, but I think that's still spoiler territory in this case.

Silverlode

Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known.




Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Nov 16, 7:28pm

Post #59 of 102 (987 views)
Shortcut
I assumed they were the spirits of the dead [In reply to] Can't Post

and all had been corrupted by the influence of Mordor (just as the land itself has been affected). But your theory intrigues me.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauronís master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Nov 16, 7:48pm

Post #60 of 102 (981 views)
Shortcut
The anticipation before FOTR was released [In reply to] Can't Post

was a combination of dread and excitement. Dread, lest they destroy or "Hollywoodize" a beloved story as so many fantasy adaptations before had done, and excitement at the possibility that maybe, just maybe it would be ok and I wouldn't have to go around endlessly trying to explain how the book was totally different and better when people said "You like THAT?" You see, so many favorite books of mine have been made into pretty awful movies, and fantasy before LOTR seemed to be all shiny swords and cliches. It wasn't until we started seeing some of the first photos of sets and costumes and saw the realism they went for that I began to really think they might bring it off.

Watching the movies was a mixture of euphoria and dissonance. You'd have a scene that was like they'd just gone in and pulled out a section of my own imagination while reading the book and put it up on a screen. For instance, the Shire was amazingly perfect, it was so surreal finally seeing it "for real" after years of picturing it in my mind it was overwhelming. And then you'd hit something they changed or did very differently than I had pictured it and that would be a jolt, while my brain went "Wait, that isn't right...that didn't happen...what's going on?" and scrambled to catch up. It usually took me 3 or 4 viewings to get used enough to the changes to settle down and just view the movie on its own merits. And that was true for each film as it came out. A few of the additions and changes I loved, most I tolerate, some I would still prefer to be otherwise. Eventually I made my peace with nearly everything...nearly. There.are still one or two changes that will just never stop bothering me and I have been known to skip on rewatches. I won't list them here, because they would be book spoilers for you.

I will say, as much as I love the movies (which is very much), I love the book even more. I don't know how much reading you do in general, and I know that some people find it challenging the first time through (Tolkien was not a simple writer), but I think it amply repays the effort. There's even more Middle-earth left for you to discover. And you can always come here and talk about it as you go. There's nothing more fun than watching someone discover something you love for the first time. We love new reader discussions.

Silverlode

Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known.




Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Nov 16, 8:01pm

Post #61 of 102 (1007 views)
Shortcut
Is there any reason... [In reply to] Can't Post

That the spirits of the Elves would not return to Mandos, or the spirits of men pass beyond the circles of the world when they died in battle there? What would bind the spirits of honorable warriors to that place? Sauron could make wraiths of those he gave rings to, but, blasted and cursed as the lands about Mordor are, I don't think they could automatically corrupt and hold the souls of everyone who died there. That's my reasoning, anyway.

Silverlode

Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known.




Chen G.
Rivendell

Nov 16, 8:03pm

Post #62 of 102 (1000 views)
Shortcut
Wraiths are tricky [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
They are not like the Oathbreakers; not actually the ghosts or spirits of the people who died there, any more than the Barrow-wights were the kings and queens the mounds were made for. They are illusions made by the wights who inhabit the area, to entrap the unwary traveler. Perhaps the wights were already there when the battle raged, and happily preserved the impressions of all who fell. Or perhaps they moved in after the battle, like vultures of the spirit world, and decided to preserve the ambiance. But unless I've forgotten something in the text, I don't think they are the actual spirits of the ancient combatants.


Tolkien does nod to the idea that the barrows were occupied by the actual spirits of the fallen, when Merry seems to be momentarily possesed by one.

Of course, the whole concept of spectres and wraiths doesn't quite work within the framework of Tolkien's rigid cosmological concept of mortality: i.e. the idea that the gift of Men cannot be taken, and therefore the concept of keeping the spirit of a man in the world after his physical demise would be impossible.

Cinematically, the encounter with the dead Elf is one of several pieces lifted from The Fellowship of the Ring: the confrontation with the Barrow Wight (moved to the Marshes), the Warg attack in Eregion (moved to the road to Helms Deep) and Old Man Willow (moved to Fangorn).


Belegdir
Lorien


Nov 16, 8:07pm

Post #63 of 102 (996 views)
Shortcut
My experience is somewhat similar [In reply to] Can't Post

It was exciting to the run up to the film's release, and I was nervous the first time I watched it.

My first viewing was more a mixture of relief than anything else. It wasn't terrible. I enjoyed it and it was close to the book.

My second viewing was more critical. I noticed things and thought, 'I'm not sure about that' or 'That's not what happened.'

My third viewing was more relaxed. I knew what the differences were and could accept them as alterations for the audience that had not read the books.

I watch them now as love letters to Tolkien's works and enjoy them immensely for that. I can separate the differences and enjoy each for what they are. The books are best and always will be, but PJ's films are a wonderful visual representation that I can return to as well.


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Nov 16, 9:33pm

Post #64 of 102 (996 views)
Shortcut
See, now you're using logic and facts [In reply to] Can't Post

against which a perfectly good UUT cannot stand. Tongue

Yeah I think you're right - your reasoning makes sense.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauronís master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


CuriousG
Half-elven


Nov 16, 10:49pm

Post #65 of 102 (979 views)
Shortcut
Good explanation--thanks! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


CuriousG
Half-elven


Nov 16, 10:56pm

Post #66 of 102 (985 views)
Shortcut
Euphoria and dissonance [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Watching the movies was a mixture of euphoria and dissonance. You'd have a scene that was like they'd just gone in and pulled out a section of my own imagination while reading the book and put it up on a screen. For instance, the Shire was amazingly perfect, it was so surreal finally seeing it "for real" after years of picturing it in my mind it was overwhelming. And then you'd hit something they changed or did very differently than I had pictured it and that would be a jolt, while my brain went "Wait, that isn't right...that didn't happen...what's going on?" and scrambled to catch up.

You describe my initial theatrical experience quite accurately.

On rewatching, I'm always a little disappointed by how dark, grungy, and sinister Bree appears in the movie when it seemed like a little rougher version of the Shire but still very Shire-like, with the nice twist that Men and Hobbits co-existed happily, which sets one up for the contrast later of Elf/Dwarf enmity and Rohan Men distrusting Elves.

But I think for the movie's sake, and for such a short scene, it needed to stress peril over pleasantry, so I understand the choice. Nevertheless it's always jarring to get there in FOTR and think, "Wait, that's not Bree!"


CuriousG
Half-elven


Nov 16, 10:58pm

Post #67 of 102 (980 views)
Shortcut
Logic and facts? On the Internet??? We need to break Silverlode of this silly habit. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Cygnus
Bree

Nov 17, 4:12am

Post #68 of 102 (965 views)
Shortcut
Responses [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you so much for these responses. I enjoyed every one of them. Most folks I've talked to have said that the 3 Lord of the Rings movies followed the books closer that the 3 Hobbit movies did. Do you folks agree? It is rare that people say they liked a movie more than the book. From my experiences with other movies I can understand why. I don't think I've ever read a book AFTER I've seen a movie so this experience will be interesting...especially since it was SIX movies.

"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you." - Gandalf


Starling
Half-elven


Nov 17, 4:48am

Post #69 of 102 (957 views)
Shortcut
I like the LOTR films more than the books [In reply to] Can't Post

*Runs in and out of thread*Shocked
And PS, welcome to TORn!




Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea


Nov 17, 5:02am

Post #70 of 102 (956 views)
Shortcut
*shrieks* [In reply to] Can't Post

Cool

Starling, how could you?!

Tongue

The novel comes out on top for me, but we're literally comparing my favorite book of all time and my favorite films of all time. Both are the standards by which I judge all others in their respective mediums.

I was actually watching the opening to the Theatrical Cut of The Fellowship of the Ring just a little while ago, and I still get wistful remembering sitting down in that movie theater on December 19, 2001. *sigh* Smile

"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that." - Viggo Mortensen

(This post was edited by Aragorn the Elfstone on Nov 17, 5:03am)


Belegdir
Lorien


Nov 17, 12:35pm

Post #71 of 102 (920 views)
Shortcut
Whaaaa? [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess that's okay. *scratches head*


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 17, 1:44pm

Post #72 of 102 (912 views)
Shortcut
Most definitely! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Thank you so much for these responses. I enjoyed every one of them. Most folks I've talked to have said that the 3 Lord of the Rings movies followed the books closer that the 3 Hobbit movies did. Do you folks agree?


Jackson does take some liberties with the LotR films, but mostly to rearrange some elements and condense or cut others due to lack of time. The seventeen years between Bilbo's farewell party and Frodo's departure from the Shire is reduced to approximately a single year; Tom Bombadil, Goldberry and the night on the Barrow-downs are all eliminated; the scouring of the Shire becomes nothing more than a vision seen in the Mirror of Galadriel; etc.

For the Hobbit trilogy Jackson expands on many of the brief scenes in the book while adding new characters and situations--some based in the LotR and its appendices and some completely new.

"For a brief time I was here; and for a brief time I mattered." - Harlan Ellison


Cygnus
Bree

Nov 17, 7:56pm

Post #73 of 102 (882 views)
Shortcut
Two versions [In reply to] Can't Post

Even though I don't have the extended version I did see it at some point. It was either on television or (more likely) I had rented it before I bought my own. I was pretty surprised when I got my own to see that Gardalf decided to let Saruman go since I was expecting to see him impaled. Also, I was surprised and disappointed to not see the creature (as I recall, he had a lot of big teeth) guarding the gate when our heroes decided to attack and create a distraction for Frodo and Sam at the end of The Return of the King.
Edit: hmmm, how did that angry looking red frown face get on my post? Hopefully it's gone. For those of you who don't know, I'm a pretty low tech guy and it takes me awhile to figure things out..

"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you." - Gandalf

(This post was edited by Ataahua on Nov 17, 8:34pm)


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Nov 17, 8:35pm

Post #74 of 102 (867 views)
Shortcut
Fixed. :) / [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauronís master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Nov 17, 9:24pm

Post #75 of 102 (867 views)
Shortcut
Oddly enough... [In reply to] Can't Post

The Theatrical version is kind of closer to the book in that Saruman's story does not end there. But since they were leaving out the subplot which supplies the circumstances of his death in the book, they just finished him off with the tower and the spiky wheel and got on with the rest of the story.

The "creature with the teeth" is called the Mouth of Sauron. The name refers to him being the official spokesperson of Mordor, but Peter Jackson decided to be literal and horrifying about the Mouth part. He's in the book, though not described as looking quite that way; that was creative license on the part of the film makers. Visual medium, and all that.

Silverlode

Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known.



First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 Next page Last page  View All
 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.